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RE: Japan Questions - 10/12/2016 2:06:58 AM   
geofflambert


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I'm going to wait for others to answer you. My understanding is that R&D factories contribute regardless of their level toward the eventual production of the plane save building the appropriate engines. I've never seen anything to the contrary before now.

(in reply to Anthropoid)
Post #: 91
RE: Japan Questions - 10/12/2016 3:16:53 AM   
InfiniteMonkey

 

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I have spent a lot of time researching and testing the WitP:AE game engine since I got AE a few months ago. Each time something doesn't happen the way I expect, I find that "common knowledge" is wrong. I read something about how limited the ability to advance arrival dates using research was. I wanted to see how far I could advance the A6M8 and whether the research system had diminishing returns. I fired up the scenario editor and played around with R&D factories and ran a BUNCH of turns as I tinkered with the scenario to test various aspects of research. Then I modified the scenario again and ran a bunch more. I guess what I am saying is this: I'm not just claiming what I think. I've tested this.

My next series of tests is likely to be on the patrol system. Why? I spent a lot of time monkeying around with search arcs down around Singapore. As I changed my first turn and tested to see how different sets of orders resolved differently when the turn was run I discovered something. Despite having more planes searching a smaller area of the map, I failed to detect Force Z out of Singapore and rarely detected Allied subs. I had moved on to testing out other plans by then, but after running dozens of turns fine tuning how to give orders to my troops, the constant failure to attack Force Z finally got to me. I double checked my air groups in Saigon, the search arcs, the escort altitude groupings, etc. and kept working on my orders for other areas. Implement the next part of the plan, Save, run the turn, hrmmm.. no force Z attack again. Rinse and repeat innumerable times as I gave orders in China, at Truk, etc. Finally, I went back to The force Z question.

WTF was up? I made ONE change. I eliminated arcs from the search arcs for the Saigon Nettys and let the turn fly. Force Z detected and sunk. Run a bunch more turns... Nettys detect and attack Force Z virtually every turn. WTF? I had been searching the whole of the Gulf of Siam from Bangkok to Singapore to Singkawang to Miri to Saigon with dozens of search planes. I then played around with search arcs for the Netty's again. Force Z disappeared. I've come to the conclusion that search arcs, while THEY DO WORK AT SHORTER RANGES, DO NOT SEARCH AS EFFECTIVELY AS RANDOM ARCS AT LONG RANGE. One day, I will do exhaustive tests for detection percentages based upon various parameters, but for now, I have far too much evidence that something is wrong.

I posted about it in the Support forum and was basically told - you are doing something wrong, they work. They do work, but not as well as random arcs. The reasonable assumption is that by setting arcs your detection probability was going to be higher in the designated search arcs than the probability in any given hex in range using random arcs. The probability of detecting task forces with limited arcs is LESS than the probability when using random arcs - and this is magnified at extreme ranges. I saw the same thing when I set H6K4's and Nells at Roi-Namur and Maloelap to arcs. The USN CV's that raid the Marshalls are virtually undetectable when I set all the patrols to arcs, but show up at long range when I do not use arcs.

Anyway, my point is this: Trust the people that put in the work testing the game, not the guys that tell you how it is supposed to work.


< Message edited by InfiniteMonkey -- 10/12/2016 3:21:50 AM >

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 92
RE: Japan Questions - 10/12/2016 7:35:00 AM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
I dislike Oscars. If you're playing PDU On, I don't see a reason to ever use them once you have the Tojo.

Yes, they drop if a pebble is thrown their way, but ain't no other one with that range in IJA. You still want your bombers escorted while you use them, and you do not want to spend IJN fighter pilots as escort fodder



Frank can go 11 hexes with DTs. That's good enough for me. Maybe I'm bad, but I'd rather have decent escorts that crappy ones that just get the bombers killed anyway because the escorts fold so quickly and can't shoot down any CAP with their peashooters.

I tried the Oscar-IV for a while, but it's just not good enough. And with the summer 1944 IJNAF apocalypse, my reserve pools are about to be extremely flush with good pilots. I'm willing to trade them for getting some torpedo hits, but the IJNAF fighters can only go out to 10-12 hexes also... the Tony goes to 10. Tony and Frank are doing my heavy lifting and I don't see why I'd ever do it any other way. Until the Ki-83 comes online, anyway.

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 93
RE: Japan Questions - 10/12/2016 7:39:29 AM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

I have spent a lot of time researching and testing the WitP:AE game engine since I got AE a few months ago. Each time something doesn't happen the way I expect, I find that "common knowledge" is wrong. I read something about how limited the ability to advance arrival dates using research was. I wanted to see how far I could advance the A6M8 and whether the research system had diminishing returns. I fired up the scenario editor and played around with R&D factories and ran a BUNCH of turns as I tinkered with the scenario to test various aspects of research. Then I modified the scenario again and ran a bunch more. I guess what I am saying is this: I'm not just claiming what I think. I've tested this.



