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RE: ETA? - 9/14/2016 4:01:21 PM

Curtis Lemay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

First release of Microsoft Foundation Class Library was in 1992 with their C/C++ compiler. Or so I hear.

But I think Norm was dragging code over from earlier games. Who knows how early?

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Post #: 121

RE: ETA? - 9/14/2016 4:22:32 PM

BradK82

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I may be wrong but reading between the lines it seems what I am hearing is that there just can't be much more streched out of this code as it exist. It may require some major overhauling precipitating a delay.

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Post #: 122

RE: ETA? - 9/14/2016 5:09:56 PM

Curtis Lemay

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BradK82

I may be wrong but reading between the lines it seems what I am hearing is that there just can't be much more streched out of this code as it exist. It may require some major overhauling precipitating a delay.

Oh, you can stretch anything you want out of it - it's just harder to do than if it already had MFC. We have to build everything from scratch, whereas MFC would let us just plug in already built-in components. For example, Ralph had to make the scroll bars from scratch - and then spend ages perfecting them. But, once we get the UI finished, that will all be behind us. Game Mechanics are "under the hood" and independent of graphics (usually).

For sure, there will be no delay for any such "major overhaul".

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Post #: 123

RE: ETA? - 9/14/2016 5:16:03 PM

Lobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BradK82

I may be wrong but reading between the lines it seems what I am hearing is that there just can't be much more streched out of this code as it exist. It may require some major overhauling precipitating a delay.

Oh my.

It's been about seven years for TOAW 3.5/TOAW 4.0 already. What's another four or five?

No, I don't see this happening either. Maybe, in another ten years, if there's a TOAW 5. I'll just be ashes by then so I don't really care. Just trying to stay alive long enough to see this iteration completed.

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Post #: 124

RE: ETA? - 9/14/2016 6:09:11 PM

BradK82

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Thanks for clarifying. I am for sure no programmer. Just imagining that as the core code gets older it gets more difficult. When I said delay I was referring to the type of things you mentioned not indicating further expected delays.

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Post #: 125

RE: ETA? - 9/14/2016 6:16:57 PM

BradK82

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

quote:

ORIGINAL: BradK82

I may be wrong but reading between the lines it seems what I am hearing is that there just can't be much more streched out of this code as it exist. It may require some major overhauling precipitating a delay.

Oh my.

It's been about seven years for TOAW 3.5/TOAW 4.0 already. What's another four or five?

No, I don't see this happening either. Maybe, in another ten years, if there's a TOAW 5. I'll just be ashes by then so I don't really care. Just trying to stay alive long enough to see this iteration completed.

Has it been 7 years. WOW time flies.

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Post #: 126

RE: ETA? - 9/14/2016 9:00:12 PM

Catch21

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From: Dublin
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
Just trying to stay alive long enough to see this iteration completed.

Me too. FWiW Curtis Lemay has been with TOAW longer than me (1999), and I figure he's a little older.

So if he thinks he's gonna live to see TOAW IV, and says be patient, I assume he's a timeline in mind that includes him being able to play it, or design in it, or both.

Sort of gives a new meaning to a drop dead date for the TOAW IV project.

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Post #: 127

RE: ETA? - 9/15/2016 6:28:28 AM

FF_1079

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

quote:

ORIGINAL: BradK82

I may be wrong but reading between the lines it seems what I am hearing is that there just can't be much more streched out of this code as it exist. It may require some major overhauling precipitating a delay.

Oh my.

It's been about seven years for TOAW 3.5/TOAW 4.0 already. What's another four or five?

No, I don't see this happening either. Maybe, in another ten years, if there's a TOAW 5. I'll just be ashes by then so I don't really care. Just trying to stay alive long enough to see this iteration completed.

To be fair, the announcement of the new version of TOAW IV was only made 14 months ago. I'm sure there had been a lot of talk since the release of TOAW III about the next version, but the announcement date from Matrix came on 7/72015.

