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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

 
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/16/2016 11:47:21 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'm going to forego what might be a tough battle in my rear while instead moving further into John's rear.


Sounds like an alien probe! I'm sure it will give him recurring nightmares ...

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/17/2016 3:18:10 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		I really think that it is time to open up the Torres Strait. Whether or not you take Port Moresby, getting his forces off Horn Island will be the best way to protect your own rear. JMO

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fair winds,
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/17/2016 2:20:38 PM   
Cap Mandrake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I'm going to forego what might be a tough battle in my rear while instead moving further into John's rear.


Sounds like an alien probe! I'm sure it will give him recurring nightmares ...


Sounds like a Siegfried and Roy show


< Message edited by Cap Mandrake -- 11/17/2016 2:30:27 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/17/2016 2:45:41 PM   
Cap Mandrake


Posts: 23184
Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Couldn't you just go to Perth if you had to? Or does John control Perth? Damaged ships go to Perth or CT or Ceylon via the Timor Sea. You could easily wreck the airbases on Timor.

Attack! Attack! Attack! Forward to the PI!

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/17/2016 3:18:38 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Reality intruded. As I began configuring TFs at Boela for the next phase, the vast number of merchants that need to clear the area and return to the Pacific dictates the order of events. Death Star will escort this herd into the Gulf of Carpentaria. En route, amphibious landings will take place at Bathurst and Wessel (and possibly Gove). All ships will then make for Normanton. Once Horn Island falls, most of the Herd will exit in the Coral Sea, refuel, and return to Hawaii.

At that point, I think the carriers will upgrade (10/43 only) at Normanton. If John hasn't deployed KB to the DEI by then, Operation Carousel (occupying islands closer to Java) will take place. Everything I need - units, fuel, supply - is at Normanton.

Death Star is in remarkably good shape considering she's been at sea for three months. SYS damage ranges from 0 to 2 on all capital ships. This is one advantage of never using flank speed and most days only steaming 50% or less of range. I think I can keep up the pressure until Fun House is ready to roll in March.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/17/2016 3:27:04 PM   
Canoerebel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake
Couldn't you just go to Perth if you had to? Or does John control Perth? Damaged ships go to Perth or CT or Ceylon via the Timor Sea. You could easily wreck the airbases on Timor.

Attack! Attack! Attack! Forward to the PI!


Yes, the Timor Sea to Perth is one of my exit strategies. I would only us it in an emergency, because fuel stocks are low in western Oz and because of the added time it would take for ships to get from there to where they need to be.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/17/2016 3:34:36 PM   
Canoerebel


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Big Tent: Big Tent is collapsing in. All forward missions except Ambon and Morotai are complete and the ships retiring to or back at Boela. Most loading of troops at Boela is complete. A vast host of ships departs the port and vicinity tonight, starting the first steps in a sequential plan that will culminate with the Horn Island invasion.

There was little action in the Big Tent AOO today. A two-DD USN TF sank two xAK at Dili.

Recon shows Bathhurst Island vacant. One 1st Marine Div. RCT (weak, inexperienced) will occupy the island along with a USN engineering regiment. Wessel is also vacant and will get an Aussie tank unit and small infantry detachment.

I'm leaning towards proceeding with the Gove invasion too. 2nd Marine Div. is 43% prepped. I'll use 30 APA and AKA to pick up this unit at Dobo. That should ensure that loading and unloading go ultra fast.

Roller Coaster: Allied attack at Kwaj by a couple of small units indicates that John hasn't reinforced but may have landed supply. I lost a dozen or two squads in this effort. John has lots of merchants at Roi-Namur. I think he's evacuating, but I haven't confirmed yet. KB is still located there.

Burma: Massed Allied 2EB hit two infantry divisions in the jungle north of Mandalay, doing some damage. John still isn't showing a large fighter presence here. I'll keep working the area, hoping to eventually persuade him that fighters are needed.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 11/17/2016 3:35:59 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/17/2016 3:35:28 PM   
Canoerebel


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Status: offline 		ignore this post, at least for awhile

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/17/2016 3:40:34 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

ignore this post, at least for awhile

Done!

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/17/2016 3:46:22 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
I'm running the latest Beta, but it has worked very consistently for me for a really long time. I don't think there have been any recent changes to that stuff.


