Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Panzer Command: Ostfront >> Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread - 7/26/2016 9:10:57 PM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

I wanted to find some definitive information regarding the various 76.2 mm guns and ammunition/velocities etc. I figured that I would store this information here since the game is east Front based.

My initial search was to confirm that all the Soviet guns used the same ammunition as far as 76,2 mm caliber. It was something I had heard before but wanted to see what data is available now.

Some good sources...

http://ww2data.blogspot.com/

http://www.weapon.df.ru/ammo/76mm/divis1.html

It seems that my search also brought up a technical concern as far as velocities achieved by all these weapons using the same ammunition but having in some cases, different barrel lengths.

The F-22 divisional gun and the F-34 have different barrel lengths for sure. Some state the F-22 has a 51 cal. barrel while the F-34 (T34 gun) has a 41 cal. barrel. I believe the BR-350B round gave 655 m/s for the F-34 while the F-22 gave something like 710 m/s.

Post #: 1

RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread - 7/26/2016 9:13:12 PM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

It seems that the Soviet 76.2 mm AA gun actually used different ammunition. These weapons, like many other early designs, fell into German hands and use. I will also 'data-dump' some of the interesting German use and conversions and ammunition manufactured quantities etc. since wargamers have discussed this over the years.

(in reply to Elron Hubbub)

Post #: 2

RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread - 7/26/2016 10:35:40 PM

Mobius

Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elron Hubbub
The F-22 divisional gun and the F-34 have different barrel lengths for sure. Some state the F-22 has a 51 cal. barrel while the F-34 (T34 gun) has a 41 cal. barrel. I believe the BR-350B round gave 655 m/s for the F-34 while the F-22 gave something like 710 m/s.

That's near what I have. The F-34 is 41.5 calibers and the F-22 51.5 calibers. Though it seems these are German numbers and they round to the nearest .5 caliber. The ZiS-3 and F-22USV are 42 cal.
The L41-42 guns have either a 662m/s MV for the BR-350 and BR-350A and 655m/s for the BR-350B.
I have found the F-22 with a MV of 690m/s using Soviet ammo.
So when chambered to fire German ammo the PaK 39 goes from 662m/s to 710m/s and the PaK 36 goes from 690m/s to 740m/s. Both gain ~50m/s.

There's a couple other 76.2mm which may be experimental. The 76.2mm/L50 M-1933 with a MV of 710m/s and the 76.2mm /L51 K3 which had a MV of 813m/s.

< Message edited by Mobius -- 7/26/2016 10:53:36 PM >

_____________________________

All your Tanks are Belong to us!
panzer

(in reply to Elron Hubbub)

Post #: 3

RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread - 7/26/2016 11:05:53 PM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

I have read that the ZIS-3 had a longer barrel. This is a ZIS-3...it may actually may not have returned fully to battery.

This is a German converted USV....

and another USV pic...compare to the ZIS-3 one gun back in the pic...

Some sources say that the ZIS-3 used the F-22 barrel?

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Elron Hubbub -- 7/26/2016 11:30:37 PM >

(in reply to Mobius)

Post #: 4

RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread - 7/26/2016 11:55:00 PM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

The German manual H.Dv. 481/85 covers the German ammunition for the Pak 36 (r)

https://www.scribd.com/doc/142595303/H-Dv-481-85-Merkblatt-fur-die-Munition-der-7-62-cm-Panzerjagerkanone-36-11-06-1942

The Pzgr 39 rot is heftier than the Soviet projectile at 7.6 Kg. It is also listed at 2.6 Kg propellant in this document (June '42). In April '44, the Germans list the propellant at 2.45 Kg.

(in reply to Elron Hubbub)

Post #: 5

RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread - 7/26/2016 11:57:09 PM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

A late war report for the Pak 39 (r) {this is the USV weapon conversion} It confirms that the German manufactured ammunition was for both guns. For the USV-conversion,the muzzle velocity is only 675 M/s?

quote:

TM-E 30-451 (Handbook on German Military Forces (War Department) 1 March 1945:

page VII-35

i. 3-inch Antitank Gun (7.62 cm Pak 39).

