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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/29/2016 6:38:17 PM

JocMeister

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I may have made a horrible mistake by turning on upgrades for the 2nd Armored.

2nd Armored ID just upgraded its 153 Lees to 24 Shermans basically gutting itself. How could it upgrade when there were only 24 Shermans in the pool?!

EDIT: Apparently this happened like 4 turns ago. Looking at the turn before it happened there is no = sign after the Lees. Is this a bug?

< Message edited by JocMeister -- 6/29/2016 6:53:03 PM >

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/29/2016 6:51:35 PM

RangerJoe

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I would guess Sumatra or Java.

Something about overkill, it is nice when you do it. I learned a very important lesson a LONG time ago: "Why use a little hammer if you have a big one?"

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/29/2016 7:39:06 PM

RogerJNeilson

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I'd say the same, his forces are on the other side of the world and Palembang alone will cripple his economy.

Staging from Diego or Colombo

Roger

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/29/2016 7:55:16 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

I may have made a horrible mistake by turning on upgrades for the 2nd Armored.

2nd Armored ID just upgraded its 153 Lees to 24 Shermans basically gutting itself. How could it upgrade when there were only 24 Shermans in the pool?!

EDIT: Apparently this happened like 4 turns ago. Looking at the turn before it happened there is no = sign after the Lees. Is this a bug?

I thought the = sign meant there is enough of the current TOE device to upgrade to that device. The = sign doesn't look "past" a TOE upgrade to a future device. What is the Sherman TOE amount?

That said, I don't know either.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 6/29/2016 7:58:10 PM >

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/29/2016 8:08:51 PM

JocMeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I thought the = sign meant there is enough of the current TOE device to upgrade to that device. The = sign doesn't look "past" a TOE upgrade to a future device. What is the Sherman TOE amount?

That said, I don't know either.

The Sherman TOE amount is the same as the Lee. 153. I never imagine it would upgrade without having a full complement of tanks. I just wanted to upgrade the rifle squads.

Kind of sucks for me if it isn�t a bug since it removes my biggest hammer. 2nd armored was 550 AV or something like that. Now its a lot less with 120 mediums gone.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/29/2016 8:26:49 PM

tiemanjw

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quote:

I may have made a horrible mistake by turning on upgrades for the 2nd Armored. 2nd Armored ID just upgraded its 153 Lees to 24 Shermans basically gutting itself. How could it upgrade when there were only 24 Shermans in the pool?! EDIT: Apparently this happened like 4 turns ago. Looking at the turn before it happened there is no = sign after the Lees. Is this a bug?

I would guess that it was a TO&E upgrade, and not a simple device upgrade.

Looking at scenario 2 in the editor, the 2nd armored has 18 M4s, 168 M3s and 77 M5s... but it uses TO&E 2353 which is listed as 18 M4 CS, 168 M4s and 77 M24s.
So my guess is that the game decided to do a TO&E upgrade, and you got what shermans were laying around. Some of the Indian divisions have a similar issue where they shrink considerably due to a TO&E upgrade.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/30/2016 12:54:50 AM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
I thought the = sign meant there is enough of the current TOE device to upgrade to that device. The = sign doesn't look "past" a TOE upgrade to a future device. What is the Sherman TOE amount?

That said, I don't know either.

The Sherman TOE amount is the same as the Lee. 153. I never imagine it would upgrade without having a full complement of tanks. I just wanted to upgrade the rifle squads.

Kind of sucks for me if it isn�t a bug since it removes my biggest hammer. 2nd armored was 550 AV or something like that. Now its a lot less with 120 mediums gone.

Put all other units that might take the Sherman on Do Not Upgrade. If there are 153 Shermans in the pool the 24 could be the initial installment and they should keep coming. Aircraft squadrons seem to only take 12 upgrade replacements at a time, no matter the pool size or the supply situation, so maybe tanks have a limit on how many per day you can test drive!

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/30/2016 1:36:09 AM

ny59giants

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It take 6 months worth of Shermans to fill out an American Armored Div. If the 2nd can never leave the WC, then this is truly a costly lesson.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/30/2016 4:20:40 AM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

It take 6 months worth of Shermans to fill out an American Armored Div. If the 2nd can never leave the WC, then this is truly a costly lesson.

But can they disband? Do they withdraw regularly, or is it "withdraw out of theater" (which loses the devices)?

If the answer to disbanding is no, or they withdraw out of theater, then you should immediately turn replacements off for that division IMO.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/30/2016 5:47:30 AM

JocMeister

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So basically a TOE upgrade will completely disregard the number of devices/squads in the pool and is not a bug? This sucks big time because I really needed the 2nd armored for my counter attack. Basically it now hardly of any use besides perhaps guard duty.

I don�t think it will disband as its perm restricted? If I remember correctly if a unit is restricted you have to buy it out before you can disband it. So a perm restricted unit shouldnt be able to disband at all....