The next time I do this, I will take screenshots, etc. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm just 95% sure that I'm not.

I can't even venture a guess without a bunch of details.

Just keep in mind that we are talking about three thresholds AFAIK.
• The recipient of the fuel is below the threshold related to 'endurance needed'.
• The recipient of the fuel is below the threshold of its own fuel capacity (IIRC that is 70 or 75%, but don't recall - the purpose is to keep the ship from refueling literally every turn).
• The provider of the fuel is above a threshold related to 'endurance needed' and/or a threshold related to its own fuel capacity (don't know but maybe a ship will never give fuel if it is below x%).


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/17/2016 4:09:43 PM   
Cap Mandrake


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Joined: 11/15/2002
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Ah, I see, I forgot (or never knew) he controlled Darwin. That does kind of change things. Clearly, you will need to clear the Torres St.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/17/2016 4:29:22 PM   
ny59giants


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Status: offline 		Why do you need to go all the way back to Pearl? Are you that short of xAPs to move troops from there to Australia? There are many classes of xAKs that can convert to xAPs in less than a month.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/17/2016 4:49:59 PM   
Lokasenna


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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs
I'm running the latest Beta, but it has worked very consistently for me for a really long time. I don't think there have been any recent changes to that stuff.


The next time I do this, I will take screenshots, etc. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm just 95% sure that I'm not.

I can't even venture a guess without a bunch of details.

Just keep in mind that we are talking about three thresholds AFAIK.
• The recipient of the fuel is below the threshold related to 'endurance needed'.
• The recipient of the fuel is below the threshold of its own fuel capacity (IIRC that is 70 or 75%, but don't recall - the purpose is to keep the ship from refueling literally every turn).
• The provider of the fuel is above a threshold related to 'endurance needed' and/or a threshold related to its own fuel capacity (don't know but maybe a ship will never give fuel if it is below x%).



These thresholds are detailed in some places. I want to say that the extra that the providing ship needs to have is +25% over the estimate required for the remainder of the mission, but would need to look it up.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/17/2016 7:08:51 PM   
Canoerebel


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Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		1/10/44

Big Tent: The Herd and Death Star are away, moving towards the Saumlauki region to deliver troop fragments to several outposts. The big APA/AKA TF should arrive at Dobo tonight. I think it will only take one day to load 2nd Marine Div., which is bound for Gove. No hostile action today. The shipping at Morotai withdraws to Boela tonight. The ships at Ambon get one more day. D-Days at Bathurst and Wessel are probably three or four days away.

Third Ring: Horn Island appears ripe for the plucking. It should be more like Merauke than Ambon. John's fighters chewed up a goodly number of 4EB at Port Moresby today. He's vigorously working his defenses there.

Roller Coaster: KB is still in the Marshalls. See map for details.




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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/17/2016 9:29:47 PM   
Canoerebel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants
Why do you need to go all the way back to Pearl? Are you that short of xAPs to move troops from there to Australia? There are many classes of xAKs that can convert to xAPs in less than a month.


I haven't decided whether the next "big thing" (Fun House) will originate from Hawaii or from Oz. If from Oz, I need lots more low-value transports (x-class) to carry troops from Hawaii to Oz. If from Hawaii, I need the high-value ships and many of the x-class to move from Oz to Hawaii. Both points of origin have merit, though presently I'm leaning toward originating in Oz.

Right now Hawaii is crammed with troops preparing for Fun House. I have a few good amphibious ships and a not-too-impressive number of xAP and xAK. In fact, what I have in that theater had better stay there to handle future transportation needs between the USA and Hawaii.

Big Tent involved more than 700 ships. I've lost about 66, and I've added about 50 (from Oz, relatively recently).

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/17/2016 9:38:09 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		1/11/44

Big Tent and Third Ring: Things are winding down now. The only remaining mission is to unload the supply xAKs at Ambon. That will take one more day.

Death Star and nearly all of the Herd have departed Boela making for Step 1, reuniting unit fragments with parents at Saumlaki and Babar. That should take two days. Then the Herd moves on Bathurst, Wessel and Gove.

KB wasn't sighted today, but is likely near the Marshalls. John may deploy it to the Solomon Sea, but it definitely can't factor into any of the missions before Horn Island.

Recon shows Bathurst and Wessel vacant.

