RE: Simple Things Amuse Simple Minds

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RE: Simple Things Amuse Simple Minds - 5/28/2016 8:29:43 PM

aaatoysandmore

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

I just love this reply on the Ageod forum, (linked above, but this is easier.)

"You sure give a lot of time to a series of games that you repeatedly claim to have given up on and repudiated. And, apparently, plan to give even more time to recording yourself playing them and then posting it on YouTube. I think that if I truly hated something with as much vitriol as you have expressed here, I wouldn't still be coming to this forum to proclaim said vitriol. Interesting."

Really. Me, I just toss them aside or use the disks as targets.

Have to say here that You are You and He is trying to be Himself so He doesn't have to think or act like YOU. That's what makes us unique in that we all do things a bit differently from someone else. It's part of life an it ain't goin nowhere.

He's got a right to complain to the moon and back 365 days a year if he wants to. He wants to get the word out to as many people as possible and you want to stifle him. That's not democratic. :)) Let the man speak and since you say YOU wouldn't spend time complaining about something and waste your time what do you think you're doing now? Hrmmm? lol You're doing exactly what you're telling him he should not. Just supporting your own agenda and his doesn't matter.

(in reply to Aurelian)

Post #: 31

RE: Simple Things Amuse Simple Minds - 5/28/2016 8:43:58 PM

Aurelian

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

I just love this reply on the Ageod forum, (linked above, but this is easier.)

"You sure give a lot of time to a series of games that you repeatedly claim to have given up on and repudiated. And, apparently, plan to give even more time to recording yourself playing them and then posting it on YouTube. I think that if I truly hated something with as much vitriol as you have expressed here, I wouldn't still be coming to this forum to proclaim said vitriol. Interesting."

Really. Me, I just toss them aside or use the disks as targets.

Have to say here that You are You and He is trying to be Himself so He doesn't have to think or act like YOU. That's what makes us unique in that we all do things a bit differently from someone else. It's part of life an it ain't goin nowhere.

He's got a right to complain to the moon and back 365 days a year if he wants to. He wants to get the word out to as many people as possible and you want to stifle him. That's not democratic. :)) Let the man speak and since you say YOU wouldn't spend time complaining about something and waste your time what do you think you're doing now? Hrmmm? lol You're doing exactly what you're telling him he should not. Just supporting your own agenda and his doesn't matter.

It ill behooves you to try and dispense advice and not self apply it.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to aaatoysandmore)

Post #: 32

RE: Simple Things Amuse Simple Minds - 5/28/2016 11:03:00 PM

loki100

Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

I just love this reply on the Ageod forum, (linked above, but this is easier.)

"You sure give a lot of time to a series of games that you repeatedly claim to have given up on and repudiated. And, apparently, plan to give even more time to recording yourself playing them and then posting it on YouTube. I think that if I truly hated something with as much vitriol as you have expressed here, I wouldn't still be coming to this forum to proclaim said vitriol. Interesting."

Really. Me, I just toss them aside or use the disks as targets.

Have to say here that You are You and He is trying to be Himself so He doesn't have to think or act like YOU. That's what makes us unique in that we all do things a bit differently from someone else. It's part of life an it ain't goin nowhere.

He's got a right to complain to the moon and back 365 days a year if he wants to. He wants to get the word out to as many people as possible and you want to stifle him. That's not democratic. :)) Let the man speak and since you say YOU wouldn't spend time complaining about something and waste your time what do you think you're doing now? Hrmmm? lol You're doing exactly what you're telling him he should not. Just supporting your own agenda and his doesn't matter.

I'm sorry but he doesn't want to inform .. he wants, for whatever wierd reason to pretend that AGEOD's AI is game-endingly awful. His claims would be more plausible if (a) he actually knew how it operated and how you can use the game settings or (b) started to set out a logic he thinks the AI should follow (no-one is asking him to code etc, just to think through what a 'better' AI looks like).

Now the simple reality is that AGEOD are a very small group of people utterly dedicated to producing highly detailed and realistic games set in periods that don't get much coverage - I mean where else can you find a scenario that covers late 17C warfare in N America?

So you can either dedicate yourself to trying to sabotage them (which is what ominus is doing) or support them by identifying real problems and feasible solutions?

_____________________________

(in reply to aaatoysandmore)

Post #: 33

RE: Simple Things Amuse Simple Minds - 5/28/2016 11:43:19 PM

aaatoysandmore

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

I just love this reply on the Ageod forum, (linked above, but this is easier.)