I don't know who told you that or where, but they were wrong, and no - it wasn't common knowledge.

(in reply to InfiniteMonkey)
Post #: 94
RE: Japan Questions - 10/12/2016 8:06:34 AM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey
1. You may have heard that the optimal size for an R&D factory is 30. This is because you only get one extra research point from engines PER FACTORY. It is therefore better to have 2 x 30 research factories than to have 1 x 60.

2. The optimal size of the research factory is related to the time til the aircraft arrives. Contrary to popular belief, building every research factory to size 30 IS NOT OPTIMAL FOR ALL SITUATIONS! For an aircraft like the Ki-84 Ia Frank (a JFB favorite for research), DO NOT TRY TO BUILD UP TO a 30 size research factory. In fact, I recommend changing the 0x (56) Frank factory at start to SOMETHING ELSE. Remember: Factories only contribute toward research progress when they are fully repaired. That 0x(56) factory will not repair fully (and will therefore contribute nothing to research) for YEARS. With a 3/44 arrival date, you have about a 1 in 27 chance to repair each day. If each repair takes the expected time to repair, the factory will begin contributing to the research of the Ki-84 sometime around Halloween day in 1943………….. Only 6 months before it is due to arrive anyway. The optimal way to accelerate planes like the Frank is to research with MANY factories til you have approximately 100 production repaired. You increment the size of factories ONLY when they are fully repaired and only by 1. Over time, some factories will repair more than others. Keep the big ones and reassign the smaller ones. Let's say I research with 20 factories until I have 100 fully repaired production units. Each month, with those in operation I get 100 research points and accelerate the Frank by one month. How long will it take me to begin accelerating the Frank? Around mid-April 1942, I will begin accelerating the Frank at a rate of about 1 month per month. I will get the Frank starting around 3/43 instead of 3/44.



1. 30 is the optimal size - for R&D. Many of my factories have also remained at 30 simply because it's easier that way and I don't want to produce too many planes, but it depends on the model. Size 30 is optimal because it is the smallest expenditure of supply to get there and you will only get 1 point of research no matter the size of the factory (barring engine bonus).

2. Your initial impressions are not wrong, however there is more nuance in these decisions. For example, changing that 0(55) Frank-a factory is going to waste a bunch of your supply. Why would you ever do that? Apparently you run a bunch of turns to test things. Run a bunch of turns and watch the 0(55) Frank factory and compare to a 0(30) Frank factory. They will repair at the same proportional rate - e.g., over many runs of the game (not many turns, many games) they will be fully repaired at the roughly same time. This is because of the algorithm for repairing factories. Now, you're going to want a lot of Franks. Why would you get rid of a size 55 Frank factory for something else? You should set Frank R&D at the start - its standard arrival date is early enough that the factories will begin to repair immediately, albeit slowly at first.

If you change that Frank factory, you're burning many thousands of supplies that you don't need to burn.

By the by, my Frank-a arrived in 6/43 and I converted 5 of my factories to Frank-r at some point during the R&D process, before Frank-a arrived. I used 7 factories, which is fewer than many JFBs on this forum use for that plane. My Frank-r then arrived in 12/43. I didn't even get the Ki-100-I until 7/43, and I did the move-through-the-line thing on it that you bring up later in your post.

Finally, smaller factories do repair slower than bigger ones. A 0(2) Frank factory is going to repair 1 point so much slower than 0(30) that the factory starting at 0(30) will have more than 2 points repaired before the 0(2) is repaired and you can do as you recommend, incrementing the factory up by 1. And then that factory that started at 0(30) is going to repair more than 1 point before that 2(1) factory repairs to 3(0), and so on. You can do it that way if you want to, but it's not going to work out very well for you. I did a few googles to find some threads, but sanderz's post #5 here is roughly correct:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3754188

(in reply to InfiniteMonkey)
Post #: 95
RE: Japan Questions - 10/12/2016 11:55:54 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

3. You can accelerate late models of some air frames very easily.
a. Research the A6M2-N Rufe at 5 factories of size 30.
b. Build the A6M8's engine pool up to 500. (it uses the Ha33)
c. As each Rufe research factory gets fully built, switch it to A6M8. You must convert the factory one step at a time: A6M2-N to A6M5, A6M5 to A6M5b, A6M5b to A6M5c, A6M5c to A6M8. Notice that upgrading along the aircraft's upgrade path does not cause the factory to be damaged and it stays FULLY REPAIRED.
d. Plan on flying the A6M8 starting in late 42 instead of 8/45. Yes, this really works.