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Post #: 128

RE: ETA? - 9/16/2016 4:03:00 AM

Lobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FF_1079

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

quote:

ORIGINAL: BradK82

I may be wrong but reading between the lines it seems what I am hearing is that there just can't be much more streched out of this code as it exist. It may require some major overhauling precipitating a delay.

Oh my.

It's been about seven years for TOAW 3.5/TOAW 4.0 already. What's another four or five?

No, I don't see this happening either. Maybe, in another ten years, if there's a TOAW 5. I'll just be ashes by then so I don't really care. Just trying to stay alive long enough to see this iteration completed.

To be fair, the announcement of the new version of TOAW IV was only made 14 months ago. I'm sure there had been a lot of talk since the release of TOAW III about the next version, but the announcement date from Matrix came on 7/72015.

To be fair? Okay. Let's be fair. Let's look at the background. TOAW4 is actually TOAW3.5 patch expanded. Much of it consists of the promised 3.5 patch. So 3.5 morphed into 4. So the development of 4 started with the patch, 3.5, several years ago. Here's some reading for you:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3462323 TOAW 3.5 is being resumed
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3462345 TOAW 4.0 announcement by Ralph 11/9/13
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3261432 Erik Rutkins concerning Ralph's absence 1/31/13
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3462347 Ralph's apology for being AWOL 11/9/13
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2957855 What has happened to the development of 3.5? 11/22/11
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3342237 Another 'what has happened to 3.5?' 6/6/13
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3033685 Another 'where is Ralph?' during 3.5 development 2/9/12
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2893316 More 'what has happened to 3.5?' 8/26/11
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2818040 News from Ralph about progress of 3.5 and a podcast 5/20/11

Now when someone tells us to be PATIENT it would appear that they don't think anyone has been. But for those of us that have been waiting for this for several years that falls flat. Because patient is all we can be when the history of this is looked at. If I had started high school when this started I would at least be a sophomore in college by now.

I can't find the first post concerning 3.5 and I can't recall when it was started but when you talk about TOAW4 and it's dev time you have to also add in the time for 3.5 because it is the same thing. I realize you must not have been around for all of this otherwise you would have known that what you replied was incorrect. Yeah there has been some moaning but it's taking forever.

BTW: Let me be perfectly clear about one thing. Ralph is a good guy. Bad things happen to good people. Things that will interrupt people's lives in ways unforeseen. Ralph has put in a lot of his own time on this and everyone should appreciate that. In fact everyone who has spent their own time making this patch/release a success should be appreciated. Time is a non renewable resource. You can't buy time. You can't save time. You can't make time. But you can most certainly spend time. So, thanks guys for taking the time to do this update. But it's just taking so long.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 9/16/2016 5:47:05 PM >

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RE: ETA? - 9/19/2016 9:34:18 AM

berto

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

It's all in C++ (at least all I've dealt with). But he didn't use MFC. [emphasis added]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

That's funny because I commented one time in the TOAW forums that I was told the code was like a plate of spaghetti. All mixed up. But Ralph replied that Norm was a fine programmer and the code was well written. So which is it? I would have to believe Ralph since he's been working on it before Noah had the ark finished.

Oh, I would agree that it's well written (except for that comment thing [emphasis added]). It's certainly not classical "spaghetti code", except that it's so structured that you have to expect to peal back multiple layers to get to what you want when you're looking for something. I would have preferred he had used MFC, but it might not have been around yet when he was coding it. No point in adding it now (if that would even be possible).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

quote:

ORIGINAL: BradK82

I may be wrong but reading between the lines it seems what I am hearing is that there just can't be much more streched out of this code as it exist. It may require some major overhauling precipitating a delay.

Oh, you can stretch anything you want out of it - it's just harder to do than if it already had MFC. We have to build everything from scratch [emphasis added], whereas MFC would let us just plug in already built-in components. For example, Ralph had to make the scroll bars from scratch - and then spend ages perfecting them. But, once we get the UI finished, that will all be behind us. Game Mechanics are "under the hood" and independent of graphics (usually).

For sure, there will be no delay for any such "major overhaul".