(1) General Description. This 3-inch antitank gun is a modified version of the Russian field gun 7.62 cm F.K. 297 (r). the chamber is bored out, and a 7.62 Pak 36 muzzle brake is fitted. The breech mechanism is semiautomatic with a vertical sliding block. The mount has box-type trails and pneumatic tires.

(2) Characteristics.

Caliber 76.2mm (3 inches)
Length of tube 11 feet 5 inches
Weight in Action 3,360 pounds
Muzzle Velocity 2,230 feet per second
Traverse 57 degrees
Elevation -6 deg to +45 deg
Traction Motor-drawn

(3) Ammunition. This gun fires the same ammunition as the 7.62 Pak 36 (r), but has somewhat lower performance.

(in reply to Elron Hubbub)

Post #: 6

RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread - 7/27/2016 2:00:59 AM

Mobius

Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline

The Aberdeen test gives the MV as 2427f/s (740m/s) for the PaK 36. But report on one captured in the desert gives the MV of 2316 f/s. The Allies didn't have the equipment to determine the MV of the AP40 at the time.

< Message edited by Mobius -- 7/27/2016 2:01:15 AM >

_____________________________

All your Tanks are Belong to us!
panzer

(in reply to Elron Hubbub)

Post #: 7

RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread - 7/27/2016 5:14:12 AM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ARTILLERY3.htm

Interesting information regarding F-22 in Finnish use.

It is worth noting that they somehow used German HEAT projectiles while they did not have the full-monty German conversion to the weapon. Also, they had two self produced AP rounds full and semi charge?

The German conversion is worth mentioning in any case. many people say they "rebored" the weapon. In doing so, they actually are removing the rifling a bit and pushing the overall cartridge, which is longer in the 'pak 40 cartridge brass', further into the weapon. So, in effect, the actual travel of the German projectile is shorter. Instead of a "L51" weapon, it may actually be something like L48 or so. Again, the Germans are throwing a heavier projectile. Also, a much better APCBC-HE projectile. It has much more powder behind it. The Soviets have something close to 1 Kg and the Germans have 2.6 Kg (initially). It really is a great weapon and a God-send for the struggling Germans. Sort of funny...they invade Russia with a bunch a stolen tanks, lose them and also the crappy light German tanks, yet they capture thousands of usefull guns and millions of rounds of ammunition.

(in reply to Mobius)

Post #: 8

RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread - 7/27/2016 5:32:17 AM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mobius

The Aberdeen test gives the MV as 2427f/s (740m/s) for the PaK 36. But report on one captured in the desert gives the MV of 2316 f/s. The Allies didn't have the equipment to determine the MV of the AP40 at the time.

I a leery regarding captured North Africa ammunition. The Fur Tropen reduced propellant rears its head. I recently read a British report and they specifically called out KWK ammunition as marked as Fur Tropen and the numbers reflected it.

The German pak 36 (r) certainly had PzGr 40 manufactured for it and would easily have a chance of getting some compared to a Pak 40. They also had and used great quantities of HEAT ammunition.

(in reply to Mobius)

Post #: 9

RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread - 7/28/2016 11:44:44 AM

Mobius

Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline

The Zis-5 using BR-350 is 662 m/s.
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1065&context=dodmilintel

More Russian data.
http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2016/02/experimental-tank-guns-1940.html
http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2013/05/penetration-part-3.html

< Message edited by Mobius -- 7/28/2016 12:43:48 PM >

_____________________________

All your Tanks are Belong to us!
panzer

(in reply to Elron Hubbub)

Post #: 10

RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread - 7/28/2016 5:04:17 PM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

As far as the archive awareness info...

The 76 mm model 1902/30 should really be the /40 version if they are saying it has the same muzzle velocity as the F-34. I would assume that the USV is the model 38 (39).

The F-22 does not appear here? Strange?

The AA gun should be the model 38 which had that high velocity and different ammunition. I will have to see if the Germans developed their own ammunition for these AA guns.

The Soviets seem to insist that all T-34, KV, Divisional guns share the same weak ammunition.

The early T-34 76.2mm weapon, the L11, is another instance of two barrels, from the same gun firing the same ammunition. One could sort of get a simple idea how barrel length effects the velocity.

(in reply to Mobius)

Post #: 11

RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread - 7/28/2016 7:47:17 PM

Mobius

Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elron Hubbub
The Soviets seem to insist that all T-34, KV, Divisional guns share the same weak ammunition.

