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at sea replenishment question - 6/8/2016 3:24:36 AM

jcjordan

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My old mind has forgotten this so I may have it wrong overall but can you resupply CV sorties using at sea replenishment TF w/ an AE/AKE ship like you can resupply BB/CA/CL/DD ammo. If so when does it start plus ship type needed? I've searched here but got no answers

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RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/8/2016 4:21:15 AM

rustysi

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That's cruel. Your old mind is seeking info from my old mind.

I did a cursory search of the manual and could not find precise info. What I do recall is:

1) Only AE vessels can perform unrep.
2) It won't occur 'til late war (don't recall time frame).
3) Its an Allied function only. (No such capability for Japan).
4) The AE must have a capacity that is => the rearm cost of the weapon.

Edit: Out of time right now. If you don't get a more definitive answer I'll try again tomorrow.

< Message edited by rustysi -- 6/8/2016 4:25:29 AM >

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RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/8/2016 5:00:52 AM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

My old mind has forgotten this so I may have it wrong overall but can you resupply CV sorties using at sea replenishment TF w/ an AE/AKE ship like you can resupply BB/CA/CL/DD ammo. If so when does it start plus ship type needed? I've searched here but got no answers

From memory:

1. AE only in Replenishment TF
2. January 1, 1945 and later.
3. Allied only.
4. Shells 5-inches and smaller. Essentially AA stuff and DD main guns. No torps. No cruiser or BB main guns.

Been years since I did it, but I seem to recall it takes either all or most of the ops points for the turn for the taking TF. But don't quote me on that.

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RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/8/2016 11:05:57 AM

Leandros

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This might be a reasonable place to take up a recent/similar problem of mine. One of my newest battleships - North Carolina - has been out of main gun ammo for some time and I have not been able to resupply it "in the field". I've had it in a major port, a major port with plenty of supplies, together with an AE ship, together in an AE ship in a port with plenty of supplies (more than 20.000) and in a port with a large USN support force. I believe I have covered the pre-requisites in the manual. No dice! Anybody?

Fred

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RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/8/2016 11:43:22 AM

HansBolter

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The AE has to have supply loaded aboard. The supply will be consumed by the replenishment and will need to be reloaded. There is a button for reloading tenders disbanded in ports.

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RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/8/2016 3:00:51 PM

Macclan5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

The AE has to have supply loaded aboard. The supply will be consumed by the replenishment and will need to be reloaded. There is a button for reloading tenders disbanded in ports.

+1

And of course there is another button (when ships are disbanded in port) to "re-arm re-fuel all ships" right beside the "load all tenders" button.

I am certain that there is a port sized requirement for BB main ammo as well for example... in addition to the AE size requirement to carry BB Main gun ammo.

Sorry away from manual which contains the specific reference.

Leandros - you indicate 'major port' but 'how major' ?

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RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/8/2016 3:57:35 PM

Leandros

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Thank you, guys - I have used the buttons - confirmed loaded "AE", too. "Major" port....hmmm....is "6" major enough..? With an AE in it, more than 20.000 in supply and 65 USN support squads..?

The support ship is AE LASSEN - 6.300 tons.

Fred

P.S.: Checking again I see now that the port was "5" but there is the above-mentioned AE disbanded, and loaded, in it.

< Message edited by Leandros -- 6/8/2016 4:14:57 PM >

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RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/8/2016 4:19:20 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros

Thank you, guys - I have used the buttons - confirmed loaded "AE", too. "Major" port....hmmm....is "6" major enough..? With an AE in it, more than 20.000 in supply and 65 USN support squads..?

The support ship is AE LASSEN - 6.300 tons.

Fred

Without any naval support you need a level 7 port to load any BB ammo. I am not sure how much naval support it takes to raise the reload capability of a level 6 port to level 7. Also be aware that the largest shells are the LAST to be handled by the port or AE, so it is common for the supplying port or ship and/or the receiving port or ship to run out of ops points before replenishing the BB main gun ammo. If any of them show 1000 ops points used you need to wait another turn to finish the loading (and hopefully not have another TF arrive and use up the ops points again!)

Incidentally, if using the button on the right side of the port screen to reload ammo on ships disbanded in port, you must "right click" the button as opposed to the normal "left click" (which refuels ships disbanded in port). To load ships under repair in pierside or shipyard mode you must change to the "ships under repair" screen.

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RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/8/2016 4:55:08 PM

Leandros

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Thank you, BB - I think maybe the problem is what you indicate - that too much activity is using up the ops points. I'll give it a couple of rounds and see how it turns out.