Wow, I'm aware of this little 'charm', but I had forgotten about it as I refuse to use it, and I've only played as Japan. I have no idea why the devs left the Rufe in a development line like this, but they did. In addition you do understand that you must wait for each A/C to reach production before going to the next one. I know that the game will let you just make the jump (or I believe it will), but most players realize that doing so is not 'cricket'. IOW house rule. 'All A/C must reach production before the next in the line may be researched.' Do people understand why I want so many in my game (HR's), its to avoid situations like this. The last thing I need to see is an M8 Zero in late '42, its a deal breaker and I've wasted ~1 year of my life to get there, game over.

quote:

e. A similar plan works with the Ki-61Ia to Ki-61 Ib to Ki-61 Id to Ki 61-II KAI to Ki-100-Ia


This is another A/C line I have issues with, although in this case they are for historical/personal reasons. The Ki-100 was not technically a research line of the Ki-61. Japan had been given the plans for the Daimler DB-60x (whatever) to build on license. They apparently decided to fiddle with it or whatever, and they got it wrong. They spent a lot of time and effort trying to get it right, but never succeeded. In the mean time they had built a number of fuselages for the Ki-61. The Ki-100 was simply a marriage of that fuselage to a radial engine. Now to be honest I don't recall how the line works in the game, but if I had my choice I would make it work whichever way is less advantageous to the IJ player. Again this is just for personal/historical reasons, and i'd have to look into it and come to some sort of agreement with my opponent. TBH I don't even want an all historical game, but I feel there should be some limits on what the Japanese player may/may not do. That's just me.

Now I don't mean to be harsh and you can play anyway you and your opponent choose to, as long as you let him/her understand that this is what you will do, and he/she agrees.

At any rate the above is JMHO. YMMV.

< Message edited by rustysi -- 10/13/2016 4:07:28 AM >


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Anthropoid)
Post #: 96
RE: Japan Questions - 10/13/2016 12:06:43 AM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I read your thing very fast and could probably read it again more carefully, but there seems to be a misconception that R&D factories contribute nothing until they are "fully" repaired. The repair format is just a simplification, they aren't being repaired at all, they're being built from scratch (if they start at 0) Anyway, factories at value "1" do contribute. If a factory is set to R&D Franks, by all means let it do so. I can't imagine a justification for not doing so. You might consider converting another R&D factory or two to Franks.


There's no misconception here, they must be fully repaired before they may contribute to R&D advancement. Were you sleeping during that lesson gorn?


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 97
RE: Japan Questions - 10/13/2016 1:39:13 AM   
Alpha77

 

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rustysi, I noted this with the Rufe too, seems a bit strange getting the M5 from the Rufe (but guess the devs had a reason for this). Anyway you cant update your M2 facs to the M5 anyway and need to spend supply and time to do so. Is it not also strange the M2 would not update, ie only to a late war fighter bomber. But guess also there is reason for it when the devs made it so and it stayed in the game up to today Also when you said SAM in 42 that is totally impossible because their is NO research line for the SAM (only 2 models in late 45). And the M8 Zero is kind of the same issue as the Ki100 below, it is not really that good (slow) on paper at least...

I see not much issue with the Ki100 thing, because the airframe WAS a developement from KI61 line (not the engine). Also the Ki100 isnt that good in stock anyway (quite slow). Also this is alternate history right ? Just like "war in russia" (who would not produce panthers instead of Pz4 or Me262 instead of He111 if he is able to do so for a reasonable price). Just imagine there were some guys in the factory who saw that the Ki61/DB engine leads to nothing in 43. And propose the change of engine a bit earlier than in reality.

PS: Seems a Rufe pilot had a harder job then usual :



< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 10/13/2016 2:06:32 AM >

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 98
RE: Japan Questions - 10/13/2016 1:46:15 AM   
MakeeLearn


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Fighting as Japan makes learning the Krebs Cycle look easy.

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 99
RE: Japan Questions - 10/13/2016 3:38:45 AM   
rustysi


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quote:

Also when you said SAM in 42 that is totally impossible because their is NO research line


Your correct there I meant the M8 Zero. I've made the correction to my post above with an edit.

quote:

Anyway you cant update your M2 facs to the M5 anyway and need to spend supply and time to do so. Is it not also strange the M2 would not update, ie only to a late war fighter bomber.


You're correct here also, but you can research the M3 from day one. This leads to the rest of the Zero progression, although it takes longer. That's exactly my point though, Japan should not have '45 A/C in '42. The whole R&D thing is really a sop to Japan in order to get JFB's to play the side, let's not abuse the privileged by shooting for the Moon. So '45 A/C in late '43 early '44 will still keep Japan competitive long enough to keep his/her interest in the game, and hopefully playing to the bitter end so that AFB's can have their joy too.

quote:

Just imagine there were some guys in the factory who saw that the Ki61/DB engine leads to nothing in 43. And propose the change of engine a bit earlier than in reality.


OK, I'll bite.

< Message edited by rustysi -- 10/13/2016 4:08:31 AM >


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 100
RE: Japan Questions - 10/13/2016 3:48:51 AM   
rustysi


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From: LI, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

Fighting as Japan makes learning the Krebs Cycle look easy.


Been working at the Japanese economy for ~3 years and I think I'm finally satisfied with how I have it. Don't get me wrong I don't play multiple turns a day and there's been a whole lot of experimentation. Many, many restarts. Longest game to date was to Dec. '42. Current game I'm still in Dec. '41, but I think its a real keeper.