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/30/2016 5:54:45 AM

JocMeister

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Invasion West Coast D+4
_____________________________________________________________________________

Only gotten the replay so its really hard to make a proper update. Basically nothing positive for the allies this turn. I sent a small DD TF to hunt a CVE TF SW of SF. They instead ran into one of the odd TFs Jeff likes to create.

quote:

Night Time Surface Combat, near San Francisco at 214,80, Range 7,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CA Furutaka, Shell hits 2
DD Kagero, Shell hits 1

Allied Ships
DD McCalla
DD Bancroft
DD Gansevoort, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Gillespie
DD Hobby, Shell hits 2
DD Kalk, Shell hits 2, on fire

It then runs into a even stranger TF...

quote:

Night Time Surface Combat, near San Luis Obispo at 213,84, Range 8,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
CL Isuzu
CL Abukuma, Shell hits 1
CL Tama
CL Kiso
CL Tenryu, Shell hits 1
CL Tatsuta, Shell hits 1

Allied Ships
DD McCalla
DD Bancroft, Shell hits 1
DD Gillespie, Shell hits 2, heavy fires
DD Hobby, Shell hits 1
DD Kalk, Shell hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage

The Allied TF is chased down and sunk. First allied casualties of the invasion. Don�t have much left on the WC now besides PT boats and subs.

My subs sadly didn�t hit anything this turn. PT boats have now arrive in LA but they will have to be defensive for now.

Pretty upset by the loss of the 2nd Armored. Its a big blow for the Allies.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/30/2016 1:44:34 PM

JocMeister

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Still can�t get over that bloody TOE upgrade. Tried to replicate it in sandbox to no avail. Can�t repeat the behavior but obviously I can�t duplicate the situation. Made a thread on the main forum in the hopes of getting some clarification.

I do hope this is a bug...

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/30/2016 2:33:11 PM

RangerJoe

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You might not have to turn off the upgrades, just stockpile the devices that aren't upgraded after the upgrades. The infantry and engineer squads are upgraded so they can upgrade with no problem. Upgrade any other devices that you have and/or will have more than enough supplied. If you are still getting Shermans, split the division to increase the number supplied to the division and selectively upgrade certain devices if there is enough for the entire division. Reform the division when needed. If you haven't already, move the Corp and Army HQs closer to the divisions where you need the replacements.

The 2nd Armored division is not completely trashed, but it will not be the spearhead that it should be. Rather, it is more of a "support" division now.

One thing that I have learned, if you need more of a device, it appears that more are made in that month than would normally be made.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/30/2016 4:18:53 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

So basically a TOE upgrade will completely disregard the number of devices/squads in the pool and is not a bug? This sucks big time because I really needed the 2nd armored for my counter attack. Basically it now hardly of any use besides perhaps guard duty.

I don�t think it will disband as its perm restricted? If I remember correctly if a unit is restricted you have to buy it out before you can disband it. So a perm restricted unit shouldnt be able to disband at all....

That sounds right. I wasn't sure of this unit's restricted status.

Well, at least they aren't completely wasted - there's fighting to be had on the west coast! You'll eventually have plenty of Shermans - it's still early. Just either stockpile the devices you don't want to go into perm-restricted units and really micromanage replacements when you turn off stockpiling, or turn replacements off for these units.

Really, shouldn't you have more than enough between regularly scheduled reinforcements and the emergency package?

As for the TOE upgrade thing... I think I know what tiemanj is referring to, and it is a little odd. Basically, if the unit has 150 of Device 1 under TOE 1, but then switches to TOE 2 that uses Device 2 in place of Device 1, it will pull as many of Device 2 into the unit as it can and drop all of the Device 1 into the pools. Maybe. It still seems a little weird to me, and perhaps asking an expert (or even Michael) if it's WAD. Because "normally", the TOE for the unit would upgrade and then need 150 of Device 2, and then the unit wouldn't upgrade from Device 1 to 2 until there were 150 of Device 2 in the pools.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/30/2016 4:39:46 PM

JocMeister

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Yeah, I find it odd in the sense that I don�t think that this is what whoever designed the WC reinforcements intended. I�ll see if I get some more comments on the main forum before taking it further.

Might drop michealm a PM and ask his opinion on it. Normally I wouldn�t really care that much but as Ranger Joe says the 2nd armored was supposed to be the spearhead of the counter attack. Basically this removes 25% of my armored strength.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 6/30/2016 10:44:40 PM

crsutton

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Does this armored division eventually have to withdraw?

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/1/2016 12:04:43 AM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Does this armored division eventually have to withdraw?