Fred

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RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/8/2016 9:34:26 PM

bomccarthy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

My old mind has forgotten this so I may have it wrong overall but can you resupply CV sorties using at sea replenishment TF w/ an AE/AKE ship like you can resupply BB/CA/CL/DD ammo. If so when does it start plus ship type needed? I've searched here but got no answers

From memory:

1. AE only in Replenishment TF
2. January 1, 1945 and later.
3. Allied only.
4. Shells 5-inches and smaller. Essentially AA stuff and DD main guns. No torps. No cruiser or BB main guns.

Been years since I did it, but I seem to recall it takes either all or most of the ops points for the turn for the taking TF. But don't quote me on that.

+1, except #4 - AE will replenish BB main guns at sea (AE needs to have at least 5,400 capacity). This is critical for supporting 1945 invasions. I would keep replenishment TFs close enough to the landing site so that BB bombardment TFs could rotate between the landing site and the replenishment TFs for reloads. The replenishment TFs would then rotate between the replenishment zone and one or more ports to load more supplies.

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RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/8/2016 10:13:29 PM

jmalter

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IIRC, bomccarthy has it right wrt the Moose's #4.

1945 is a good year for the Allied navies - with ReplTFs of AO, AE and VRF/CVE ships, TFs can stay at sea indefinitely. Fuel, ammunition, planes & pilots are delivered at sea. My only moan is that while VRF squadrons could not provide 'reserve' planes to the CVs - they would only fill out an airgroup to its listed strength.

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RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/8/2016 10:44:47 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bomccarthy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: jcjordan

My old mind has forgotten this so I may have it wrong overall but can you resupply CV sorties using at sea replenishment TF w/ an AE/AKE ship like you can resupply BB/CA/CL/DD ammo. If so when does it start plus ship type needed? I've searched here but got no answers

From memory:

1. AE only in Replenishment TF
2. January 1, 1945 and later.
3. Allied only.
4. Shells 5-inches and smaller. Essentially AA stuff and DD main guns. No torps. No cruiser or BB main guns.

Been years since I did it, but I seem to recall it takes either all or most of the ops points for the turn for the taking TF. But don't quote me on that.

+1, except #4 - AE will replenish BB main guns at sea (AE needs to have at least 5,400 capacity). This is critical for supporting 1945 invasions. I would keep replenishment TFs close enough to the landing site so that BB bombardment TFs could rotate between the landing site and the replenishment TFs for reloads. The replenishment TFs would then rotate between the replenishment zone and one or more ports to load more supplies.

I did a search and found numerous old timers quoting the 5inches and smaller bit (including me.) I also found one post by Don Bowen saying the rearm check is the same for underway, after 1/1/45, and in port.

And yes, there are a number of USN AEs that are 5400 or larger. Not much larger though.

But at sea there is no assistance from naval support. Just the AE in the check. And this bit from the manual I don't completely get:

"As a TF rearms, it consumes supply. The amount of supply required for each weapon, for each
ship, is [(Rearm Cost) * (number of guns) * (ammo per gun)] / 2000." Manual, page 284.

The threshold to reload for any 16in gun is 5400. So, perhaps, at best, one 5400 capacity AE could rearm one BB? And be flat empty after? Or does the above formula drive down the 5400 due to multiple turrets?

Do you have direct experience re-loading BBs from AEs at sea? If so, how many BBs can one AE re-load? Or part of one BB?

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 6/8/2016 10:48:09 PM >

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RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/8/2016 11:09:38 PM

Bullwinkle58

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Looked a little more.

"Late in the war, AEs were equipped for transfer of ammunition to ships at sea. Prior to that, AEs could only transfer to ships when they were alongside in a port.

The only difference between AE and AKE is this late war underway rearmament.

AEs and AKEs come in all sizes, with only the larger ones having the capability of handling the shells for the really big guns. We wanted to allow small AE/AKE for rearmament of smaller warships without creating a "cheat" where an incredibly small ship could handle the largest ammo. This was implemented using the total cargo capacity.

In this regard, total cargo capacity stands in for the magazine size and protection, cranes and elevators, hatch sizes, deck reinforcement, and all the other items involved in carrying and issuing ammunition.

This check on total cargo capacity is in addition to the supply requirement for actual issue of ammunition.

Basically, total cargo capacity indicates the ability to carry ammunition of a certain size and supply on board indicates if any ammunition is actually being carried. "

Don Bowen

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3543680&mpage=1&key=AEs?