I also used a 'system' that I would only recommend for myself, as its rather lengthy. I concentrated on only one facet of the game at a time. Such as, do nothing but game mechanics. Next, game mechanics plus get all resources/oil/fuel to where it needs to be, etc. Its been a challenge and a joy.


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 101
RE: Japan Questions - 10/13/2016 4:03:55 AM   
rustysi


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quote:

And the M8 Zero is kind of the same issue as the Ki100 below, it is not really that good (slow) on paper at least...


Also correct, but at least when it comes to carrier A/C they're all usually slower no matter what nation they represent. Comes from the nature of the beast, landing on a carrier is little more than a controlled crash. They need to be beefier to sustain this and the added weight usually means less speed.

On a different note and to add what I stated above, for Japan to get the M8 in late '42 is absurd as the U.S. will not have the F6F 'til mid '43. I highly doubt Japan had the capacity to advance quicker under wartime conditions than the U.S. For that matter IRL she didn't even have the capacity to keep abreast, but the game kinda lets her do it for 'play balance'. I have no real problem with that because the alternative would be no opponents. Ever play a game called 'France 1940'. Ever play it again.

P.S. I have 'France 1940', and no I never played it again.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 102
RE: Japan Questions - 10/13/2016 6:07:26 AM   
PaxMondo


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Mmm, the M8 is still an A6M ... it isn't anything like an F6F ... nor is it like the progression of the F4F to the F6F. Some JFB's may get all hot and sweaty about it, but I don't. The A6M line is just not competitive after 12/42. So spending effort to get any after the A6M3a is just kinda funny to me. Sure the M5 gets armor, but I don't have any pilot shortages after about 4/42 and the M5 is still easy meat to any 2nd gen allied fighter (early corsair, F6F, etc.). do you build them as IJ? Sure, what else is there. but is it in any way a game changer? hardly.

A7M is what you need and no matter what you do, getting that plane any time in '43 is very tough to do. Now a good question is could they have? My opinion is yes, but they clearly did not and for some specific reasons. It all revolved around the engine, specifically the induction. They could not get the 2 stage blower to work and they wasted 3 years on it ... a very bad case of NIH. They easily could have obtained what they needed from an Axis partner, but chose not to. Bad choice IMHO. Did it change the outcome of the war? No. But they also failed to provide the best possible armament to their pilots ... and i do have an issue with that ... but that's another conversation.

But as to the Oscar/Zero upgrades; PFFT. P___ing in the wind. They wasted an incredible amount of resource upgrading those planes as they couldn't get a better engine for 3 years. All their new designs were too big/heavy for the Ha-35 so they couldn't move them into production until the new Ha-4x series were available ... and the Ha-35 was underpowered in 1939 ... by '42 it should have been retired, instead it was the primary engine for 3 more years of war. Don't get me wrong, the Zero design was amazing ... but if the IJ had had engines similar to the allies ... well if wishes were horses, beggars would ride as my grandma always said.

EDIT: Corrected F6F ...

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 10/15/2016 4:49:21 AM >


_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 103
RE: Japan Questions - 10/13/2016 7:27:41 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

This is another A/C line I have issues with, although in this case they are for historical/personal reasons. The Ki-100 was not technically a research line of the Ki-61. Japan had been given the plans for the Daimler DB-60x (whatever) to build on license. They apparently decided to fiddle with it or whatever, and they got it wrong. They spent a lot of time and effort trying to get it right, but never succeeded. In the mean time they had built a number of fuselages for the Ki-61. The Ki-100 was simply a marriage of that fuselage to a radial engine.

I have read a different story. The Ki-100 was a re-engined Ki-61 and the reason was a shortage of inline engines after US air raids had damaged the engine factory. So they had 200+ freshly produced Ki-61 airframes sitting around but no more inline engines coming out of the factory. Some bright guy decided to mate a radial engine which was available with the available airframes and voilà, the Ki-100 was born. It proved to be a successful plane so the "re-engined airframes design" got refined into the Ki-100II design with freshly produced airframes. In this light, the research line in the game seems ok to me.

I agree that going to the M8 via Rufe shortcut without researching the entire Zero tree is cheesy. but I don't understand the 'break' between M2 and M3 - they are not that different than a Ki-61 from a Ki-100, no? Well, there is the editor to link M2 to M3 and to make the Rufe a dead end.

_____________________________


(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 104
RE: Japan Questions - 10/13/2016 11:08:51 AM   
Alpha77

 

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Seems many Japanese pilots agree with our views. Eg. I posted a pilot interview a while back here, who said the Oscar was a disaster. Now people come and say that is only a single guy saying that but in general pilots wanted these planes as they were cause they wanted manouvre above all other aspects. However I watched some more interviews and turns out also the Zero gets flak from ex-pilots. One of them said it was no combat machine but good for airshows. He took the example of George as being finally a combat ready plane One told a story they would not take parachutes with them even on long flights from Rabaul to Guadalcanal cause of the warrior spirit and weight. He said this was incredible stupid as they lost many good pilots also to exhaustation and tiredness. Some pilots that fought for day after day and than make such long flights would simply fall asleep and the plane plunges in the ocean...again with the rotation of pilots system the Allies were also much better in this regard. But this is modelled in game if you abuse your pilots and planes like they did in reality you will also lose them to ops and fatigue...

