RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> After Action Reports >> RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/20/2016 11:57:42 PM

Cap Mandrake

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Man, that is a heck of a monitor you have there.

Why not jog NW one hex? It's like all the wildebeasts crosses at one point with the crocs lined up like teenagers at In and Out.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 6931

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 12:07:11 AM

Canoerebel

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There have been course changes, and there will be at least one more that's significant. But the main thing is to get there as soon as possible, and each hex sideways is a hex added to the trip. The "thundering herd" group of TFs has lots of ASW, so my hope is that they'll keep the nasty subs at bay. They may not, but that's the hope. So, steam in strength and get to the beach as soon as possible.

At this point, I don't think John can react in time to seriously augment his defenses in the target hexes, even if he suspects the ultimate destination. I don't think he does, yet. I think he's still mostly focused on the Marshalls, Truk, and the Marianas. But if my analysis is right that he has a soft underbelly, then already his thoughts may be turning there, somewhat like this; "Man, what if he's heading there? I have nothing!. That's why I think speed is more important than deception. But I can engage in a bit of deception while the trailing TFs catch up.

The course is set no matter how John reacts now, but my hope is that he'll be a bit tentative, hoping to figure out what the target is and to then configure an effective strike of ships, carrier aircraft and LBA. If that's the case, I might be able to slip by the most worrisome stretch before he's certain enough to strike. So I'll give a zig there to try to throw him off balance.

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)

Post #: 6932

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 1:39:15 AM

Cap Mandrake

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So what is due "west" (on the WITPAE map) from 2 hexes S of Wake

Perhaps split the Guam/Truk gap and keep going to Sulawese, Tarakan, Balikpapan, Mindanao etc.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 6933

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 1:46:07 AM

Canoerebel

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11/2/43

Big Tent: John's subs run amock today, putting torps into CA Birmingham, an xAP, three xAK and an LCI. Birmingham has moderate damage and will retire to Wake; one xAK is in bad shape; the other four ships went under. It was startling to watch this series of attacks, with the attendant worry of "what if, what if, what if...the worst occurs?" A tip of the cap to John for doing what's he's doing - his subs are well placed and probably have very good commanders.

The herd, culled a bit, is 55 hexes out of Pearl and 27 from the first beach. SigInt that radio signals are detected at Wolei, so he may be looking that way.

Tomorrow the herd will jink, either NW towards the Marianas or SW towards Eniwetok.

Enemy strike aircraft sortied from Enewitok: 36 AM4J Zeros and 43 Judys. The CAP handles them, downing 60 aircraft.

But here's an important question for those of you that have experience to evaluate this: in the first place, I was surprised that LBA would sortie against Death Star. Usually air superiority ratios would dissuade this. But more suprising and alarming to me is that only 86 Allied fighters were involved in the intercept. All of my carriers are within limits (all show "orange" levels of aircraft, none show red). Is it possible that the carriers simply recognized the threat as a small one so didn't sortie the full compliment? Or is this indicative of some weirdness - some problem with my carrier deployment that I haven't considered?

All fighter squadrons were set at 40% CAP and 10% rest (I'm bumping that to 50%/10%). And each kind of fighter was represented in small numbers: Corsair, Wildcat, Hellcat, and FM-1.

Bottom line: if 500 Japanese aircraft were inbound, would my CAP respond accordingly? Or does the modest CAP against a modest raid suggest that something's wrong? Would you have expected 500 fighters to take wing against a raid by 79 aircraft?

The pertinent part of the combat report is excerpted below.

I think everything's okay, but I wanted to run it by you gents.

As for what happens next - Yes, the subs have me grimacing. But I'm proceeding. If something bad happens in the next turn of two, I can still divert to Eniwetok, the alternative objective. But if things quiet down a bit, Big Tent rolls on.

Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Wake Island at 131,100

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 50 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M4-J Zero x 36
D4Y1 Judy x 43

Allied aircraft
F4F-3A Wildcat x 2
F4F-4 Wildcat x 16
FM-1 Wildcat x 9
F4U-1A Corsair x 6
F6F-3 Hellcat x 53

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M4-J Zero: 16 destroyed
D4Y1 Judy: 23 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 1 destroyed
FM-1 Wildcat: 1 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

CAP engaged:
VF-1 with F6F-3 Hellcat (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 15000.
Raid is overhead
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-2 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 15000.
Raid is overhead
VF-3 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Raid is overhead
VF-42 with F6F-3 Hellcat (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(3 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 15000.
Raid is overhead
3 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-6 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Raid is overhead
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-8 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Raid is overhead
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-9 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Raid is overhead
VF-16 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Raid is overhead
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-18 with F6F-3 Hellcat (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Raid is overhead
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-22 with F4F-4 Wildcat (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 15000.
Raid is overhead
2 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-23 with F4F-4 Wildcat (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 10000.
Raid is overhead
2 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-25 with F6F-3 Hellcat (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 15000.
Raid is overhead
VF-31 with F4U-1A Corsair (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 25000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 25000.
Raid is overhead
VC(F)-33 with FM-1 Wildcat (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 10000.
Raid is overhead
VF-35 with F4F-4 Wildcat (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 10000.
Raid is overhead
2 planes vectored on to bombers
VF-37 with F4F-4 Wildcat (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Raid is overhead
VC(F)-39 with FM-1 Wildcat (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 15000.
Raid is overhead
VC(F)-41 with FM-1 Wildcat (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 10000.
Raid is overhead
VF-60 with F4F-4 Wildcat (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 15000.
Raid is overhead
VC(F)-63 with FM-1 Wildcat (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 10000.
Raid is overhead

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 6/21/2016 2:19:49 AM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 6934

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 1:46:39 AM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

So what is due "west" (on the WITPAE map) from 2 hexes S of Wake Perhaps split the Guam/Truk gap and keep going to Sulawese, Tarakan, Balikpapan, Mindanao etc.

A 'round the world cruise - it's the Great White Fleet!

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(in reply to Cap Mandrake)

Post #: 6935

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 2:26:38 AM

Canoerebel

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I'll be sending the turn back within the 1/2 hour. So if any of you experienced guys has insight into the carrier CAP (see bold print two posts above), please post. If I don't hear anything, or if nobody thinks its an issue, the herd will lumber onward, culled and spooked just a bit, but determined to vanquish to foe.

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 6936

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 2:32:28 AM

Canoerebel

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Specifically, is it odd that no planes are on standby or scrambling, or does this suggest that the raid was small so that the air commander just didn't bother preparing other aircraft?

That's a bit spooky.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 6937

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 2:51:07 AM

Canoerebel

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Probably nobody's quite sure. We do this all the time, but sometimes it's hard to know for certain, and we're reluctant to make a wrong answer, so we err on the side of the "certainty standard."

Here's what I'm going to do: the herd will move four hexes NW (the course of action Cap suggested a turn back). SW towards Eniwetok is preferable, but John still has ships there. I don't want to lose sorties against riff-raff this early in the operation. Death Star will be operating deep for a long time, so sortie percentage is more important than usual.

I'll be holding my breath next turn.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 6938

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 3:03:47 AM

T Rav

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CR,

I'm not the droid you are looking for. Hopefully one of the big boys can answer before you send the turn, but you are seem to have most things figured out.

Go Navy!
T Rav

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 6939

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 3:06:04 AM

alaviner

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From: Blacksburg, Va
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I will take a stab and say that it was just a case of a single small strike and the air commander did not want all the CAP committed to that one strike. Think of Midway when the entire Japanese CAP was pulled down chasing TBDs just when the SBDs came in.

_____________________________

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Post #: 6940

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 3:08:40 AM

Canoerebel

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Thanks, NCForest. Of course, you are now on the record and will be held accountable for any mishaps. This is the case even though I determined my course of action, entered the orders, and sent the turn before you posted. I am a lawyer looking for a scapegoat. A wolf from the Wolfpack will do.

