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German and Italian Carriers never show up

 
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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Strategic Command Series >> Strategic Command WWII War in Europe >> German and Italian Carriers never show up Page: [1]
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German and Italian Carriers never show up - 11/24/2016 7:05:16 PM   
MrLongleg

 

Posts: 707
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Plymouth, MA, USA
Status: offline 		I agreed to both decisions to build the carrier for Germany and Italy, paid the price in MPP over many rounds and the carriers never show up. It is Sep 41 and I am still waiting for them. Is that a bug?

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MrLongleg

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RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up - 11/24/2016 7:19:26 PM   
BillRunacre

 

Posts: 4945
Joined: 7/22/2013
Status: offline 		Hi

The Graf Zeppelin will arrive in January 1942 and the Aquila at the start of 1943.

You might want to have a look at the Decisions in the Strategy Guides (and the 1939 one is also contained at the end of the Manual) as these will give information on all the Decisions to help keep an eye on what to expect.



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RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up - 11/24/2016 7:55:48 PM   
gaiuslaelius

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 11/14/2016
Status: offline 		So the naval units are single ships on a map of 20 miles per hex with no stacking? If the player moves a force of a capital ship surrounded by escorting vessels, then the distance between the starboard and port escorts (or the van and the rear) is going to be an absolute minimum of 40 miles. There's something wrong with that. Perhaps I'm mistaken regarding the 20 miles per hex. If not, then perhaps naval units should represent formations such as "Force H" or "Force Harstad"- or even entire fleets. Such formations might actually be container units to which individual naval units could be attached. Just sayin...

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Post #: 3
RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up - 11/24/2016 8:10:51 PM   
xwormwood


Posts: 1149
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: Bremen, Germany
Status: offline 		Naval units are not single ships, they only bear the name of a single ship, that is all.

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RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up - 11/25/2016 5:46:59 PM   
gaiuslaelius

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 11/14/2016
Status: offline 		The Germans receive a BB in Feb 41 (Bismarck) and another in Aug 41 (Tirpitz). They start the game with two CCs (Scharnhorst and Gneisenau). So for them anyway, capital ships appear to be single units. Regardless, even if smaller units comprise divisions or even squadrons, the hex scale is entirely too large for such formations.

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Post #: 5
RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up - 11/25/2016 6:18:13 PM   
n0kn0k

 

Posts: 564
Joined: 6/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gaiuslaelius

So the naval units are single ships on a map of 20 miles per hex with no stacking? If the player moves a force of a capital ship surrounded by escorting vessels, then the distance between the starboard and port escorts (or the van and the rear) is going to be an absolute minimum of 40 miles. There's something wrong with that. Perhaps I'm mistaken regarding the 20 miles per hex. If not, then perhaps naval units should represent formations such as "Force H" or "Force Harstad"- or even entire fleets. Such formations might actually be container units to which individual naval units could be attached. Just sayin...


I believe it's 15 per hex.

(in reply to gaiuslaelius)
Post #: 6
RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up - 11/25/2016 6:22:28 PM   
gaiuslaelius

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 11/14/2016
Status: offline 		From what I've read, it's 20. Just sayin.

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Post #: 7
RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up - 11/25/2016 8:55:44 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gaiuslaelius

The Germans receive a BB in Feb 41 (Bismarck) and another in Aug 41 (Tirpitz). They start the game with two CCs (Scharnhorst and Gneisenau). So for them anyway, capital ships appear to be single units.
warspite1

Now that is more than a little disappointing......

What do the Italians have?


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Post #: 8
RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up - 11/25/2016 9:10:06 PM   
Challerain

 

Posts: 270
Joined: 6/16/2001
From: Mansfield, Texas
Status: offline 		Manual clearly states that a naval unit represents several combat and support units clustered around a named capital ship

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Post #: 9
RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up - 11/25/2016 9:39:31 PM   
Amona

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 3/31/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1




What do the Italians have?



The Regia Marina consists of 4 BB, 3 CA, 1 CL, 1 DD and a sub. Later they get two more battleships, if I remember correctly.
Remember that the Royal Navy has its carriers, and thats a huge advantage, especially against the AI.
Regarding your excellent AAR, the British Med fleet is a bit weak to counter the Italians at present. You may consider giving up the Med in respect to naval and concentrating the fleet in the North Sea. Try to lure out the Kriegsmarine by raiding the Norwegian convoy. Once you have sunk the two German BBs and the two CCs, you can concentrate on the Med again.
The Italians do nothing dangerous with their fleet anyway, it only becomes a problem if you want to land in Sicily and so on.