And this from Alfred:

"Some clarifications are in order.

1. Commencing 1 January 1945, AE type vessels which are in a Replenishment TF, can rearm from their "cargo" hold, ships in other task forces whilst at sea.

2. AKE and TK type vessels can never rearm and refuel respectively from their "cargo" holds, ships in other task forces whilst at sea. The same restriction applies to AE type vessels prior to 1 January 1945.

3. AKE and TK type vessels must be at a base (ditto for AE prior to 1 January 1945) in order to rearm and refuel respectively from their "cargo" holds other ships in a task force currently at that base (it need not be docked). The AKE/TK may be either disbanded in the port or in a task force. Ships in other task forces which wish to replenish from the AKE/TK either select:

(a) replenish from port, if the AKE/TK are disbanded in port, or
(b) replenish at sea, if the AKE/TK are in a task force

4. AE/AKE can replenish all weapon systems (except mines), subject to having a sufficient internal cargo hold capacity and the requisite supply to meet the rearming cost. In practice this means that AKE will probably only be able to rearm up to 12" guns. Most AE (but not all) can rearm up to 16" guns. All AE/AKE are capable of rearming carrier aircraft and torpedo sorties.

Read this thread for reference.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2296976&mpage=1&key=replenish?

Alfred"

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3491611&mpage=1&key=rearming?
=================================================

So. I was wrong, although the 5inches and smaller note is widespread and came from somewhere in the very early days.

And, per Don's post, the 5400 capacity, IF they have exactly 5400 supply on-board (and not one point less) can rearm a BB at sea after 1/1/45 if they're in a Replenishment TF and ops points cooperate. At that point they should be flat dry and need to go to a port to re-supply. In my experience at many ports, especially those with multiple tenders needing to load supply, one turn often isn't enough to get back to 5400 on more than one tender.

Also, 5400 is the most common sized AE in the USN. In my mid-1944 game I have only two 6400 supply afloat (may have lost some; I didn't check), with only three more to be delivered by the end of the war (Vesuvius, Wrangell, Firedrake.)

So if one had a Bombardment TF of, say, seven BBs with 16in main guns, I read that as needing seven 5400 AEs or larger to rearm all at once, each with pristine supply levels.

I've only used AEs at sea in AI games years ago. I used them for AA ammo to combat the kamis. I don't recall ever trying to re-arm battleships. Probably didn't try as I, and many others, thought there was a 5inch restriction.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 6/8/2016 11:12:48 PM >

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RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/8/2016 11:53:54 PM

bomccarthy

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I admit to being a player who estimates rather roughly, instead of calculating down to the last supply or capacity point. It's been almost 6 months since I ended my game, but I recall using no more than 4 BBs in a bombardment TF (with escorting DDs) during the initial invasion of a hex, with followup bombardment TFs of 2-3 BBs each. My replenishment TFs would consist of at least 4 AEs (plus DEs) - one would replenish a single BB TF, then return to port to restock, with another replenishment TF taking its spot in the replenishment zone. It was a bit of a headache, especially since I would have other replenishment TFs with smaller AEs to replenish the landing craft rocket/gunboat TFs that would merge with the amphib TFs as they unloaded reinforcements and supplies in a contested hex. And 4-5 CVE TFs (each with 4-5 CVEs and attendant DEs) would cover the whole affair, along with surface and ASW TFs. And standing off a bit in the distance would be TF38/58, keeping the kamikazes busy.

Of course, I was playing the AI, so I didn't have to worry about sneaky moves, just keep an eye on the 1,000+ fighters based in Tokyo. Still, it was kind of like those Ed Sullivan Show performers who would keep 20 dinner plates spinning on poles for five minutes.

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RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/8/2016 11:54:33 PM

rustysi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leandros

Thank you, guys - I have used the buttons - confirmed loaded "AE", too. "Major" port....hmmm....is "6" major enough..? With an AE in it, more than 20.000 in supply and 65 USN support squads..?

The support ship is AE LASSEN - 6.300 tons.

Fred

P.S.: Checking again I see now that the port was "5" but there is the above-mentioned AE disbanded, and loaded, in it.

I think your issue is procedural as opposed to anything else. Here's how it works. You say you have an AE disbanded and loaded in port, and of sufficient cargo capacity to rearm the BB. From what I see you are correct. What you now have to do is put the BB in a TF and click on the button that will 'replenish TF from port'. That will reload your BB's ammo if you have all other requirements met, and I believe may be what you're missing. IOW you can't reload the BB from within the port unless the port/NS is sufficient.