"You sure give a lot of time to a series of games that you repeatedly claim to have given up on and repudiated. And, apparently, plan to give even more time to recording yourself playing them and then posting it on YouTube. I think that if I truly hated something with as much vitriol as you have expressed here, I wouldn't still be coming to this forum to proclaim said vitriol. Interesting."

Really. Me, I just toss them aside or use the disks as targets.

Have to say here that You are You and He is trying to be Himself so He doesn't have to think or act like YOU. That's what makes us unique in that we all do things a bit differently from someone else. It's part of life an it ain't goin nowhere.

He's got a right to complain to the moon and back 365 days a year if he wants to. He wants to get the word out to as many people as possible and you want to stifle him. That's not democratic. :)) Let the man speak and since you say YOU wouldn't spend time complaining about something and waste your time what do you think you're doing now? Hrmmm? lol You're doing exactly what you're telling him he should not. Just supporting your own agenda and his doesn't matter.

It ill behooves you to try and dispense advice and not self apply it.

DITTO I'm sure.

(in reply to Aurelian)

Post #: 34

RE: Simple Things Amuse Simple Minds - 5/29/2016 12:29:48 AM

Aurelian

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

I just love this reply on the Ageod forum, (linked above, but this is easier.)

"You sure give a lot of time to a series of games that you repeatedly claim to have given up on and repudiated. And, apparently, plan to give even more time to recording yourself playing them and then posting it on YouTube. I think that if I truly hated something with as much vitriol as you have expressed here, I wouldn't still be coming to this forum to proclaim said vitriol. Interesting."

Really. Me, I just toss them aside or use the disks as targets.

Have to say here that You are You and He is trying to be Himself so He doesn't have to think or act like YOU. That's what makes us unique in that we all do things a bit differently from someone else. It's part of life an it ain't goin nowhere.

He's got a right to complain to the moon and back 365 days a year if he wants to. He wants to get the word out to as many people as possible and you want to stifle him. That's not democratic. :)) Let the man speak and since you say YOU wouldn't spend time complaining about something and waste your time what do you think you're doing now? Hrmmm? lol You're doing exactly what you're telling him he should not. Just supporting your own agenda and his doesn't matter.

I'm sorry but he doesn't want to inform .. he wants, for whatever wierd reason to pretend that AGEOD's AI is game-endingly awful. His claims would be more plausible if (a) he actually knew how it operated and how you can use the game settings or (b) started to set out a logic he thinks the AI should follow (no-one is asking him to code etc, just to think through what a 'better' AI looks like).

Now the simple reality is that AGEOD are a very small group of people utterly dedicated to producing highly detailed and realistic games set in periods that don't get much coverage - I mean where else can you find a scenario that covers late 17C warfare in N America?

So you can either dedicate yourself to trying to sabotage them (which is what ominus is doing) or support them by identifying real problems and feasible solutions?

This

One thing aaa missed is my last post is a *quote* from the Ageod forum where another took the guy to task.

If Ominus wants to spend time to tilt at windmills, that's his choice.

But it is doomed to fail. And I have seen really bad AIs from the C64 on.

_____________________________

If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 35

RE: having great fun playing the AI - 5/29/2016 11:55:43 PM

vaalen

Posts: 387
Joined: 1/13/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: vaalen

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

generally good advice some of those settings make a huge difference.

If I am going to play any AGEOD game vs the AI I tend to give myself the hardest activation rule (ie inactive=immobile). If you play a side with poor leadership (Reds in Rus; Union in the Civil War, Austria in RoP) this will result in teeth grinding levels of frustration as you see an opportunity just slip away. On the other hand if you do this with a weak side but better leadership (Confederacy in Civil War, Prussia in RoP, France in WoN), when putting together a bold move you run a hell of a risk.

This setting also makes you very careful about campaigning up to winter as you risk having an army immobilised.

Add on the worst attrition setting (ie you can only replace if static and on a depot).

What you do is to create a situation where the AI becomes a challenge and where you face pretty realistic command problems. Using this setting I've had a couple of vs AI Rise of Prussia games go the full Seven Years (something you never see in PBEM) and it makes France in WoN into a challenge.

Loki100, I have played with the inactive immobile setting for myself, and it really makes the game more challenging. Have never had the courage to use the worst attrition setting, though. I salute you!

I first used it in vs AI RoP game using the Austrian side. The combination meant the game lasted the full seven years and the last two both sides were more or less reduced to being armed mobs (and small mobs at that) for the last 2 years. It remained a real challenge right to the end and ended in a draw.