:)

Seriously, thanks. I think that's what's going on. Let's see.

(in reply to alaviner)

Post #: 6941

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 3:37:52 AM

BBfanboy

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I am wondering what the range setting for each CAP squadron is. If you set them to a wide circle to cover more TFs, that will disperse the CAP around the circle's area and only a small % will be in position to engage.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to alaviner)

Post #: 6942

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 3:40:07 AM

Canoerebel

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I have CAP set at range 6, along with dive bombers and TBFs. This, of course, is to permit offensive strikes in the event of a carrier battle.

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Post #: 6943

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 3:43:47 AM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I have CAP set at range 6, along with dive bombers and TBFs. This, of course, is to permit offensive strikes in the event of a carrier battle.

I am not sure about this, but I think if you have CAP (set to escort duty, not sweep) set at a lower number than the strike aircraft, when the strike flies any fighters not busy as CAP will fly with the strike at whatever range. Can anyone confirm?

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 6944

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 4:07:19 AM

Canoerebel

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Oh, so you're saying if I have CAP set at 40% range zero, and the strike aircraft fly a sortie at range six, the remaining 60% of the fighters will fly escort (even though technically the fighters are set to less than range six)?

If that's so, it would allow me to minimize fatigue by setting CAP range to 0, knowing that the balance of the fighters would still escort the bombers.

Is that true? Does it make sense to do things that way?

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 6945

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 4:11:11 AM

apbarog

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When I've set CAP at 40% and range 0, I get 40% flying in that hex intercepting, and 60% that may scramble to intercept. I never get any of them to fly on escort for strikes at this setting.

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Post #: 6946

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 4:14:53 AM

Canoerebel

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Okay, I think that's always been my experience too. So I'll stick with the tried and true settings unless we get confirmation otherwise.

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Post #: 6947

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 4:40:30 AM

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I've not noticed any comments/reports of your carriers flying ASW missions. Are you not using any of your carrier air in that role?

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Post #: 6948

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 4:55:44 AM

Canoerebel

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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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No, I don't. Only some of the cruiser floatplanes are flying ASW. I know the protocols for configuring SBDs to fly ASW missions, but I've always felt that following ASW TFs was the most effective strategy. I've been relying on CV TFs following ASW TFs to ward off enemy subs. It's worked pretty well in the game, though this might be due to pure chance rather than design. To this point, though, the only carriers I've lost to subs happened when the TFs weren't following ASW.

In these waters, where KB and LBA might team up, I want my strike aircraft available to strike.

I don't want to lose any ships, of course, but a handful, a dozen, a score of merchant vessels aren't the issue. I have lots of extra fuel, lots of extra supply, and I expect the targeted bases to be mostly undefended or lightly defended. So the issue here is the carriers (and of course combat ships, due to their value). If the capital ships manage to make it through these waters intact, everything will be fine. If fate is about to teach me a lesson, though, I'll divert to the secondary target and modify my methods.

I hope fate isn't cranky tonight.

(in reply to DW)

Post #: 6949

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 7:31:46 AM

CaptBeefheart

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Was your big CV stack at 131,100, or was that a nearby TF? That looks to me like bleeding CAP over a nearby TF.

Cheers,
CC

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Post #: 6950

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 8:10:24 AM

Lokasenna

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The range setting on your CAP is the "problem." The "diverted" planes tell me that they're really spread out. I never fly CAP at 6 hex range. I devote units entirely to CAP or entirely to escort if at all possible. Maybe once a game will I do a range 7-8 CAP on one unit. This produces a much more powerful CAP but comes at the cost of needing to have everything in the same hex or at least set LRCAP over TFs that you know will be in another hex.

Also, the reason 40% CAP on range 0 will not launch any escorts is because of the range 0 setting.