And always 655ms or 660m/s.
Maybe one test is at 0 elevation and one is at Kubinka's 614 ft? This may give as much as 3 m/s difference at the higher elevation.

_____________________________

All your Tanks are Belong to us!
panzer

(in reply to Elron Hubbub)

Post #: 12

RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread - 7/30/2016 11:30:07 PM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

From another thread...Discussing the Germans dropping the (r) for weapons like the 7,62 cm Pak 36...

Re: 76.2 mm Pak 36 Firing Table Data
Postby Yoozername � 29 Jul 2016 17:12

I suppose that the 'ownership' was considered German after extensive rework and ammunition manufacture. Possibly, this also explains the FK 39 designation for the reworked USV 76.2mm weapon. It also helped changing to 'FK" since Pak 39 refers to the 7,5 cm L48 weapon of the Hetzer and JgdPzr IV.

But, again, I believe the Germans did manufacture its (possessive pronoun) own 'stock' version of the Soviet 76.2 mm ammunition, and also a longer version to use in the reworked Pak 36. I will have to search but there is a side by side picture of the German and Soviet 'stock' ammunition somewhere. Most people are familiar with the German 7.62 cm Pzgr 39 rot used along with the Pak 40 cartridge case.

So...this...

quote:

The first projectiles had the "russisch. Hulse" with a Russian Ladungsaufbau 1.145 Kg of 9/7 CB pulverart, later the German hulse with an Ladungsaufbau 1.312 Kg Digl.Rp.-60.6-(310-3/1) pulverangaben.

...refers to the standard Soviet ammunition and its German counterpart (what projectile?)...while this...

quote:

The British Ordnance Board Critical Velocity graph quoted by F.M. von Senger u. Etterlin, with 7.54 Kg wt. and 740 m/s muzzle velocity are for guns captured in Africa with pen of 0 and 30 degrees deflection (vs. BRITISH armor plate) of 133/108 mm at 0 YARDS, and 78/64 mm at 2500 YARDS.

...actually refers to the German modified Pak 36 with the initial 2.6 Kg of propellant.

This...

quote:

H.Dv. 119/327 edition dated October 1944:
7.62 cm PzGr 39 rot of 7.6 Kg and 710 m/s MV with velocities at range and official 30 degree deflection performance figures.
100 meters 699 m/s 96 mm pen.
300 meters 678 m/s 92 mm pen.
500 meters 658 m/s 89 mm pen.
1000 meters 607 m/s 80 mm pen.
1500 meters 559 m/s 71 mm pen.
2000 meters 514 m/s 63 mm pen.
2500 meters 472 m/s 55 mm pen.
3000 meters 433 m/s 48 mm pen.
Treffer % firing at 2.5/2 meter target with 50% St. breite/hohe: 100 m 100(100)% .1/.1, 300 m 100(100)% .2/.2, 500 m 100(92)% .3/.4, 1000 m 90(52)% .6/.8, 1500 m 66(25)% 1.0/1.3, 2000 m 42(12)% 1.4/1.8, 2500 m 26(07)% 1.9/2.5, 3000 meters 17(05)% 2.4/3.3.

...refers to the later cartridge given in Merkblatt 28/1 from April 1944. That is, a reduced charge of 2.45 Kg and this ammunition is common to both the Pak 36 and the FK 39 (aka Pak 39 (r)).

Also, this...

quote:

TM-E 30-451 (Handbook on German Military Forces (War Department) 1 March 1945:

page VII-35

i. 3-inch Antitank Gun (7.62 cm Pak 39).

(1) General Description. This 3-inch antitank gun is a modified version of the Russian field gun 7.62 cm F.K. 297 (r). the chamber is bored out, and a 7.62 Pak 36 muzzle brake is fitted. The breech mechanism is semiautomatic with a vertical sliding block. The mount has box-type trails and pneumatic tires.

(2) Characteristics.

Caliber 76.2mm (3 inches)
Length of tube 11 feet 5 inches
Weight in Action 3,360 pounds
Muzzle Velocity 2,230 feet per second
Traverse 57 degrees
Elevation -6 deg to +45 deg
Traction Motor-drawn

(3) Ammunition. This gun fires the same ammunition as the 7.62 Pak 36 (r), but has somewhat lower performance.