Remnants of enemy units at Merauke wiped out today.

Roller Coaster: John withdrew everything from Kwaj and most of his troops from Roi-Namur. This included part (all?) of 56th Div., which SigInt reports is bound for Truk. I'm pretty sure that's just a waypoint, as Truk is already heavily garrisoned.

So John is thinking more defensively - more "rearward" - than I gave him credit for yesterday. I wish I could move forward in the vacuum that will exist a few more days, but I've simply got to get the vast number of merchants out of the DEI and back into the Pacific. So the future took priority over the present, as I see it.






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< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 11/18/2016 12:50:12 AM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/18/2016 1:12:14 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		1/12/44

Roller Coaster: The Allies take all-but-vacant Kwajalein, bringing a six month op to a close. BB Washington, badly damaged in the original invasion, just made it to Alameda today, after holing up at Maloelap for months. She'll be ready for action in seven months. What happens from here in the Marshalls? I'll withdraw some of the better troops (the gritty, powerful Aussies) for use elsewhere.

KB and Third Ring: Spotted near Truk. Where does she go next? If to the Solomons, then I have a surprise for John. If she goes to the DEI or somewhere else, then Horn Island is the next major undertaking. See map for more info about the garrison there. I think it's ripe for the picking after months of attention from 4EB.

Big Tent: Death Star and the Herd move without incident. The Saumlaki TFs are already in place and unloading. The Babar TF will arrive tomorrow.

Except for one supply TF lingering at Ambon, Big Tent has closed. It is complete. I think it was successful beyond my wildest dreams. All five major objectives were taken (see info below). Some 15-20 minor objectives fell. The op dislocated the enemy defenses, forcing John to scramble. His navy suffered some attrition, which prompted him to withdraw a bit. And the cost to the Allies was minimal: one capital ship (CLAA Richmond) and a handful of high-value ships (APA, AKA, AK and TK). The war has turned. John is scrambling hard (and with some success) to reconfigure his defenses. Early on, he was working on north New Guinea, Java and Makassar. Now I see mostly signs of him working in the lower half of the Philippines, including SigInt today of Guards Mixed Brigade at Cebu + arty and engineers bound for Manila. SigInt that 48th Div. is aboard a ship bound for Rabaul (I think this unit was at Ponape; Rabaul is probably a waypoint).

When Big Tent got underway in late October, I thought it would last until late January. The plan was to keep Death Star in theater for months to provide security while the engineers built facilities. That, in turn, would allow merchantmen to unload the supply reserves brought along. The op unfolded much along those lines.

The status of the five major bases (P=port, A=airfield, F=forts, S=supply; and AV=assault value)

Manokwari: P 2.09; A 4.30; F 3.71; S 72k; AV 428 (1st Cavalry Div.)
Sorong: P 4.41, A 6.52; F 3.38; S 235k; AV 354 (41st Div.)
Morotai: P 2.04; A 3.72; F 3.34; S 82k; AV 455 (5th Indian Div.)
Boela: P 3.19; A 5.62; F 3.03; S 111k; AV 424 (40th Div.)
Ambon: P 2.00; A 4.00; F 2.51; S 43k; AV 289 (33rd Div.)

Other bases are being developed, such as Galaia (near Morotai), Babo, Dobo, and Babar. But the only other base I'd really count on at the moment is Saumlaki: P 1.13, A 1.15; F 2.07; S 11k; AV 154 (19th Regiment reinforced).

In addition, Merauke, Groote Eylandt, and Mornington Island (Third Ring objectives) have been taken, the invasion of Gove (Third Ring) is imminent, and amphibious TFs are moving to occupy vacant Bathurst Island and Wessel Island (Carousel objectives).

Death Star and the entire fleet is in great condition, with minimal SYS damage after months of campaigning. The development of Normanton as a seaport allows replenishment of the fleet and the loading of supply and reinforcements for future operations. If John keeps KB in the Solomon Sea area, I'll trigger Carousel full force before I hit Horn Island. The Allies will move in strength back towards Java. But if John moves KB to the DEI, then I'll proceed with the Horn Island invasion.

In the medium term, I plan to proceed with Fun House, the next major operation, sometime in March. Reinforcements are gathering at Pearl. Already, there is a CV, two CVL, and nine CVE present there, along with two BB. Three other BBs, including New Jersey and Iowa, are currently inbound.