Good thing was I didn't have to then optionally restrain what I did and since Prussia has better leadership Athena still had the tools she needed.

Loki, I just started a new WON game as France using your settings. Frustration does not begin to describe what I felt when the Austrian army escaped a carefully planned encirclement because Bernadotte refused to move for three straight turns. And Massena refuses to move toward Venice, though the Austrians seem to have abandoned the area. Much more challenging, and really recreates a feel for the period.

Thanks for sharing!

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 36

RE: having great fun playing the AI - 6/1/2016 12:23:14 PM

aaatoysandmore

Posts: 2848
Joined: 9/11/2013
Status: offline

quote:

But it is doomed to fail. And I have seen really bad AIs from the C64 on.

I've seen really good ones from the C64 and not so much onwards.

(in reply to vaalen)

Post #: 37

RE: having great fun playing the AI - 6/2/2016 2:59:23 AM

Rosseau

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline

First thing I do when buying any Ageod game is mod it - rules, units, all I can, so it plays just how I like it and can make up for some AI flaws. I rarely win any scenario.

Of course, people will say you shouldn't have to mod the game, but I'm glad it is possible at least. I have not, and will not, buy a game I can't mod.

(in reply to aaatoysandmore)

Post #: 38

RE: having great fun playing the AI - 6/2/2016 10:24:09 AM

altipueri

Posts: 869
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline

Hi Rousseau, what are the main things you mod?

Is it easy to make a few significant changes - e.g. in Hearts of Iron it was a one line edit in one text file to alter the combat modifiers - that will be about the limit of any changes I can do.

This game is nearly there now - I just want this latest patch to go official and I will put more time in rather than just playing the Waterloo scenario.

(in reply to Rosseau)

Post #: 39

RE: having great fun playing the AI - 6/2/2016 5:28:47 PM

vaalen

Posts: 387
Joined: 1/13/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri

This game is nearly there now - I just want this latest patch to go official and I will put more time in rather than just playing the Waterloo scenario.

The Campaign game is so much more than the Waterloo scenario, that I was astonished by the depth and enjoyment I have from playing it. Having to consider the whole map and situation in Europe, the Diplomatic and economic factors, the richness added by the national modifiers, and so much more.
It is almost there, and it does need some tweaking, but I can hardly stop playing it.

(in reply to altipueri)

Post #: 40

RE: having great fun playing the AI - 6/12/2016 2:18:43 AM

tevans6220

Posts: 223
Joined: 9/3/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

generally good advice some of those settings make a huge difference.

If I am going to play any AGEOD game vs the AI I tend to give myself the hardest activation rule (ie inactive=immobile). If you play a side with poor leadership (Reds in Rus; Union in the Civil War, Austria in RoP) this will result in teeth grinding levels of frustration as you see an opportunity just slip away. On the other hand if you do this with a weak side but better leadership (Confederacy in Civil War, Prussia in RoP, France in WoN), when putting together a bold move you run a hell of a risk.

This setting also makes you very careful about campaigning up to winter as you risk having an army immobilised.

Add on the worst attrition setting (ie you can only replace if static and on a depot).

What you do is to create a situation where the AI becomes a challenge and where you face pretty realistic command problems. Using this setting I've had a couple of vs AI Rise of Prussia games go the full Seven Years (something you never see in PBEM) and it makes France in WoN into a challenge.

Got a comment about your settings. I've used them and know that games are challenging that way but I just don't see how it improves the AI. Those settings just makes things more difficult for you. It doesn't present you with a more challenging AI. To me a challenging AI is one where I don't have to handicap myself in order to get a good game. If you play an AGEOD game using the default settings where you and the AI play by the same rules it's almost a guarantee that you will eventually win. I own every single AGEOD product and it's the same with every game. I'd much rather have an AI that can challenge me on an equal footing than to play against AI where I have to handicap myself. Your settings bring a challenge but it really doesn't improve the AI. It's a little like playing a Civilization game on higher levels. I'd much rather have an AI that's on an equal footing and can beat me without bonuses for it or handicaps for myself.

That's not saying that Athena is bad AI. I've seen it pull off some brilliant moves and make some really dumb moves too. But it's predictable after awhile. I just wish AGEOD would spend a little more time perfecting their AI. They make great games that I want to play. But I don't want to have to play with settings to get a good game from the AI. Like I said, I own all AGEOD titles but I really haven't played them because the AI doesn't really present a challenge anymore. I know the option to play against others is always open but I prefer to play against the AI. Games that provide a challenging AI get played more than those who don't. Command OPs and CMANO are two of my staple games. As far as I know neither AI cheats. So on the occasions where the AI beats me I know that I've just been outsmarted or outplayed and it's not because of some bonus or handicap. Just my opinion. I'm not saying anything is wrong with your suggestion or settings. I do sometimes play that way and lose but then I start thinking that the only reason I lost was because of the settings I chose.