Mind you others did not share the view of above about Zero, they thought it was phantastic even wit the flaws. But if ex-"aces" are so outspoken saying a plane for airshows yes very good...but not so much for hard combat that says something right The best feature of Zero seemed to be the handling and easy fast responding controls.

Allied pilots had much less complaints but they won in the end.

Yes I agree that IJ should not be able to get 45 planes in 43....this might be possible but than you need to invest a lot of effort in only 1 or 2 models. There is an AAR were someone tried to get the jet planes much earlier - but it did not work out.

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 10/13/2016 11:19:01 AM >

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 105
RE: Japan Questions - 10/13/2016 11:34:10 AM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

I have read a different story. The Ki-100 was a re-engined Ki-61 and the reason was a shortage of inline engines after US air raids had damaged the engine factory. So they had 200+ freshly produced Ki-61 airframes sitting around but no more inline engines coming out of the factory. Some bright guy decided to mate a radial engine which was available with the available airframes and voilà, the Ki-100 was born. It proved to be a successful plane so the "re-engined airframes design" got refined into the Ki-100II design with freshly produced airframes. In this light, the research line in the game seems ok to me.



Another reason not named was shortage of precission machinery to manufacture DB engines. Or inline engines in general they had no experience with building and maintaining them.

Read here for that:
https://books.google.de/books?id=-X1_AgAAQBAJ&pg=PT135&lpg=PT135&dq=shortage+of+precision+machinery+japan&source=bl&ots=Wt9VeTRtBZ&sig=A9JdPcvOkzdExybgqptut9BGHHU&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjC1oT9yNfPAhVDsxQKHZwEDMkQ6AEIHzAA#v=onepage&q=shortage%20of%20precision%20machinery%20japan&f=false

(US put an embargo on machinery, some were imported from Germany, but when Russo-German war started Germany stopped export they needed every machine themselves now)

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 106
RE: Japan Questions - 10/13/2016 12:44:21 PM   
MakeeLearn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

Fighting as Japan makes learning the Krebs Cycle look easy.


Been working at the Japanese economy for ~3 years and I think I'm finally satisfied with how I have it. Don't get me wrong I don't play multiple turns a day and there's been a whole lot of experimentation. Many, many restarts. Longest game to date was to Dec. '42. Current game I'm still in Dec. '41, but I think its a real keeper.

I also used a 'system' that I would only recommend for myself, as its rather lengthy. I concentrated on only one facet of the game at a time. Such as, do nothing but game mechanics. Next, game mechanics plus get all resources/oil/fuel to where it needs to be, etc. Its been a challenge and a joy.



It's more fun than the Krebs Cycle. Different creative paths to take in the "what if's". I wanted to start off as Japan, then decided to start as the Allies in order to get a handle on the overall game. Does look like a joyful challenge

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 107
RE: Japan Questions - 10/13/2016 5:54:51 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Mmm, the M8 is still an A6M ... it isn't anything like an F7F ... nor is it like the progression of the F4F to the F7F. Some JFB's may get all hot and sweaty about it, but I don't. The A6M line is just not competitive after 12/42. So spending effort to get any after the A6M3a is just kinda funny to me. Sure the M5 gets armor, but I don't have any pilot shortages after about 4/42 and the M5 is still easy meat to any 2nd gen allied fighter (early corsair, F7F, etc.). do you build them as IJ? Sure, what else is there. but is it in any way a game changer? hardly.

A7M is what you need and no matter what you do, getting that plane any time in '43 is very tough to do. Now a good question is could they have? My opinion is yes, but they clearly did not and for some specific reasons. It all revolved around the engine, specifically the induction. They could not get the 2 stage blower to work and they wasted 3 years on it ... a very bad case of NIH. They easily could have obtained what they needed from an Axis partner, but chose not to. Bad choice IMHO. Did it change the outcome of the war? No. But they also failed to provide the best possible armament to their pilots ... and i do have an issue with that ... but that's another conversation.

But as to the Oscar/Zero upgrades; PFFT. P___ing in the wind. They wasted an incredible amount of resource upgrading those planes as they couldn't get a better engine for 3 years. All their new designs were too big/heavy for the Ha-35 so they couldn't move them into production until the new Ha-4x series were available ... and the Ha-35 was underpowered in 1939 ... by '42 it should have been retired, instead it was the primary engine for 3 more years of war. Don't get me wrong, the Zero design was amazing ... but if the IJ had had engines similar to the allies ... well if wishes were horses, beggars would ride as my grandma always said.