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 11/18/2016 1:15:49 AM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/18/2016 1:14:07 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		1/13/44

Big Tent/Third Ring: Refer to map for most details.

SigInt: In addition to the reports noted on the map, 7th Ind. Infantry Brig. bound for Jolo.

John's Mindset: He's energized and engaged. It could be as simple as taking pleasure in retrieving forward, exposed, now-out-of-position units successfully for redeployment elsewhere. Or it could be something else. Two things that bear watching:
(1) Where does he send KB?
(2) SigInt reports 48th and 56th divisions, just extracted from the Marshalls, bound for Rabaul. This is almost certainly a waypoint. But is he committing them to the Solomons or north New Guinea? If so (very unlikely, IMO) he's still thinking forward and attack. But if he diverts them to west to shore up his new perimeter, then he's thinking defensively.




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< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 11/18/2016 11:44:47 AM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/18/2016 4:55:04 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		1/14/44

Carousel/Third Ring: Landing at Bathurst Island goes well. The base is vacant. Three LSTs need one more day to offload an engineer fragment and more supply. This is a full engineer regiment; the intent is to build Bathurst large enough to get John's attention. He won't like the possibility of Darwin being cut off.

Enemy LBA sorties in large numbers overall, with moderately-sized packaged escorted by Georges and other good fighters. But the CAP is simply too much for them. John had to try and may try again, but his air force got a spanking. It happened during Big Tent a few times. He may conclude that he just has to commit KB to the DEI.

KB: And KB may be on the way. She's moved out from Truk on a NW heading. She could be heading to Japan for upgrades, but I'll be most concerned about her slipping through the South China Sea to pounce from the Java Sea or the IO, at some unpropitious (for me) moment. But that's where I want her - not roaming the Pacific interfering with certain plans and activities that even now are underway....




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< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 11/18/2016 4:56:16 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/18/2016 5:04:04 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		The "Big" in Big Tent was well earned!

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/18/2016 7:41:00 PM   
paullus99


Posts: 1985
Joined: 1/23/2002
Status: offline 		Very interesting - at this point, everything East of your positions in New Guinea are basically cut off - he can try to defend at Rabaul, but why?

At this point, you could easily use your current position to move further into the DEI & up towards the Philippines, which makes, again, everything to the East academic at best....and a huge waste of resources and troops at worst.

It's like a giant pincer coming north (and south) that's going to catch John in its jaws......he still wants to fight forward, which, given your clear superiority in recon and carriers, a fool's errand.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/18/2016 7:53:04 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I think John's coming to grips with that very reality, paullus. His sudden focus on the Philippines (per SigInt and nav search), the pulling troops out of the Marshalls, and the (apparent) forthcoming deployment of KB rearward rather than forward suggest that's the case.

I'll finish the work needed to create the LOC between Big Tent and eastern Oz. Then I'll turn my attention forward again.

I think I have four possible vectors of attack now: west through the southern DEI towards Soerabaja, Palembang and Singapore; northwest through the DEI towards the Philippines; west out of CenPac towards the northern PI, Taiwan, Okinawa or even the Home Islands; or NW out of CenPac and West out of the NoPac towards the northern Home Islands.

I've already made my selection (though it's subject to change). It won't be a huge leap forward like China or Korea or Vietnam. But neither will it be a plodding attack aimed at major bases John's strongly garrisoned, like Ternate or Manado.

I think John's going to have to place KB between DS and his heartland. That's his only hope of stopping an advance (short of extreme good fortune or me screwing up something really badly, both of which are possible). His best hope is to combine big LBA and KB in an environment where subs and possibly combat ships can create confusion, dispersal or damage so that he might have a crack at Allied force in detail. The DEI is probably the most favorable environment for him to give that a try, right now.

As KB is pulling away, I'm more likely to proceed with the invasion of Port Moresby (and possibly Terapo and Milne Bay) to secure my LOC. Then, if John is holed up strongly in the DEI, I might combine all forces and advance through the Pacfic, where he'll have the hardest time utilizing big airfields.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/19/2016 1:18:45 AM   
Capt. Harlock


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quote:

everything to the East academic at best....and a huge waste of resources and troops at worst.