BTW an AE/AKE will perform this task in any size port (and maybe a dot base, never tried) as long as all other criteria are met (i.e., cargo size, loaded with supply, disbanded in port).

In addition.

quote:

is "6" major enough..?

No. In your case the North Carolina has a 16/45 Mk5 shell with a rearm cost of 4480. In a level 6 port you would need and additional 756 NS devices in order to reload the main armament. All this can be found in the manual. Check 20.1.2.2 starting on p284.

Ciao

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RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/9/2016 12:41:09 AM

BBfanboy

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quote:

Bullwinkle58: IF they have exactly 5400 supply on-board (and not one point less)

I am not sure you have understood the info from Don correctly, although there is a chance that underway replenishment has the "supply on-board" restriction you mentioned in the quote.

In port, it does not matter how much supply you actually have on the AE/AKE, it will attempt to replenish a demand from a BB subject to:

A: sufficient size ( I am using 4200 capacity AKE to reload R class BBs)
B: sufficient ops points - the AKE will load one BB within the available 1000 ops points, but only part of a second BB
C: sufficient supply on board - I have had the AKE down below half of available capacity when the BBs came calling and it still loaded some main gun ammo until it ran out of supply. IOW, the capacity of the ship, not the actual supply on board governs whether any ammo gets transferred.

In the case of an underway replenishment by AE, it makes sense to have a large enough AE by capacity (5400 to handle the Iowa class) but not to require that it be fully loaded. Replenishing an Iowa class does not require 5400 tons of ammo, and it is ludicrous to think that any BB captain would take a wave-off when he could get SOME of his main gun ammo instead of none. And then there is the issue that smaller ammo gets transferred first, so a BB would basically never be able to use underway replenishment if the AE had to be fully stocked.

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RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/9/2016 1:35:46 AM

jcjordan

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So no replenishing of CV sorties at sea? Should that not be possible/was it done historically as I assume CV sorties amounts mostly to bombs/torps/av fuel?

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RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/9/2016 4:25:31 AM

rustysi

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OK, I looked again, but didn't find anything in writing although I believe it should be possible. Here's my reasoning, an AE will supply ships ammo including CVs. Of course the afore mentioned has prerequisites, such as sufficient cargo capacity, supply loaded, and op points remaining. At a certain point 'late' in the game an AE may resupply 'at sea'. Therefore at that certain point 'late' in the game I don't see why an AE wouldn't provide unrep. Now as for a date 'late' in the game, as near as I can tell it is 1/1/45. So in 1945 put your AE's in a replenishment TF and run them out with your forces and see what happens.

Wish I could point to something more specific, but that's all I got after more than an hour, sorry.

BTW someone out there must have 'been there, done that', no? If you have give us a post. Inquiring minds want to know.

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RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/9/2016 4:49:17 AM

BBfanboy

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My current game is in 1942 ATM, so when I get to 1945 in three years I will let you know (senility permitting) ....

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RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/9/2016 5:29:03 AM

jcjordan

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Well I'm at DDay 6/6/44 so I'll be there in a few months

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RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/9/2016 3:16:39 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

In the case of an underway replenishment by AE, it makes sense to have a large enough AE by capacity (5400 to handle the Iowa class) but not to require that it be fully loaded. Replenishing an Iowa class does not require 5400 tons of ammo, and it is ludicrous to think that any BB captain would take a wave-off when he could get SOME of his main gun ammo instead of none. And then there is the issue that smaller ammo gets transferred first, so a BB would basically never be able to use underway replenishment if the AE had to be fully stocked.

This was bugging me, so I ran some tests. I'm going to start a new thread in the General. The results were . . . odd.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 6/9/2016 3:18:52 PM >

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RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/9/2016 4:03:04 PM

jmalter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jcjordan
So no replenishing of CV sorties at sea? Should that not be possible/was it done historically as I assume CV sorties amounts mostly to bombs/torps/av fuel?

After 12/44, Allied AEs in ReplTFs can resupply carrier sorties at sea. Operations points are a limiting factor.

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RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/9/2016 11:45:22 PM

Alfred

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There is just too much incorrect information in this thread. I have addressed some of the issues in this concurrent thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4095833

Alfred

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RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/10/2016 12:33:07 AM

jcjordan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter

quote:

ORIGINAL: jcjordan
So no replenishing of CV sorties at sea? Should that not be possible/was it done historically as I assume CV sorties amounts mostly to bombs/torps/av fuel?