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Post #: 10
RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up - 11/25/2016 9:47:41 PM   
gaiuslaelius

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 11/14/2016
Status: offline 		Many thanks Challerain for the info. I have only youtube videos for reference and am trying to determine whether the game is worth buying. Regarding light naval forces such as destroyer and light cruiser counters, does the manual reference how many vessels are represented?

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Post #: 11
RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up - 11/25/2016 9:59:33 PM   
Ironclad

 

Posts: 1924
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline 		Follow the fine SC video series of Paradogs Gamer or Night Phoenix and you'll soon gain a good understanding of how the game plays and its scope. Watching those encouraged me to get it on release and its proving even better than expected and we still have the multiplayer option to come. With committed developers we can look forward to it getting even better.

(in reply to gaiuslaelius)
Post #: 12
RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up - 11/25/2016 10:28:45 PM   
gaiuslaelius

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 11/14/2016
Status: offline 		Thank you. I'm currently doing that, although I'm not sold on the naval aspect just yet. The map scale looks overly large for the unit scale; as I understand it, capital ship units represent the ships and escorts. Among other things, it means that German forays into the Atlantic consist of light vessels which lacked the range to do so. It also sounds as though friendly capital ships will never be in the same formation. Not trying to nitpick, but I'll keep watching Paradogs gamers' videos and will look for reviews on Amazon.

< Message edited by gaiuslaelius -- 11/25/2016 10:30:36 PM >

(in reply to Ironclad)
Post #: 13
RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up - 11/26/2016 1:53:31 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

it means that German forays into the Atlantic consist of light vessels which lacked the range to do so. It also sounds as though friendly capital ships will never be in the same formation.

I am with you on this, but first keep in mind that the game is not meant to be an exact historical representation of all things. That said, I think it could, or could at least be very close. So I'm working on a mod that, among other things, incorporates historical oob's. At this scale, for this mod, this means that Naval Units would represent Battle Groups/Task Forces. Easy enough with the nice editor that the guys have given us, but for the German Surface Raiders this is tricky because they weren't meant to work in groups. I took my current solution from 'Plan Z', which envisioned German Battle Groups to distract the UK's fleet while a few Surface Raiders worked the convoys. We'll never know how it would have worked historically, but in the mod it seems to work ok.

(in reply to gaiuslaelius)
Post #: 14
RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up - 11/26/2016 4:36:01 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Amona


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1




What do the Italians have?



The Regia Marina consists of 4 BB, 3 CA, 1 CL, 1 DD and a sub. Later they get two more battleships, if I remember correctly.
Remember that the Royal Navy has its carriers, and thats a huge advantage, especially against the AI.

warspite1

Well I am only just starting out on the game so don't want to say too much but what with this and the Germans getting their 4 BB/BC, that seems a little Axis friendly....


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Post #: 15
RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up - 11/26/2016 5:31:13 AM   
n0kn0k

 

Posts: 564
Joined: 6/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gaiuslaelius

From what I've read, it's 20. Just sayin.


Pardon me, I got mixed up. You are correct.
I remember a discussion about it from way back and both were mentioned.

(in reply to gaiuslaelius)
Post #: 16
RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up - 11/26/2016 6:59:46 AM   
gaiuslaelius

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 11/14/2016
Status: offline 		I know what you're saying. I recall reading something on the game once that referenced 150 km per hex.

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Post #: 17
RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up - 11/26/2016 7:12:35 AM   
gaiuslaelius

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 11/14/2016
Status: offline 		Although I'd submit that the problem is far more logistical than historical, your task force / battle group concept sounds spot on. The U.S. utilized the task force / task group system (Napoleon's Army Corps system at sea), the U.K. operated Force K out of Malta, and the Japanese had "The Striking Force" or "The Support Force". I'd like to hear more about your mod.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 18
RE: German and Italian Carriers never show up - 11/26/2016 8:50:02 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline
quote:

I'd like to hear more about your mod.

I think it's pretty simplistic. First, remove all the Cruisers and Destroyers [except for the minor countries that only had one or two of these types and no capital ships]. Then create 'groups' by adding combat aspects of cruisers and destroyers to BB's and CC's, exception being the German Pocket Battleships which operate by themselves.

It could go a step further and combine these units into, for example, for the UK separate units comprising 'Force H' and 'Force W', etc. This type of change would then include multiple capital ships in one unit, and would greatly reduce the number of naval units, but might unbalance Germany. So I'm not keen on doing that.

Still in the thought process is Kirk's idea of reducing naval movement factors. I'm not too sure of that at this point. I'm also not an expert, by far, on naval warfare in games. In fact, I might just well be an idiot, but so far I like playing this much better than having all of those DD's and CC[L][A]'s to move around the board

(in reply to gaiuslaelius)
Post #: 19
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