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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

 
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2017 5:56:51 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

The turn is off to John.

I'm trying something new for Fun House:

B-29s from Legaspi and 4EB from Naha to hit Manila at 20k, preceded (ideally) or followed by many top fighter squadrons set to sweep.

John has 200+ fighters based at Manila. The objective is to destroy as many of them as possible, either in the air or on the ground.

Things could go wrong - sweeps follow bombers or John guesses right that an attack is coming and guesses perfectly on altitude - but even then losses should be acceptable. 4EB shouldn't take excessive damage at 20k and even if my fighter squadrons are roughed up there are quite a few remaining at base.


You have Okinawa already?!

And to continue the confusion, the base at the other end of Okinawa is Nago

_____________________________

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2017 1:16:00 PM   
Canoerebel


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Email from a frustrated John III about the situation in Burma: "Am pulling out what little hair there is on my head.  THREE turns ago I had that ID and 3 Reg/Brig ready to move by the RR from Rangoon to Moulmein.  Did they on 7th?  No.  Did they on the 8th??  NO.  Did they move on the 9th???  NO!  Take your gift and I throw in the towel.  Crap…" [the rest of his email makes it absolutely clear he means he's throwing in the towel at Rangoon, not the game itself; he's fine and soldiering on).

He's wrong about the timing and he doesn't understand that you can strat move into a contested hex but not out.

His 18th Div. and a couple of mixed brigades retreated after combat into Rangoon three turns ago. He apparently ordered them to strategic mode that turn. That process takes a minimum of two turns and a maximum of three turns to complete. But during the second turn, a Brit recon unit arrived in the hex. That was enough to prevent his units from departing in strategic mode.

So now he has 30k troops cut off and in the wrong mode. He may have similar problems in Pegu.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2017 1:35:56 PM   
jwolf

 

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I think the Japanese were sure to lose the position at Rangoon and Pegu anyway, but that strat mode mistake really sealed their fate. Ouch.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2017 2:34:46 PM   
BBfanboy


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We all know that John does not have much zest for land warfare, and he probably has not spent much effort learning the wrinkles that make a difference. Strat move rules have lots of ifs, ands and buts. I was considering whether this warranted a do-over but decided, IMO, it was entirely controllable by John so it does not need a do-over. Unfortunately the hit on his morale will make the game less enjoyable for him.

_____________________________

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2017 2:51:40 PM   
Canoerebel


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I ran the same idea through my head and came to the same conclusions.

I've made similar miscalculations in the game, most recently not understanding that my carriers couldn't upgrade at the port I had selected. That little miscalculation played a big part in what happened at Celebes (my carriers ended up going much further away and thus couldn't respond to the emergency as I had originally envisioned).

That was just one of many misunderstandings/miscalculations I've made. I still think the biggest two were: a fundamental lack of understanding of what the Allied fighter replacement rates were (that played a big role in Sumatra) and granting John the "no strat bombing until 1944" house rule.

John may lose 30k very beat up troops (assuming they can't retreat into Pegu since Allied troops are there too). He'll have to rebuild these units, but I don't think he's lost a great deal of squads in the game and he undoubtedly has or will pull out cadres.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2017 3:38:50 PM   
Canoerebel


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5/9/44

Busy day. See map for details.




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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2017 4:16:45 PM   
JohnDillworth


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Maybe delay your Rangoon attack until you capture Pegu? This way the units could not retreat down the coast?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2017 4:24:20 PM   
Canoerebel


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Does the presence of Allied units at Pegu prevent John's Rangoon army from retreating there? Or can they retreat as long as he hold the hexside?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2017 4:26:34 PM   
Canoerebel


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I've already ordered the attack and sent the turn to John, 'cause I have to hit the road for an exciting multi-media speaking engagement at the Funk Heritage Center in Waleska, Georgia. (I get to do the funk today.)

Rangoon has five forts, urban terrain, and probably 100 raw AV, beat up but not totally worthless. I bet he'll hold Rangoon for at least another turn and maybe three or four more turns. He'll have more trouble holding Pegu. It might fall tomorrow; if not, almost surely the day after.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2017 4:48:22 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Does the presence of Allied units at Pegu prevent John's Rangoon army from retreating there? Or can they retreat as long as he hold the hexside?


The presence of units renders that hex useless for retreat purposes for the enemy because retreats only happen along valid supply paths. Your units break that supply path.

So no, they will not retreat to Pegu. If he wants them to leave Rangoon for Pegu, he has to walk them there.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2017 5:30:55 PM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

Does the presence of Allied units at Pegu prevent John's Rangoon army from retreating there? Or can they retreat as long as he hold the hexside?
not sure, you might have a point there

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2017 5:39:19 PM   
Mike McCreery


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A very interesting thing happened to me in my game against MrKane.

I was trying to move northeast to retreat a stack of units. MrKane beat me to the hex by 1 turn. He fully controlled the hex but I controlled the hex side so I expected the next turn to be in that hex. The stack didnt move the next turn and the counter went past the 46 hex movement.

I figured I was done but the very turn afterwards another unit entered the hex from a different location and I guess because the hex was now 'contested' it allowed the units to move into the hex.