Those nuggets of information speak volumes, explain so much. No wonder it's slow going.

Good luck, guys. [Truly. No sarcasm intended, or implied.]

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Post #: 130

RE: ETA? - 9/19/2016 11:20:36 AM

BradK82

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Lobster, also to be fair I would like to point out that second comment you ran in to look like it was my quote did not come from me. Otherwise solid rant. I first bought TOAW from a little software store at Arizona Mills in 1999. Aww such great memories. Got married that year, almost divorced the next year because of TOAW So yeah I have seen a few iterations including Modern Battles and ACOW.

< Message edited by BradK82 -- 9/19/2016 5:53:16 PM >

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Post #: 131

RE: ETA? - 9/20/2016 1:02:10 PM

Lobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BradK82

Lobster, also to be fair I would like to point out that second comment you ran in to look like it was my quote did not come from me. Otherwise solid rant. I first bought TOAW from a little software store at Arizona Mills in 1999. Aww such great memories. Got married that year, almost divorced the next year because of TOAW So yeah I have seen a few iterations including Modern Battles and ACOW.

Uhm...which one would that be? The forum does a fine job of neatly boxing quoted messages and attaching the original author's name.

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Post #: 132

RE: ETA? - 9/20/2016 6:24:20 PM

BradK82

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Never mind

< Message edited by BradK82 -- 9/20/2016 6:35:50 PM >

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Post #: 133

RE: ETA? - 9/22/2016 4:50:46 AM

Lobster

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Miracles do happen. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3861262&mpage=3&key=�

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Post #: 134

RE: ETA? - 9/26/2016 2:23:09 AM

Meyer1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Miracles do happen. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3861262&mpage=3&key=�

So, I guess they didn't spend the last six years improving the graphics.

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Post #: 135

RE: ETA? - 9/26/2016 11:10:22 PM

TDefender

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Meyer1

So, I guess they didn't spend the last six years improving the graphics.

You make my day

But actually there's nothing to be much happy...

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Post #: 136

RE: ETA? - 9/29/2016 6:08:33 PM

solops

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So, is there an ETA? I have to admit that I have owned every version of TOAW that has ever been published. I have spent more time making silly mods for it than any other game. And no they are far to silly to share...such as what if the Hungarians in Barbarossa had been equipped with M-1 Abrams and Bradley APCs. Anyway, back to the point, I look forward to TOAW4 more than any other game in a decade. Knowing some sort of timeframe could save me hundreds of dollars that I might otherwise waste on other games while waiting on TOAW4. So please, help my wife, who pays the bills, and my children, who need money for college, and give me a time frame of perhaps a 6 month window. And I totally understand that this is only an estimate and could be off by 12 or more months. This is really serious. I mean, should I get that other new game or two extra boxes of ammo or a new calculator for my kid or an anniversary present? Real world decisions are in the balance and YOU are critical component. I am certainly not going to take the hit alone if my wife does not get roses at the appropriate time!

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Post #: 137

RE: ETA? - 9/29/2016 6:40:46 PM

larryfulkerson

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quote:

So, is there an ETA?

If there is an ETA the beta team isn't being let in on the secret either. There is so much misery in the world and there's so much
injustice and we are forced to pick from two of the worst nominees in the history of the world and on top of that the ETA is a secret.

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Post #: 138

RE: ETA? - 9/29/2016 8:28:35 PM

Catch21

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It's not a secret, there just isn't one.

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Post #: 139

RE: ETA? - 10/2/2016 9:15:24 AM

fogger

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I have no idea when TOAW 4 will be released. Even if I did know my NDA would prevent me from saying anything.

There were 13 updates in July, 8 in August and 9 in September. So things are moving. However Christmas is approx 11 weeks away, so when one considers the lead time to produce and market a game, I think it save to assume that it will not be released for this Christmas.

As for your wife and kids, my philosophy to life is to look after the people who will be crying at YOUR funeral and picking your old people / retirement home.