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 41

RE: having great fun playing the AI - 6/12/2016 6:09:27 PM

altipueri

Posts: 869
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline

I've got nearly all the AGEOD titles and I always find the AI a challenge and rarely get a victory. I guess some of you guys are just too clever by half.

One way to always find the AI bit of a challenge is to keep changing games so that you don't get to game the system because you know the AI will do such and such or that the so and so event will fire.

In the last 48 hours or so I have played:

A random scenario from Combat Mission - Afrika Korps
A scenario from Sid Meier's Gettysburg
A scenario from Command Ops:Battles From The Bulge
Saxony scenario from Rise of Prussia
Shiloh scenario from AGEOD's American Civil War
Shiloh scenario from AGEOD's Civil War 2
A random battle from Medieval Total War
About half an hour of Darkest Hour
About half an hour of For The Glory
An hour of bridge
Half an hour of backgammon.

(in reply to tevans6220)

Post #: 42

RE: having great fun playing the AI - 8/2/2016 5:46:34 AM

Luxion110

Posts: 4
Joined: 7/8/2016
Status: offline

it is a bit difficult to watch only into your direction; there are many things wich arent good as they should be, specially in the AI.

but compared to, lets say "map and unit images" the game is getting much more atractiv....

sometimes i havent the feeling as you have,..the ai isnt good enough to challenge me; sometimes i feel overruned by units were i ask myself, how could this happend to my men...:P,..
mainly,..there are many things wich have to be reworked, but with patches and dlc,..there is a way to fix some issues,...
i wouldnt say WON isnt good enough,... for an strategy game (turned based) it is one of those games wich is a must have for all (specially) interested in historical time period,..even if the ai is sometimes easy to handle,..
hey,.../pbem is hard to chalange......(recomended for those you need to be thrilled :P)

regards

< Message edited by Luxion110 -- 8/8/2016 4:25:40 AM >

(in reply to loki100)

Post #: 43

RE: Incomplete Hotseat - 10/3/2016 1:49:41 AM

pzgndr

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Speaking of EiA.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: obsidiandragon

I still play against useless AI, but set up challenges to make it more interesting.

Wish they would have kept working AI like promised...

Game doesn't work well as a stand alone but is playable for beginning strategies and some tactics. However, when Russia declares war on England because of a lapse of war against Sweden .. that should tell you something. Making deals between allies still has issues, they may tell you they will give you something but that doesn't mean you'll get it etc.. AI player won't surrender until you have destroyed all troops and occupy most of their cities AND they are in instability..

I have NEVER seen an AI build a single ship in years of playing it. So as long as France keeps building them and trying to run British blockade killing a few each time, eventually you WILL get through and England will never rebuild them.

I have been working on an update to EIA for several months now, and I must say that THIS particular post has been rather motivational. As a rebuttal to obsidiandragon's past comments, I would offer obsidiandragon's own recent comment regarding playtesting the upcoming v1.21.03 update at http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/post.asp?do=reply&q=1&messageID=4154979&toStyle=tm

quote:

ORIGINAL: obsidiandragon

I think pzgndr has already made an impact on the game. I am enjoying it longer into the game!!

Before, you usually stomp France and one or two other major powers by 1807 and coast to a VP win by late 1809-1810.. so I started adding 100 victory points.. this meant I didn't win until 1812 but had decimated most of Europe by then and I was just taking turns knocking out EVERY MP in turn.. Now, I have gotten into 1809 and it's still a close race, took 2 years to topple France the first time as Austria. Better AI moves, and purchase/placement has come a long way. Still some ways to go, but it's getting there. Thanks for the work!!!

And on another point:

quote:

ORIGINAL: rosseau

Thanks for the reminder on Empire in Arms. Just when the nightmares were receding

Better AI is a cause worth supporting. And even a negative video will probably help Ageod more than hurt.

I agree, better AI is a cause worth supporting! I would like to invite Aurelian and rosseau and others to check out the new v1.21.03 public beta when Matrix Games gets it out in the next couple of weeks or so. It ain't perfect, but it's better!

_____________________________

Bill
Empires in Arms Development Team

(in reply to Aurelian)

Post #: 44