If I understood correctly, "out of theater" meaning all devices are lost with it.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/1/2016 1:19:45 AM

RangerJoe

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According to the the screenshot of the unit on page 80 of this AAR, it is permanently restricted. There should be a way of returning said devices that were used to upgrade to the pool but only if the emergency reinforcements were to be activated. Of course, then there would be a surplus of older devices to burn.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/1/2016 6:12:59 AM

JocMeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Does this armored division eventually have to withdraw?

Nope, but its perma restricted so its will be of no use outside WC/Canada.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/1/2016 6:13:23 AM

JocMeister

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No turn from Jeff yet. I have to admit this extremely slow pace is starting to get to me.

Patience though. Vacation starts today and after next week its my turn to slow the game down. Will be travelling for over 2 weeks in July.

< Message edited by JocMeister -- 7/1/2016 8:51:30 AM >

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/1/2016 6:34:13 PM

JocMeister

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Allied counterattack
_____________________________________________________________________________

Still no turn. Jeff said one would come at lunchtime today his time. So it should be here shortly but I�m watching the last episode of GoT tonight so I won�t be able to flip it back.

Anyway. Since the 2nd armored is now out of the picture the allied counterattack begins next turn! The plan is very simple. We will counterattack the beachhead at Santa Ana. Recapture it from the evil Japanese and then chase them back into the sea.

The main object isn�t really to defeat the Japanese outright but rather to relieve pressure off SD. Jeff is moving forces out from the beachhead in 3 directions. Towards LA, SD and March field. I�m betting LA and March field are fake movements.

UPDATE:

Got the turn while writing on this update. The LA movement was NOT a fake. We now have troops in LA. Not a lot though as can be seen in the screen. Not really sure how to play this. I have to do something though. Flanking via March Field is an option but it will take a long time. I�m guessing about 2 weeks which could prove disastrous for SD.

A part of me want to counterattack the troops at LA. Doesn�t seem like a lot but there could be twice an many shifting into the hex next turn. I won�t be able to flip the turn tonight anyway so I got some time to ponder what to do.

Main thing here is that its time to start fighting back. I also need to apply as much pressure as possible in order to relieve some from SD. We have quite a potent force at LA even without the 2nd Armored.

5th, 6th and 13th Armored.
3rd Marines
40th and 41st Division
4th, 7th and 8th Motorized Division
194th Tank Battalion.

All in all almost 4000 AV. Not going to sit passive with that considering the pools I have at my disposal. Especially considering I have another 2000 or so incoming.

EDIT: I just saw I have overstacked LA. Going to pull some forces out.

Thoughts on counterattacking at LA? Looks like 2-4 IDs? Should be what 1200-1600 AV? Worst case scenario more troops shift in during the turn and I take a big hit. Might even lure Jeff to attack into the UH + level 9 forts if I do mess up...I have 2 fresh divisions in strat mode at March and Mojave that can rail in in a day and bolster defense if needed. But to be honest even the worst possible attack would put LA into danger.

Also have a Command and Corp HQ combo 34% prepped for LA...

I can also detach a couple divisions to roughen up the 6th Guards at Santa Barbera but that doesnt really accomplish anything. They can sit there for all I care. It won�t relive any pressure off SD in any case.

As I said I�ll ponder this overnight. But bottom line is that I have to do something to relieve pressure of SD. I don�t *think* there is any real danger but its not something to take unnecessary risks with.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by JocMeister -- 7/1/2016 6:58:30 PM >

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/1/2016 6:39:36 PM

JocMeister

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A short question on morale on airgroups.

The P47s squadrons arrived with only 50 morale. Its slowly recovered but is still in the 50-60 region. Do I dare use them? Normally I would never let them fly under 80 MRL...but things arn�t exactly normal.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/1/2016 7:11:40 PM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

A short question on morale on airgroups.

The P47s squadrons arrived with only 50 morale. Its slowly recovered but is still in the 50-60 region. Do I dare use them? Normally I would never let them fly under 80 MRL...but things arn�t exactly normal.

Better if higher, but I think the penalty is a tendency to cut & run. That would only be a catastrophe if they left other units in the lurch to be slaughtered.

But using them will slow or stop morale recovery. Check the command. Get the best you can - leadership, inspiration, air, and aggression. Resting them for 2 or 3 days should bump morale considerably, but if you need them now...

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/1/2016 7:57:58 PM

RangerJoe

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Put all of your armor to shock attack and charge. You should not need to worry about supplies at LA. Let the modern Cavalry charge the enemy right out of the hex. At this time, I don't think that the Japanese have that good anti-tank weapons. The infantry can support or stay in reserve in case you do get the retreat and they can follow right into the invasion hex. If you don't succeed in clearing LA, then evacuate any units too trashed to defend.

Use the P-47s as needed, sweep and/or escort bombers supporting Santa Barbara where there should not be a lot of resistance. Maybe go in high at Santa Ana to shut down the port to hinder supplies being off loaded while ground attack aircraft go in low and hit the enemy at LA. Some bombers might also target the airfield.