Seems to confirm that both modified guns are using the same ammunition, and also both have a lower velocity than previous tests. The Pak 36 is often quoted as having 740 M/s but later it is 710 M/s.

< Message edited by Elron Hubbub -- 7/30/2016 11:31:42 PM >

(in reply to Mobius)

Post #: 13

RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread - 7/30/2016 11:42:33 PM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mobius

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elron Hubbub
The Soviets seem to insist that all T-34, KV, Divisional guns share the same weak ammunition.

And always 655ms or 660m/s.
Maybe one test is at 0 elevation and one is at Kubinka's 614 ft? This may give as much as 3 m/s difference at the higher elevation.

A real test would capture all atmospheric conditions especially ambient temperature. 5 M/s is within 1% of the values being measured. I wonder how accurate the Soviets or anyone's measurements were in WWII.

(in reply to Mobius)

Post #: 14

RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread - 8/1/2016 12:25:38 PM

Mobius

Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elron Hubbub
A real test would capture all atmospheric conditions especially ambient temperature. 5 M/s is within 1% of the values being measured. I wonder how accurate the Soviets or anyone's measurements were in WWII.

Ballistics on cannons are usually done per naval guns. The UK and US naval standards is computed at sea level pressure and 59�. An alternate standard I found was at 78�. I don't know if the Germans had this standard. The Soviets not being a naval power probably used Kubinka test results without adjusting them to a naval standard. As to temperature, 59� might be rare for Russia.

The US did some ballistic testing and research at the University of New Mexico. Which I think is at Albuquerque, New Mexico. That is ~5,300 ft. I wonder how well that matched Watertown tests.

< Message edited by Mobius -- 8/1/2016 12:37:26 PM >

_____________________________

All your Tanks are Belong to us!
panzer

(in reply to Elron Hubbub)

Post #: 15

RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread - 8/21/2016 4:30:45 PM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

The Soviets actually had two 76mm cartridges for this class of guns prewar it seems. One was a 'hot' load. Evidently packing about a third more powder. The longer barreled F-22 would surely get a higher velocity from it.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Mobius)

Post #: 16

RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread - 8/21/2016 5:21:49 PM

Ratzki

Posts: 581
Joined: 8/18/2008
From: Chilliwack, British Columbia
Status: offline

Was it a faster or slower burning powder, volumn of powder does not matter that much, if at all. Now if powder is exactly the same in both loads you may have an argument.

< Message edited by Ratzki -- 8/21/2016 5:23:10 PM >

(in reply to Elron Hubbub)

Post #: 17

RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread - 8/21/2016 7:48:55 PM

Mobius

Posts: 10339
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elron Hubbub
The Soviets actually had two 76mm cartridges for this class of guns prewar it seems. One was a 'hot' load. Evidently packing about a third more powder. The longer barreled F-22 would surely get a higher velocity from it.

If that is from early war there are a number of 76mm guns with less than 41 calibers length that could of been using the shorty.

_____________________________

All your Tanks are Belong to us!
panzer

(in reply to Elron Hubbub)

Post #: 18

RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread - 8/23/2016 11:05:56 PM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

Miles Krogfus posted the velocities. I will edit it in. It was a higher velocity. And, yes, the Soviets were concerned about German Monster tanks attacking them. But, after the invasion, and the apparent weak armor on most every German tank, they just made the 'standard' version. Firing the hot one from an L11 barrel would be a sight to see.

The Germans produced their own 350mm case ammunition for the captured Soviet 76mm weapons. It had something like 1.32 Kg of German powder and used a large capacity HE Pzgr 39 (7.1 Kg) that looks very similar to a 88mm APCBC to me. They later produced a small capacity 7,62 cm Pzgr 39 rot (7.6 Kg) that was used in the reworked F-22 and USV guns that took the Pak 40 cartridge 'brass'.

(in reply to Mobius)

Post #: 19

RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread - 8/23/2016 11:39:27 PM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

quote:

H.Dv.119/117 Vorlaufige Schusstafel for the Soviet FK 296(r) May 1942 gives these MV of projectiles with 1080 grams of Russian 9/7 propellant: Sprenggranatpatrone 284 and Stahlgussgranpatrone 287 of 706 m/s, while 1943 H.Dv.119/3121 Vorlaufige Geschutzfuhrertafel for the FK 296(r) und Selbstfabrlafette states 713 m/s.