After 12/44, Allied AEs in ReplTFs can resupply carrier sorties at sea. Operations points are a limiting factor.

OK thanks, I was wondering since I'm now at the point in the game where I was trying to have my CV's pretty much at sea constantly so as far as resupply, I'm just a bit too early

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RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/10/2016 1:57:09 AM

geofflambert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

There is just too much incorrect information in this thread.� I have addressed some of the issues in this concurrent thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4095833

Alfred

As always, thank you very much for any efforts you make here, Alfred.

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RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/10/2016 2:03:52 AM

John B.

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I also posted this on the other replenishment thread. I think IMHO

that it provides some insight into possible reasons for limitations on replenishing ammo at sea.

It seems that underway replenishment mainly concentrated on ammunition for AA guns and aircraft. It does not appear that BBs rearmed at sea with large caliber ammunition so any limitations that the game places on using AEs to re-arm the Iowas seems pretty realistic.

"From 22 March to 27 May [during the battle of Okinawa] the five ammunition ships of Service Squadron Six--Wrangell, Shasta, Lassen, Mauna Loa, and Vesuvius--in a total of 106 days servicing, delivered a daly average of 143 tons, making a total of 15,159 tons. . . The types of ammunition issued 22 March-27 May indicate the demands: 77,482 5-inch, 38-caliber projectiles; 34,773 5-inch rockets; 119 2,000-pound bombs, G.P.; 65 1,000-pound bombs, G.P.; 280 1,000-pound bombs, G.P.; 100 500-pound bombs, S.A.P.; 3,671 250-pound bombs, G.P.; 18,579 100-pound bombs, G.P.; 83 torpedoes A/C/; 810 depth charges; 289 arbors." http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/BBBO/BBBO-28.html (extensive article on US Navy logistics in WWII by Rear Admiral Carter) Shore bombardment ships (which I presume includes BBs) rearmed at the anchorage at Korama Retto. Id.

Also note the average transfer rate per day of 143 tons. The Iowa class battleship held about 1,200 16" shells in storage. http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_16-50_mk7.php. Weighing in at slightly more than one ton per shell it would take the five AEs at the average rates listed more than a week to rearm one Iowa that had shot off most of her main battery shells. Even with surge rearming it would take several days to rearm just the main batteries. Since use of the 16" guns was fairly infrequent in WWII (as opposed to the game) compared to the daily use of AA ammo and aircraft bombs it makes all kinds of sense that the Navy would not have the AEs equipped to transfer 16" shells.

Other Fun facts, the first underway replenishment in wartime took place in 1917 under the watchful eye of then Chief Engineer Chester Nimitz. the first at-sea transfer of ammunition was on February 23, 1945 to the CV Bennington. The Carrier TFs would spend 2 days attacking Japan and then meet up with underway replenishment group and line up for 40 miles each ship refueling, breaking away, rearming, breaking away, and then re victualing and breaking away to return to attack Japan.

http://www.sname.org/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx?DocumentFileKey=f44b637e-c251-4e00-9460-f1cc2f9a1d1b

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Post #: 26

RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/10/2016 2:58:59 AM

geofflambert

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From: St. Louis
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Thanks John B. for posting that. My understanding is that the IJN was testing the same sort of underway replenishment, but perhaps never perfected it or perhaps abandoned the concept. I'd like to know more about that.

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Post #: 27

RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/10/2016 4:37:03 AM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Thanks John B. for posting that. My understanding is that the IJN was testing the same sort of underway replenishment, but perhaps never perfected it or perhaps abandoned the concept. I'd like to know more about that.

Since the IJN would not have been ahead of the USN in developing underway replenishment, by 1945 they would have abandoned the effort for lack of ships!

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 28

RE: at sea replenishment question - 6/10/2016 9:46:40 AM

Leandros

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

There is just too much incorrect information in this thread.� I have addressed some of the issues in this concurrent thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4095833

Alfred

As always, thank you very much for any efforts you make here, Alfred.

I join you heartily in that, Geoff - as I believe I have found the probable cause to my little problem -
that of battle wagon ammo replenishment in port. I refer to Alfred's note that fuel is replenished first -
no fuel, no ammo! Well, my port did not have fuel oil. Plenty of supplies, but no fuel oil. Fuel is being unloaded
there now and the AE ship is being loaded up (that said, the last 24 hours it has been depleted again, because of
the general large activity in the port, I suppose).

We shall see if tomorrow brings any improvements.

Fred

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Post #: 29

RE: at sea replenishment question - 7/28/2019 11:22:31 AM

Yaab