If he gets into the March Field hex, doesn't that cut the rail supply to LA? Move the infantry to hold it, but counter attacking there could be a disaster.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/1/2016 8:20:14 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Put all of your armor to shock attack and charge. You should not need to worry about supplies at LA. Let the modern Cavalry charge the enemy right out of the hex. At this time, I don't think that the Japanese have that good anti-tank weapons. The infantry can support or stay in reserve in case you do get the retreat and they can follow right into the invasion hex. If you don't succeed in clearing LA, then evacuate any units too trashed to defend.

Use the P-47s as needed, sweep and/or escort bombers supporting Santa Barbara where there should not be a lot of resistance. Maybe go in high at Santa Ana to shut down the port to hinder supplies being off loaded while ground attack aircraft go in low and hit the enemy at LA. Some bombers might also target the airfield.

If he gets into the March Field hex, doesn't that cut the rail supply to LA? Move the infantry to hold it, but counter attacking there could be a disaster.

The 47mm AT gun, as good as Japan gets in her IDs, is available in as many numbers as Lowpe wants it. It starts in 1/42 and has decent stats. Range 2, Effect 3, Pen 64, Accur 16, Anti-armor 52. Good enough to kill Shermans.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/1/2016 8:30:42 PM

JocMeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

A short question on morale on airgroups.

The P47s squadrons arrived with only 50 morale. Its slowly recovered but is still in the 50-60 region. Do I dare use them? Normally I would never let them fly under 80 MRL...but things arn�t exactly normal.

Better if higher, but I think the penalty is a tendency to cut & run. That would only be a catastrophe if they left other units in the lurch to be slaughtered.

But using them will slow or stop morale recovery. Check the command. Get the best you can - leadership, inspiration, air, and aggression. Resting them for 2 or 3 days should bump morale considerably, but if you need them now...

I do have some other units that I can use tomorrow so perhaps I should give the P47s some rest.

Leaders are as good as the come.

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/1/2016 8:36:46 PM

JocMeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Put all of your armor to shock attack and charge. You should not need to worry about supplies at LA. Let the modern Cavalry charge the enemy right out of the hex. At this time, I don't think that the Japanese have that good anti-tank weapons. The infantry can support or stay in reserve in case you do get the retreat and they can follow right into the invasion hex. If you don't succeed in clearing LA, then evacuate any units too trashed to defend.

Use the P-47s as needed, sweep and/or escort bombers supporting Santa Barbara where there should not be a lot of resistance. Maybe go in high at Santa Ana to shut down the port to hinder supplies being off loaded while ground attack aircraft go in low and hit the enemy at LA. Some bombers might also target the airfield.

If he gets into the March Field hex, doesn't that cut the rail supply to LA? Move the infantry to hold it, but counter attacking there could be a disaster.

While shock attacking sounds like fun I�m not too keen on it right now. I really don�t know what he has moved into LA and its a x3 terrain hex.

So its either a recon bombardment or a deliberate attack.

Already have an ID + a Tank Brigade at March Field. Also have another ID at Mojave. So if can reinforce quickly if needed. I think too soon for him to shift hex even if he started moving on D+1. Half the journey would be in mountains without roads. So 7-9 days for that alone if I count correctly?

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/1/2016 8:40:18 PM

JocMeister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
The 47mm AT gun, as good as Japan gets in her IDs, is available in as many numbers as Lowpe wants it. It starts in 1/42 and has decent stats. Range 2, Effect 3, Pen 64, Accur 16, Anti-armor 52. Good enough to kill Shermans.

I�m not sure here but I do seem to remember not losing a single Sherman in my game vs. Erik. Only disabled but not 1 lost during the entire war. Not that I can remember at least.

2 US Tank Battalions with Sherman would wreck a Japanese Tank division in x2 terrain. Same with a lone Indian Division. I tested this with Type 3 Medium tanks.

Sherman good. Japan tanks bad.

Or something. (Yes I�m drunk and just watched the last GoT episode!)

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/1/2016 9:08:41 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Thoughts on counterattacking at LA? Looks like 2-4 IDs? Should be what 1200-1600 AV? Worst case scenario more troops shift in during the turn and I take a big hit. Might even lure Jeff to attack into the UH + level 9 forts if I do mess up...I have 2 fresh divisions in strat mode at March and Mojave that can rail in in a day and bolster defense if needed. But to be honest even the worst possible attack would put LA into danger.

You spent a lot to build those forts. Want to give them away?

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RE: Invasion West Coast! - 7/1/2016 9:12:28 PM

HansBolter

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I would definitely NOT shock attack fresh units of unknown strength in 3X terrain.

You've gotta find out what is there.

You've gotta beat em down with air and land bombardments and deliberate attacks before they would have any where near enough disablements to allow for a shock attack.

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