F7F? Can't tell if you mean F6F or F8F.

THe A6M8 is roughly comparable to the F6F IMO. It's no Corsair, but the Corsair doesn't arrive in good enough numbers to sustain naval operations until 9/44.

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Post #: 108
RE: Japan Questions - 10/13/2016 10:04:42 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

I have read a different story. The Ki-100 was a re-engined Ki-61 and the reason was a shortage of inline engines after US air raids had damaged the engine factory.


Don't doubt it, but Japan had problems with the engine from day one. They really had no experience with liquid cooled in line engines, and they muffed their one and only try.

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Post #: 109
RE: Japan Questions - 10/15/2016 1:45:55 AM   
InfiniteMonkey

 

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Yup, your right. I wish I had seen those threads before I did my own research. Not sure how I missed them. Thanks for pointing them out.

Changes a few things, or makes some approaches less beneficial...

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Post #: 110
RE: Japan Questions - 10/15/2016 2:00:54 AM   
InfiniteMonkey

 

Posts: 355
Joined: 9/16/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

3. You can accelerate late models of some air frames very easily.
a. Research the A6M2-N Rufe at 5 factories of size 30.
b. Build the A6M8's engine pool up to 500. (it uses the Ha33)
c. As each Rufe research factory gets fully built, switch it to A6M8. You must convert the factory one step at a time: A6M2-N to A6M5, A6M5 to A6M5b, A6M5b to A6M5c, A6M5c to A6M8. Notice that upgrading along the aircraft's upgrade path does not cause the factory to be damaged and it stays FULLY REPAIRED.
d. Plan on flying the A6M8 starting in late 42 instead of 8/45. Yes, this really works.


Wow, I'm aware of this little 'charm', but I had forgotten about it as I refuse to use it, and I've only played as Japan. I have no idea why the devs left the Rufe in a development line like this, but they did. In addition you do understand that you must wait for each A/C to reach production before going to the next one. I know that the game will let you just make the jump (or I believe it will), but most players realize that doing so is not 'cricket'. IOW house rule. 'All A/C must reach production before the next in the line may be researched.' Do people understand why I want so many in my game (HR's), its to avoid situations like this. The last thing I need to see is an M8 Zero in late '42, its a deal breaker and I've wasted ~1 year of my life to get there, game over.

quote:

e. A similar plan works with the Ki-61Ia to Ki-61 Ib to Ki-61 Id to Ki 61-II KAI to Ki-100-Ia


This is another A/C line I have issues with, although in this case they are for historical/personal reasons. The Ki-100 was not technically a research line of the Ki-61. Japan had been given the plans for the Daimler DB-60x (whatever) to build on license. They apparently decided to fiddle with it or whatever, and they got it wrong. They spent a lot of time and effort trying to get it right, but never succeeded. In the mean time they had built a number of fuselages for the Ki-61. The Ki-100 was simply a marriage of that fuselage to a radial engine. Now to be honest I don't recall how the line works in the game, but if I had my choice I would make it work whichever way is less advantageous to the IJ player. Again this is just for personal/historical reasons, and i'd have to look into it and come to some sort of agreement with my opponent. TBH I don't even want an all historical game, but I feel there should be some limits on what the Japanese player may/may not do. That's just me.

Now I don't mean to be harsh and you can play anyway you and your opponent choose to, as long as you let him/her understand that this is what you will do, and he/she agrees.

At any rate the above is JMHO. YMMV.

By that logic, Allies should not get P51's and should be stuck permanently with A36 Apaches. Trying out new engines happens a lot when you look at the history of development of various WW2 aircraft. One main difference between the B5N1 and B5N2 is the engine. The A6M was originally designed with the Nakajima Zuisei 13 engine instead of the Mitsubishi Sakae 12. Re-engining an airframe to get better results is no great leap of imagination and there are numerous precedents to mention.

I'm not sure why you find it so gamey or unrealistic.

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 111
RE: Japan Questions - 10/15/2016 3:28:45 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I read your thing very fast and could probably read it again more carefully, but there seems to be a misconception that R&D factories contribute nothing until they are "fully" repaired. The repair format is just a simplification, they aren't being repaired at all, they're being built from scratch (if they start at 0) Anyway, factories at value "1" do contribute. If a factory is set to R&D Franks, by all means let it do so. I can't imagine a justification for not doing so. You might consider converting another R&D factory or two to Franks.


There's no misconception here, they must be fully repaired before they may contribute to R&D advancement. Were you sleeping during that lesson gorn?



hibernating maybe.

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 112
RE: Japan Questions - 10/15/2016 4:47:39 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Mmm, the M8 is still an A6M ... it isn't anything like an F7F ... nor is it like the progression of the F4F to the F7F. Some JFB's may get all hot and sweaty about it, but I don't. The A6M line is just not competitive after 12/42. So spending effort to get any after the A6M3a is just kinda funny to me. Sure the M5 gets armor, but I don't have any pilot shortages after about 4/42 and the M5 is still easy meat to any 2nd gen allied fighter (early corsair, F7F, etc.). do you build them as IJ? Sure, what else is there. but is it in any way a game changer? hardly.