So, as long as John holds the hex side and also has units in the destination hex he should be able to move into the hex once the units convert out of strat mode.

It doesnt sound like he will have enough time to complete that though.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/21/2017 6:35:16 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Does the presence of Allied units at Pegu prevent John's Rangoon army from retreating there? Or can they retreat as long as he hold the hexside?


The presence of units renders that hex useless for retreat purposes for the enemy because retreats only happen along valid supply paths. Your units break that supply path.

So no, they will not retreat to Pegu. If he wants them to leave Rangoon for Pegu, he has to walk them there.

CRs army has not crossed the Pegu to Rangoon hex side. Are you saying that is not a valid supply path between the two bases?
I was thinking since John holds Pegu and the both sides of the adjoining hex side are his, he should have no trouble running down the road there.

_____________________________

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/22/2017 1:48:25 AM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Does the presence of Allied units at Pegu prevent John's Rangoon army from retreating there? Or can they retreat as long as he hold the hexside?


The presence of units renders that hex useless for retreat purposes for the enemy because retreats only happen along valid supply paths. Your units break that supply path.

So no, they will not retreat to Pegu. If he wants them to leave Rangoon for Pegu, he has to walk them there.

CRs army has not crossed the Pegu to Rangoon hex side. Are you saying that is not a valid supply path between the two bases?
I was thinking since John holds Pegu and the both sides of the adjoining hex side are his, he should have no trouble running down the road there.


There is not because supply can not flow through the Pegu hex, and you can't retreat to a hex with enemy units in it regardless of hexside control. Ergo, no retreat path exists.

He can manually march there, yes. That's not what he was asking, to my understanding.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/22/2017 2:35:12 AM   
witpqs


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Went through some of this in detail in PBM. Basically, supply flow cares about hex side ownership and ignores hex ownership.

As you know, the boundary between two hexes is actually two hex sides, one that is part of each hex. For example the side of hex A that faces hex B, and the side of hex B that faces hex A. You must own both of those hex sides for supply to flow from hex A to hex B, or from hex B to hex A.

Consider hexes A, B, and C all in a row. If you own both hex sides between A and B, plus both hex sides between B and C, then supply can flow from hex A to hex C, even if there are enemy units (along with yours!) in hex B. We verified that in a PBM beyond doubt.

If you want to stop supply from flowing, you have to gain ownership of at least one of the hex sides the supply is flowing through.

It is true that you cannot trace a retreat path into a hex which contains an enemy unit, but that's the retreat part of the code.

Use the 'w' key to see where supply flow is allowed or blocked based on hex side ownership.

< Message edited by witpqs -- 2/22/2017 2:36:22 AM >


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/22/2017 2:53:06 AM   
Canoerebel


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That was my understanding, though I admit my knowledge is sorta flabby (imprecise boundaries and jiggly).

So John's Rangoon army can't retreat to Pegu but he can march there if he has time to convert the units from strat mode to move (or combat) mode. And it's possible he'll have the time given the forts and urban defense multiplier.

But even if the worst happens, the loss of a 35k army that has been battered for months, repeatedly undergoing forced withdrawals, isn't a huge thing.

Except: John places way too much emphasis on Burma, at least by this time in 1944. He seems to operate under the idea that the Japanese should be able to stand toe to toe with the Allies in Burma without committing his air force.

He made three mistakes in the Burma campaign: (1) kept his army in advanced positions in open terrain close to Allied level 7, 9 and 9 airfields and failed to begin withdrawing until long after he had armies cutting off his units; (2) didn't understand hexside control (he asked me a few weeks ago how one of my units slipped through a hex to a position behind his MLR, not realizing that I owned the hexside); and (3) not understanding how strat mode works when an enemy unit enters the hex from which you wish to depart.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 2/22/2017 2:54:35 AM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/22/2017 3:24:48 AM   
Canoerebel


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I learned today that Lt. General Hal Moore died 11 days ago at age 94. I learned this, purely by coincidence, from a Vietnam War veteran who flew helicopters there in '70 and '71. He and his wife had dinner with Hal Moore, Basil Plumley, and Joe Galloway (among others) at a Veterans Day affair some time ago.

Hal Moore was the author of We Were Soldiers Once, the finest piece of historical writing I've ever read. That's not a new sentiment. I've been telling people that for ten or fifteen years now.

I passed the news along to my oldest son today, who has read We Were Soldiers twice. His reply: "He was a real man."

He was indeed. It's good to have men like Moore to depend upon.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 2/22/2017 3:25:07 AM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/22/2017 5:39:42 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Does the presence of Allied units at Pegu prevent John's Rangoon army from retreating there? Or can they retreat as long as he hold the hexside?


The presence of units renders that hex useless for retreat purposes for the enemy because retreats only happen along valid supply paths. Your units break that supply path.

So no, they will not retreat to Pegu. If he wants them to leave Rangoon for Pegu, he has to walk them there.

CRs army has not crossed the Pegu to Rangoon hex side. Are you saying that is not a valid supply path between the two bases?
I was thinking since John holds Pegu and the both sides of the adjoining hex side are his, he should have no trouble running down the road there.


