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RE: Aviation Units and Hex Occupation

 
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RE: Aviation Units and Hex Occupation - 12/6/2016 3:28:37 PM   
mavraamides


Posts: 447
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

Perhaps no stacking allows the AI to play a better game. If that is the case then I'm happy to live with the abstraction.


Yes. Stacking adds considerable complexity and overhead to the AI. The combinatorial explosion can quickly get out of control even with only 2 units in the same hex.

I'll take this tradeoff as well. Not to mention the fact that with no stacking you can see all of your units at once instead of having to 'dig' through them to see what's there.


(in reply to elmo3)
Post #: 31
RE: Aviation Units and Hex Occupation - 12/6/2016 3:58:17 PM   
ILCK

 

Posts: 422
Joined: 6/26/2004
Status: offline 		I have less issue with the stacking than the resiliency in the face of ground attack of airplanes and frankly a lot of support units, having my level 2 tanks hit a rocket artillery unit and do no damage in two attacks makes zero sense same as has happened hitting airfleets and doing minimal damage. The defender should be heavily penalized for allowing those fragile units to come under direct attack.

(in reply to mavraamides)
Post #: 32
RE: Aviation Units and Hex Occupation - 12/6/2016 4:41:41 PM   
BillRunacre

 

Posts: 4945
Joined: 7/22/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ILCK

I have less issue with the stacking than the resiliency in the face of ground attack of airplanes and frankly a lot of support units, having my level 2 tanks hit a rocket artillery unit and do no damage in two attacks makes zero sense same as has happened hitting airfleets and doing minimal damage. The defender should be heavily penalized for allowing those fragile units to come under direct attack.



Hi

If you see this please send me a save turn as although there can be understandable factors that would reduce the defender's losses (especially the location of the target, its entrenchment value, and the supply value of the attacker) all things being equal the tank attack should hammer the air unit or rocket artillery and make them regret having ever taken up arms against you.

My email is Bill.Runacre@Furysoftware.com

Thanks

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(in reply to ILCK)
Post #: 33
RE: Aviation Units and Hex Occupation - 12/6/2016 4:59:54 PM   
TheBattlefield


Posts: 507
Joined: 6/11/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ILCK
...having my level 2 tanks hit a rocket artillery unit and do no damage in two attacks ...

Sometimes I feel that different game versions have been sold.
Where did that happen? If your tank has not attacked during the deepest winter, without HQ and in catastrophic supply while the enemy support unit stay in a fortress system, you might have discovered a bug.

(in reply to ILCK)
Post #: 34
RE: Aviation Units and Hex Occupation - 12/6/2016 6:22:35 PM   
itkotw2000

 

Posts: 30
Joined: 8/27/2005
Status: offline 		Air units can absolutely defend a hex for a short amount of time. Many times I have used air units to plug gaps in my line, they act like paratroopers that are always ready to jump (they are always ready to bomb, "jump" into a gap, and move "operationally" because of their movement points). I have used them most in North Africa as axis. My units will make a dash, but one unit might move too far and leave an empty hex. In comes the air unit ready to plug the gap. They will get attacked, sure, but they can hold out against an attack or two. Next turn, the air unit can fly hundreds of miles to a rear area and get rebuilt. The air unit's movement points make them very useful.

Clearly, we can't add stacking, but maybe air units could be restricted to be within one hex of a town, that might reduce some of the gamey-ness. This might require a boost in flying range to keep the planes in the fight.

So many things in this game are abstracted to maintain playability, I don't think there is much we can do with planes. As others have posted , this game is primarily for casual gamers, so it is not ever going to be too complicated or stress realism.






(in reply to TheBattlefield)
Post #: 35
RE: Aviation Units and Hex Occupation - 12/6/2016 6:58:10 PM   
Capitaine

 

Posts: 1043
Joined: 1/15/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: itkotw

Clearly, we can't add stacking, but maybe air units could be restricted to be within one hex of a town, that might reduce some of the gamey-ness. This might require a boost in flying range to keep the planes in the fight.

So many things in this game are abstracted to maintain playability, I don't think there is much we can do with planes. As others have posted , this game is primarily for casual gamers, so it is not ever going to be too complicated or stress realism.