The 1942 figure for the Russian APBC BR 350 is 687 m/s, the 1943 MV for the model BR 350 A is 698 m/s, using the same 1080 grams amount of 9/7 propellant. No German Pzgr figures given in the 1942 FT.

For 1943: Pzgr Patr 39(r) MV of 660 m/s, Pzgr Patr 39 rot(r) MV of 630 m/s, Pzgr 40(r) of 850 m/s. The Pzgr projectile mentioned earlier, with 1145 grams of 9/7 propellant had on its case:
Fur Tropen!
PT=+25 (degrees) C

It is interesting that the Germans tried both the high capacity HE Pzgr 39 and the low capacity HE Pzgr 39 rot on teh 350mm case. Note the reduced velocities from the only variable being weight.

quote:

German hulse with an Ladungsaufbau 1.312 Kg Digl.Rp.-60.6-(310-3/1) pulverangaben

This is the normal weight of propellant. The 'Fur Tropen' weight is 1.145 Kg.

< Message edited by Elron Hubbub -- 8/23/2016 11:49:43 PM >

(in reply to Elron Hubbub)

Post #: 20

RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread - 8/24/2016 5:41:49 PM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

http://www.lonesentry.com/ordnance/7-62-cm-feldkanone-36-r-field-gun-ex-russian.html

This photo shows the interim Pak 36 (r). That is, it has the shield modification along with the moving of the elevation wheel to the gunners side and a German sight, but it fires the Soviet 350mm case. Either using captured Soviet ammunition, or German designed copies.

Some people claim that the muzzle brake is a sign of the actual reworked bore Pak 36. There are some photos of these guns without shields also.

The US data is interesting in that it gives rifling length, tube length and total length. The L51 usually associated with this gun's description actually works out to the total length (face of breech to end of tube). As far as I am concerned, the length that matters is the rifling length. This is physically where the pressure gets the projectile moving. But it seems that different nationalities have their own standards.

Note the elevation of 72 degrees! This was because the gun had a specification to also be a AA weapon! After the Germans moved the elevation wheel to the gunner's side, this was greatly decreased. Supposedly, the early Soviet prototype for this weapon (F-22) had a specifically designed cartridge case, perhaps like the Soviet 76mm AA gun, but it was reworked to use the standard Soviet 350mm case. They really missed a chance to have a Tiger killer IMO.

The data seems to point to a Tungsten Carbide round for both the 350mm case and also the 'Pak 40' case. Also, it enjoyed a period where these ammunition types were actually supplied.

SPECIFICATIONS

Caliber 76.2 mm (3 ins.)
Weight (complete) 3,619 lb.
Weight (firing position) 3,564 lb.
Length (overall) 22 ft. 6 1/4 ins.
Length of gun 153 ins.
Height (traveling position)
Height (firing position)
Width (overall)
Width of trail spread
Length of rifling 120 ins.
Length of tube 12 ft. 2 ins.
No. of grooves 32 R.H. Polygroove form; Twist-1 in 25 Uniform
Width of grooves 0.196 in. (5 mm)
Depth of grooves 0.033 in. (0.84 mm)
Width of lands 0.078 in. (2 mm)
Muzzle velocity 2,249 f/s (H.E.�2,335 f/s)
Max. range (horizontal) (A.P.-H.E.) 14,000 yds.
Rate of fire
Traverse 60�
Elevation 72�
Depression 4�
Length of recoil (average) H.E.-A.P.H.E.�31.1 ins.
Ammunition H.E.-A.P.H.E.-A.P. 40
Wt. of Projectile H.E.�13.45 lbs.
A.P.H.E.�14.2 lbs.
A.P. 40�9.2 lbs.

< Message edited by Elron Hubbub -- 8/24/2016 5:50:56 PM >

(in reply to Elron Hubbub)

Post #: 21

RE: Soviet 76.2 mm guns/ammunition thread - 8/24/2016 6:03:36 PM

Elron Hubbub

Posts: 117
Joined: 7/31/2015
Status: offline

Appears to show a German made Tungsten Carbide 350mm case cartridge.