A7M is what you need and no matter what you do, getting that plane any time in '43 is very tough to do. Now a good question is could they have? My opinion is yes, but they clearly did not and for some specific reasons. It all revolved around the engine, specifically the induction. They could not get the 2 stage blower to work and they wasted 3 years on it ... a very bad case of NIH. They easily could have obtained what they needed from an Axis partner, but chose not to. Bad choice IMHO. Did it change the outcome of the war? No. But they also failed to provide the best possible armament to their pilots ... and i do have an issue with that ... but that's another conversation.

But as to the Oscar/Zero upgrades; PFFT. P___ing in the wind. They wasted an incredible amount of resource upgrading those planes as they couldn't get a better engine for 3 years. All their new designs were too big/heavy for the Ha-35 so they couldn't move them into production until the new Ha-4x series were available ... and the Ha-35 was underpowered in 1939 ... by '42 it should have been retired, instead it was the primary engine for 3 more years of war. Don't get me wrong, the Zero design was amazing ... but if the IJ had had engines similar to the allies ... well if wishes were horses, beggars would ride as my grandma always said.



F7F? Can't tell if you mean F6F or F8F.

THe A6M8 is roughly comparable to the F6F IMO. It's no Corsair, but the Corsair doesn't arrive in good enough numbers to sustain naval operations until 9/44.

Sorry, F6F ...

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Post #: 113
RE: Japan Questions - 10/15/2016 4:59:42 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

THe A6M8 is roughly comparable to the F6F IMO.


Well, all I can say is I will take the F6F every day and twice on Sunday's over any A6M airframe.

F6F is faster, higher DUR, and better armament.

Sam and the F6F make a good match, and there the A7M has a slight (but noticeable) advantage overall IMHO. But of course by the time you can get the A7M, F8F and F4U are common and they are definitely better ...

All opinion, and every player has their own. No big deal ...

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 10/15/2016 5:01:07 AM >


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Post #: 114
RE: Japan Questions - 10/15/2016 12:18:04 PM   
Anthropoid


Posts: 3107
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

A7M is what you need and no matter what you do, getting that plane any time in '43 is very tough to do. Now a good question is could they have? My opinion is yes, but they clearly did not and for some specific reasons. It all revolved around the engine, specifically the induction. They could not get the 2 stage blower to work and they wasted 3 years on it ... a very bad case of NIH. They easily could have obtained what they needed from an Axis partner, but chose not to. Bad choice IMHO. Did it change the outcome of the war? No. But they also failed to provide the best possible armament to their pilots ... and i do have an issue with that ... but that's another conversation.


No offense meant to Japan as a whole, I love the culture and people but . . . it seems like overall, the Japanese "High Command" were _incompetent_. Were they outmatched from the start? Mmmm, not _exactly_. Were they destined to quickly become outmatched, yes no doubt about that. Nonetheless, I think it is pretty clear from some of the stunning success some JFB have had against competent allied PBEM opponents that Japan had what it needed to achieve greater success than it did, and to thus have been in a reasonable position to sue for agreeable peace terms.

I want to learn more about what transpired within the society between say 1900 and 1931. It seems to me that this is when the seeds of the destruction of the Empire of Japan were being planted.

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Post #: 115
RE: Japan Questions - 10/15/2016 6:57:31 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

A7M is what you need and no matter what you do, getting that plane any time in '43 is very tough to do. Now a good question is could they have? My opinion is yes, but they clearly did not and for some specific reasons. It all revolved around the engine, specifically the induction. They could not get the 2 stage blower to work and they wasted 3 years on it ... a very bad case of NIH. They easily could have obtained what they needed from an Axis partner, but chose not to. Bad choice IMHO. Did it change the outcome of the war? No. But they also failed to provide the best possible armament to their pilots ... and i do have an issue with that ... but that's another conversation.


No offense meant to Japan as a whole, I love the culture and people but . . . it seems like overall, the Japanese "High Command" were _incompetent_. Were they outmatched from the start? Mmmm, not _exactly_. Were they destined to quickly become outmatched, yes no doubt about that. Nonetheless, I think it is pretty clear from some of the stunning success some JFB have had against competent allied PBEM opponents that Japan had what it needed to achieve greater success than it did, and to thus have been in a reasonable position to sue for agreeable peace terms.

I want to learn more about what transpired within the society between say 1900 and 1931. It seems to me that this is when the seeds of the destruction of the Empire of Japan were being planted.

I would be cautious about extrapolating game results into potential reality. IJFB's can achieve early success LARGELY due to their perfect intelligence on allied force dispositions and reinforcement schedules.