It's 1944 and the Superforts on on the way -- I think denying the Marianas to the USAAF has value.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/19/2016 8:04:03 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		1/15/44

Big Tent: Satawal falls today, suddenly and completely. John uses Haruna and friends to bombard, uses massed strike aircraft, and lands an infantry regiment that winds up with a "0" for AV, but is still strong enough to overcome a few Caledonians and US air force security teams. It was great while it lasted. Satawal provided critical information for nearly two months. But she will be sorely, sorely missed.

The powerful enemy bombardment TF caused me to clinch tightly - muscle memory of the horror that was Sabang for month after month. For a moment I thought it was February 1943 again. Augh!

We may be entering a phase reminiscent of the weeks before the Battle of the Bulge. The enemy has been bludgeoned for months, retreating in disarray...but then gathers itself, turns, and lashes out. I expect John to come to the DEI, but he could send KB almost anywhere.

Carousel: The first (and perhaps only) Operation Carousel mission goes smoothly. Bathurst auto flips and the engineers build one fort in the same day. That's good work!

Third Ring: Death Star and the Herd move on to Wessel and then Gove. Landing at Wessel should commence tomorrow; Gove the day after. I expect Gove to be too tough to take. 2nd Marines will come ashore, gauge its strength, and likely hunker down. Combat TFs will bombard and then retire to Normanton to replenish.

xAKs at Normanton have pre-loaded 80k supply. This will be delivered to Big Tent bases if John doesn't deploy KB in the DEI.






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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/19/2016 5:23:18 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		A quick question. The Herd includes two tankers filled with oil and some xAKs with resources (both loaded at Boela). These will be unloaded in Oz, mainly in the hope that a little fuel will be generated there.

Does it matter where I unload the oil and resources? Does it need to be a major base, like Sydney, where there are facilities to handle these? Or can I unload them at a distant base like Normanton, knowing that they'll then be moved to Sydney, etc.?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/19/2016 5:55:38 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		1/16/44

Third Ring: Landing at Wessel unmolested. The base should auto-flip tomorrow. Landings at Gove tomorrow.

Big Tent: Quiet today. The loss of Satawal and it's forward nav search is felt deeply. I don't know where KB is. You know my guess, but there is that element of doubt.

Logistics: We've reached the point where the Allies have so many assets in motion, so many needs, and so many reinforcements arriving, that every turn now takes a heckuva lot of time. I enjoy the planning and logistics a lot.




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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/19/2016 7:31:17 PM   
BBfanboy


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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

A quick question. The Herd includes two tankers filled with oil and some xAKs with resources (both loaded at Boela). These will be unloaded in Oz, mainly in the hope that a little fuel will be generated there.

Does it matter where I unload the oil and resources? Does it need to be a major base, like Sydney, where there are facilities to handle these? Or can I unload them at a distant base like Normanton, knowing that they'll then be moved to Sydney, etc.?

Oil and resources will flow quite well from Normanton to the railhead at Cairns or Townsville.

BTW - it's weigh anchor, as in "take up the weight" from the sea floor.

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 11/19/2016 7:36:04 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/20/2016 4:07:49 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		RE: Bathurst - it's not possible to order them to build the forts, so likely what happened is forts were already at 1 and you auto-occupied it, taking over the forts. Just a little procedural comment...

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 8038
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/20/2016 12:40:28 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I think all bases are auto-set at 10% forts and "to build." So I think the navy engineers did auto-complete that first fort of the day of the auto-flip. Lending credence to this is that I don't think John ever occupied Bathurst (that's based upon months of observation, so it is proof, but not conclusive proof).

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 8039
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 11/20/2016 12:47:12 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I think all bases are auto-set at 10% forts and "to build." So I think the navy engineers did auto-complete that first fort of the day of the auto-flip. Lending credence to this is that I don't think John ever occupied Bathurst (that's based upon months of observation, so it is proof, but not conclusive proof).

Not sure about them completing the first fort or capturing it that way, but a small clarification: forts being set "to build" or not when you take a base depends on your game settings. In our PBM we have building set to OFF so when we capture a base we have to tell it to build anything we want.

We did it that way because the first couple of turns of a GC are click-hell enough, and it was way less net clicks to turn on the building we wanted going right away than to turn off what we didn't want.

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(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 8040
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