< Message edited by fogger -- 10/2/2016 9:07:01 PM >

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RE: ETA? - 10/2/2016 10:31:00 AM

Catch21

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Yes, but:

1) Can you please define update? Saying something has been done? Seeing something has been done? And a piece of GUI eye candy added to make it seem like major progress or some fundamental change to the game engine, like expanded air and naval support?

2) Funeral? Whose? Yours or that of TOAW? And talking of retirement homes in the context of TOAW development, maybe we should all start looking...

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Post #: 141

RE: ETA? - 10/2/2016 8:04:18 PM

Lobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fogger

so when one considers the lead time to produce and market a game

What? What did you just say? Lead time? This game was released in 1998. 18 years ago. All that's being done it adding some graphics, updating the UI and a few other bits and pieces. All of the 'lead time' happened almost two decades ago. This glorified patch has taken, at the minimum, five years. An entirely new game can be cranked out in that time. Especially one without the gee whiz graphics we see today. So please, don't compare this project to a new game. It's not and we all know that.

Now please get busy and crank this thing out by Christmas. It's been long past due.

BTW: 3.1 released June 2006, 3.2 released September 2007, 3.4 released February 2011, 3.4 final released July 2015. I don't recall when TOAW III was initially released. We are way past the longest development period of past patches. Maybe it's because the code is getting harder and harder to work with as it's stretched more. The only one who would know is no longer communicating. Oh, and much of the 'final' 3.4 patch was actually the 3.5 patch.

During any of the previous times patches were being made did any work in progress screen shots get posted? I seem to remember some 3.4 shots.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 10/2/2016 8:22:18 PM >

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Post #: 142

RE: ETA? - 10/2/2016 8:31:39 PM

Lobster

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Well by golly. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1093178

I know that there are some things like graphics for the map and counters completed. It would be nice to see them. Like we go for 3.4.

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Post #: 143

RE: ETA? - 10/2/2016 8:50:51 PM

Catch21

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
The only one who would know is no longer communicating. Oh, and much of the 'final' 3.4 patch was actually the 3.5 patch.

Yes, but it's his now, and he has the rights to it. And he can do what he likes with it, no matter (apparently) how long it takes. There's shades of Gollum's my precious (of LOTR) in this, maybe TOAW just eventually breaks people.

I don't think Matrix even has the source code any more, or if they did they'd surely have taken action on this by now.

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Post #: 144

RE: ETA? - 10/2/2016 9:24:05 PM

fogger

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I have signed a NDA so sorry I am unable to show or say anything more.

Typo. It should have been "your" funeral.

To produce I meant production. Making the cd / dvd, printing the rule book & box in several languages. Advertising the product and shipping to a warehouse and then from the warehouse to the retail stores in the US & UK and around the world after the orders have come in.

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Post #: 145

RE: ETA? - 10/3/2016 8:25:44 PM

larryfulkerson

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I'm curious. Does anybody ever take a look at this forum anymore?

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Post #: 146

RE: ETA? - 10/3/2016 8:33:52 PM

zakblood

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only Monday to Sundays, so 7 days, on the 8th i rest

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Post #: 147

RE: ETA? - 10/3/2016 8:40:36 PM

larryfulkerson

Posts: 39932
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Good to know it's still getting some traffic

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Post #: 148

RE: ETA? - 10/3/2016 9:34:50 PM

Catch21

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fogger

To produce I meant production. Making the cd / dvd, printing the rule book & box in several languages. Advertising the product and shipping to a warehouse and then from the warehouse to the retail stores in the US & UK and around the world after the orders have come in.

In this day and age it's a digital download for Christ's sake...

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Post #: 149

RE: ETA? - 10/3/2016 9:40:00 PM

larryfulkerson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: General Staff

quote:

ORIGINAL: fogger
To produce I meant production. Making the cd / dvd, printing the rule book & box in several languages. Advertising the product and shipping to a warehouse and then from the warehouse to the retail stores in the US & UK and around the world after the orders have come in.

In this day and age it's a digital download for Christ's sake...

I agree. For Christ's sake.........

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Post #: 150