Problem there is that many towns that contain airfields are not represented on the map. There are many good-sized towns or cities in a given hex.

(in reply to itkotw2000)
Post #: 36
RE: Aviation Units and Hex Occupation - 12/6/2016 10:14:32 PM   
Hartmann

 

Posts: 888
Joined: 11/28/2000
Status: offline 		Am I the only one who doesn't like stacking out of principle? I hate all games with stacking simply because stacked counters tend to look so ugly.

(in reply to Capitaine)
Post #: 37
RE: Aviation Units and Hex Occupation - 12/6/2016 10:56:36 PM   
Rosseau

 

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline 		It's been this way with stacking/air since day-one of the series, so get used to it

Against the AI, I cannot remember many air units being attacked. But easy enough to test out hot seat, or mod in the editor to lower their resiliency as needed. I see Fighters taking plenty of losses during air interception, as it should be.

(in reply to Hartmann)
Post #: 38
RE: Aviation Units and Hex Occupation - 12/7/2016 2:22:31 PM   
mavraamides


Posts: 447
Joined: 4/1/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hartmann

Am I the only one who doesn't like stacking out of principle? I hate all games with stacking simply because stacked counters tend to look so ugly.


I don't like stacking because of visibility. I hate having to dig through units trying to remember where I put that armored division. It's nice to have all of your units visible at once.

And I think the game kind of get's around that issue by allowing you to move / attack / move, bring in another unit, etc. In fact that game mechanic makes mobility much more important than in a lot of other games which I think adds to the tactical side.

(in reply to Hartmann)
Post #: 39
RE: Aviation Units and Hex Occupation - 12/7/2016 2:26:49 PM   
Goodmongo

 

Posts: 346
Joined: 9/22/2011
Status: offline 		And mobility is not cheap. It costs like 75 or 100 MPP per unit to upgrade. So it really makes you plan on which units should have it.

(in reply to mavraamides)
Post #: 40
RE: Aviation Units and Hex Occupation - 12/7/2016 3:05:27 PM   
Hartmann

 

Posts: 888
Joined: 11/28/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GordianKnot


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hartmann

Am I the only one who doesn't like stacking out of principle? I hate all games with stacking simply because stacked counters tend to look so ugly.


I don't like stacking because of visibility. I hate having to dig through units trying to remember where I put that armored division. It's nice to have all of your units visible at once.


Me too. That's one reason I was a big fan of "Clash of Steel", but not so much of similar games like "Third Reich". The stacking made me crazy.

"One hex, one unit" is a rule to live by.

(in reply to mavraamides)
Post #: 41
RE: Aviation Units and Hex Occupation - 3/23/2017 3:37:17 AM   
Hubert Cater

 

Posts: 5199
Joined: 7/22/2013
Status: offline
quote:

I am just on my first run through with the game and I had a situation where the German army was going through Belgium and an Allied aircraft unit was caught in the front line. It was badly damaged in one turn, but then instead of flying off somewhere for repairs, it stayed put, got reinforced, and then was completely destroyed on the next turn. There were French army units behind it that could have engaged the enemy instead. It did seem a bit odd to me, notwithstanding some of the suggestions here that are saying that their would be other troops with the planes. I would prefer it if aircraft always flew off to a safer area.


Just catching up on some of these earlier posts that caught my eye, and the reason for this particular AI behavior is that once Belgium falls the Belgian air unit would be removed from the map. In this case, and purely from a game play point of view, it arguably makes more sense for the Belgian air unit to stay put and hopefully cause some counter damage in any future attacks upon it and/or to slow down any further advances. A human player would likely do the same thing in this case and the AI is simply mimicking the optimal game play behavior here.

The reinforcement is I agree questionable, and something I can look into if its job is to stand and die, but in other parts of the map where air units can and should logically retreat, they should be doing so.

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(in reply to stockwellpete)
Post #: 42
RE: Aviation Units and Hex Occupation - 3/23/2017 9:08:23 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		I dont mind one hex one unit as much as I mind a strong land unit not immediately displacing an air unit...
At best they should be treatedas weaker garrison units.,.. my 2 cents worth

(in reply to Hubert Cater)
Post #: 43
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