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Post #: 116
RE: Japan Questions - 10/15/2016 7:31:19 PM   
btd64


Posts: 9973
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From: Mass. USA. now in Lancaster, OHIO
Status: offline
Pax, I'm wondering if you could put your Airframe ideas into a chart or spreadsheet/document, etc.? I for one would like to see it and maybe use it if I get involved with the Japanese side again. Others would probably like to see your thoughts as well. What do you say?....GP

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Post #: 117
RE: Japan Questions - 10/15/2016 8:13:18 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: General Patton

Pax, I'm wondering if you could put your Airframe ideas into a chart or spreadsheet/document, etc.? I for one would like to see it and maybe use it if I get involved with the Japanese side again. Others would probably like to see your thoughts as well. What do you say?....GP

GP,

If I had time ... I still work full time, I teach graduate level classes part time, and I have a 7yo ...

That's why there is no PBEM for me and my current AI game (started early this year) has almost reached 1Feb42.

A lot of things I want to do just don't happen yet ...


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Pax

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Post #: 118
RE: Japan Questions - 10/15/2016 8:33:37 PM   
Anthropoid


Posts: 3107
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

A7M is what you need and no matter what you do, getting that plane any time in '43 is very tough to do. Now a good question is could they have? My opinion is yes, but they clearly did not and for some specific reasons. It all revolved around the engine, specifically the induction. They could not get the 2 stage blower to work and they wasted 3 years on it ... a very bad case of NIH. They easily could have obtained what they needed from an Axis partner, but chose not to. Bad choice IMHO. Did it change the outcome of the war? No. But they also failed to provide the best possible armament to their pilots ... and i do have an issue with that ... but that's another conversation.


No offense meant to Japan as a whole, I love the culture and people but . . . it seems like overall, the Japanese "High Command" were _incompetent_. Were they outmatched from the start? Mmmm, not _exactly_. Were they destined to quickly become outmatched, yes no doubt about that. Nonetheless, I think it is pretty clear from some of the stunning success some JFB have had against competent allied PBEM opponents that Japan had what it needed to achieve greater success than it did, and to thus have been in a reasonable position to sue for agreeable peace terms.

I want to learn more about what transpired within the society between say 1900 and 1931. It seems to me that this is when the seeds of the destruction of the Empire of Japan were being planted.

I would be cautious about extrapolating game results into potential reality. IJFB's can achieve early success LARGELY due to their perfect intelligence on allied force dispositions and reinforcement schedules.



It is a good point. But then, how "in the dark" could the Japanese High Command have been?

Up until what? 15 January 1935? (the date when Japan walked out on the Second London Naval Treaty talks) Japan was "buddies" with the Anglo and Western powers. Many of her ships had been built in the Great Britain. Much of her military doctrine and technology had been initially gained through friendly relationships with either Britain or the United States, or France, eh? Some of her top military leaders (in both army and navy) had undertaken education in Europe or the U.S. There were large Japanese expatriate communities in many parts of the Pacific, and including the Western United States, and certainly these communities facilitated human intelligence and basic social intelligence gathering. Given the general transparency of American if not also the Western European societies, it might not have been too difficult to come up with a reasonable estimate to total OOB as well as roughly where it was deployed and how long it might take to recruit/build more eh?

I agree, the precision and perfect accuracy of player intell is unrealistic, but on the whole a basic knowledge must have been in hand for both sides?

< Message edited by Anthropoid -- 10/15/2016 8:34:01 PM >


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Post #: 119
RE: Japan Questions - 10/15/2016 11:17:21 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

I agree, the precision and perfect accuracy of player intell is unrealistic, but on the whole a basic knowledge must have been in hand for both sides?

Yes, and no.

OK, I'm really trying here not to offend. If I do, not intentional, but the door was opened and I was invited ...

You are both over-simplifying and over-looking too much about human behavior. Here is just brief sampling ...

All sides thought/assumed everyone was cheating (most were in some fashion), both sides were very concerned about 'black' ships, and then finally once hostilities opened, both sides knew that enemy losses were being exaggerated, but didn't know to what extent. Finally both sides hid actual losses from their respective public for long periods ...

I could go on for weeks ...

How to proceed: read memoirs from the commanders of the day ... Doenitz and Von Manstein are good places to start ... then you need to have experience with command. I don't how else to say it; either you have had people under your direction suffer as a result of your decisions or you haven't. Or let me put it another way; the book lists used in the study of martial history at say VMI or Anapolis as compared to say Berkley are just a 'little' bit different. They are different because the teachers at the institutions, while all excellent, have a different perspective.

I'm not trying to belittle anyone here, but at the same time life experiences do matter. They impact perspective. Perspective is what this is about. Nimitz' perspective was vastly different than most players ... to see how far, just read his commm's ... they have largely been declassified and you can download and read all of his missives from the entire war ... I think it is some 3000 pages ...

My perspective is; I have been a student of this for 50 years in various capacities. I have lost people who were my responsibility. I had 29 funerals in 3 days once. I work very diligently every day to avoid a repetition ... I have been mostly, but not perfectly successful, in that.


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Post #: 120
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