I think 40% CAP is an awfully low percentage since you're now within a handful of days of landing, and also note that 10% rest is redundant in almost every case here. I would remove the rest setting entirely if you reduce range to 0, because by default any plane/pilot not flying will be resting. By removing it, you allow for more planes to scramble if necessary. Back to the 40% rate, I would change it to at least 60% unless you are trying to deceive him on your carrier numbers for some reason, if he is not paying attention to unit counts. USN CV planes are all low SR so can easily sustain a 60% CAP rate indefinitely. Mine frequently sustain 80% with no problems, although altitude is also a factor.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 8:23:56 AM

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quote:

In these waters, where KB and LBA might team up, I want my strike aircraft available to strike.

I see.

I've seen a lot of AARs where the authors write of a CV task force with ASW patrols deployed sailing through an area and sweeping it clean of any subs lurking about.

Usually to much gloating or gnashing of teeth, depending...

But, I understand your caution about moving into hostile waters and wanting your full complement of strike aircraft available for more important threats.

While KB is diminished, it's still a powerful force. All John would need to toss a wrench into your works is one lucky engagement.

You're right in that losing a few ships to subs isn't going to set you back appreciably, but a one sided carrier exchange would.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 9:15:40 AM

JeffroK

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Only 12 minutes notice, not enough reaction time??

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 9:48:41 AM

Encircled

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Us JFBs are weeping at the size of that fleet.

Its all a bit excessive for Marcus (my first guess) I think!

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 11:01:24 AM

Itdepends

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Completely agree with Lokasenna regarding CAP settings. I also neglect using carrier aircraft for ASW duty as the allies but my opponent uses it as the IJN to great effect.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 11:55:06 AM

Canoerebel

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Commander Cody, Death Star was in the same hex (131,100).

Thanks, Loka, for the suggestions. I had already bumped up CAP to 50%. Next turn, I'll remove the 10% rest. Then I'll divide my fighters into two groups: some at a high percentage with range zero (CAP) only [this will include the Corsairs, as NYGiants suggested several days ago) the rest at 0% CAP with range 6 (these to escort bombers).

For what its worth, the settings during the Great Naval Battle were 50% CAP, no rest %, and range 6 for all fighter squadrons (except those few squadrons with lower ranges).

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 12:17:48 PM

HansBolter

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I also think your CAP is too high.

You really only need high CAP over land bases that can be swept at high altitude.

Your opponent can't sweep your carriers so you don't need to "out altitude" him to gain the dive advantage.

You already have an advantage over his escorts as they are hobbled by the escort role.

I would seek to get my CAP at altitudes no more than 2k above the expected altitudes of incoming raids.

20K appears to be too high to me.

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Hans

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Post #: 6957

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 12:57:40 PM

JohnDillworth

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Planes on search and ASW will find subs for the ASW ships. They should be used together

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 3:06:30 PM

Cap Mandrake

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Wait a minute. Am I to understand that a carrier fighter squadron set to "escort" and let's say 40% CAP will NOT fly escort with the non-CAP planes of the squadron if the opportunity arises?
I don't think that is true. I think the AI assigns them to strike missions if it decides to go after a target. I am 99% sure I have seen a carrier with 1 fighter squadron perform both duties in the same turn.

Neither do I believe that the 40% CAP means that 40% of the squadron is up in the air with the other 60% waiting to scramble. My recollection is that the 40% is the maximum allotment to CAP with the planes cycled back to the AF or the carrier to refuel, rearm.

Lastly, I'm not sure I believe this business about "CAP range". The range setting is for strike/escort missions.

On the other hand, I have read about 2.5% of the manual.

< Message edited by Cap Mandrake -- 6/21/2016 3:10:34 PM >

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Post #: 6959

RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 6/21/2016 3:19:34 PM

Cap Mandrake

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There are quite a few things in AE that become a matter of faith when the "Good Book" is silent on the matter and nobody can compel Saint Michael to come out of his hermit cave and issue a gospel on the matter. As a consequence, the brotherhood of the AE seems to be splintering into sects. Thank God gay marriage is not modeled in the game.

(in reply to Cap Mandrake)

Post #: 6960

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