There is not because supply can not flow through the Pegu hex, and you can't retreat to a hex with enemy units in it regardless of hexside control. Ergo, no retreat path exists.

He can manually march there, yes. That's not what he was asking, to my understanding.

But flow from where to where? How does one define the start and end of a supply path? I contend that from one base to another base is a path, no matter how short it be. And per witpqs explanation of the hex side issue, since John owns both hex sides between the bases he can retreat there. We'll just have to watch it play out and see if the question is answered during the contest.

_____________________________

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/22/2017 9:44:04 AM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Does the presence of Allied units at Pegu prevent John's Rangoon army from retreating there? Or can they retreat as long as he hold the hexside?


The presence of units renders that hex useless for retreat purposes for the enemy because retreats only happen along valid supply paths. Your units break that supply path.

So no, they will not retreat to Pegu. If he wants them to leave Rangoon for Pegu, he has to walk them there.

CRs army has not crossed the Pegu to Rangoon hex side. Are you saying that is not a valid supply path between the two bases?
I was thinking since John holds Pegu and the both sides of the adjoining hex side are his, he should have no trouble running down the road there.


There is not because supply can not flow through the Pegu hex, and you can't retreat to a hex with enemy units in it regardless of hexside control. Ergo, no retreat path exists.

He can manually march there, yes. That's not what he was asking, to my understanding.

But flow from where to where? How does one define the start and end of a supply path? I contend that from one base to another base is a path, no matter how short it be. And per witpqs explanation of the hex side issue, since John owns both hex sides between the bases he can retreat there. We'll just have to watch it play out and see if the question is answered during the contest.


The manual states the hex available for retreat must not be "solely" occupied by the enemy.

I've always operated based on the idea they would not retreat into a hex the enemy is "present" in as Loka states. This is the kind of thing that happens so rarely it's hard (for me on a few hours sleep) to recall the details.



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< Message edited by obvert -- 2/22/2017 9:51:00 AM >


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/22/2017 12:15:42 PM   
DW

 

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You didn't mention whether or not you've informed John of the nature of his mistake.

If you haven't, it might be a good idea to do so in order to prevent him from getting the feeling the game gods are conspiring against him.

Also, it might be a good idea also inform him of the mistake you made that you related above, to show him that the sword cuts both ways.

Personally, and I hope I'm not being unfair, but my biggest fear is John dropping out of the game due to an unsustainable level of frustration on his part.



< Message edited by DW -- 2/22/2017 12:24:16 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/22/2017 12:27:20 PM   
Canoerebel


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I sent this to John yesterday:

"I can tell you what happened.

"Troops in strategic mode will move into a contested hex but will not move out of a contested hex.

"You troops didn't have time to complete the transition into strategic mode before my advance unit arrived. 

"Most of your bigger units (18th Div., etc.) arrived at Rangoon three turns ago.  It would take two or three turns for them to complete the transition into strategic mode.  But on their second turn, my advance unit arrived, preventing them from leaving.  So there's no way any of them could actually leave the hex."

Your idea to tell him about my own recent carrier-upgrade foible is a good one.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/22/2017 7:27:29 PM   
Canoerebel


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5/10/44

A good and productive day though not without some kind of glitch (either me or the computer) in Burma:

1. Allied air missions against Manila's airfield pretty successful.
2. Allied amphibious moves in Philippines underway without mishap, though troop loading will take a day or two more. D-Day at the first target is probably three days away.
3. Allied armies in Burma have fully advanced into Rangoon and Pegu. However, attacks at both places got scrubbed. Probably this was something I did or didn't do but I swear and swear I had units properly set up to attack.
4. Tomorrow, barring user error or AI hijinks, big armies will attack in both cities.

See map for details.




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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/22/2017 7:34:03 PM   
Canoerebel


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John seems pretty highly frustrated by the game right now, though I feel confident that he'll soldier on. He'll probably do so in bits and spurts until he gets jazzed by a planned ambush or attack or has a sexy new toy (carriers, advanced aircraft) to throw into the fray.

He's really done well in playing since we resumed in October, or whenever it was. He flipped turns at a much higher rate when he was engaged in big things, but that's just human nature. Of late, he's slowed down, partly for real life reasons and partly due to morale. That's understandable. But I give him a lot of credit for trying and working at it despite the hits his navy has taken. (I've felt all along that crippling his navy was the fast way to victory, both on the board and in the mind.)

A tip of the cap to John.


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/22/2017 7:44:13 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

John seems pretty highly frustrated by the game right now, though I feel confident that he'll soldier on.



He is sitting pretty....don't know why he would be frustrated. In May of 44, Tokyo was a smoking ruin in my previous game with Hokkaido totally lost, the Marianas, and Bangkok was falling, my air force in ruins, blah, blah, blah...

Doesn't he get some kind of goofy George in this game? Does he get 4eb, the Rita too? Or is it the Liz?


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/22/2017 7:46:49 PM   
Canoerebel


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One reason I feel sanguine about the pace of the game is that we've reached a point where it's possible to judge who was right in evaluating things, especially in the darks days of the Sumatra debacle.

At that time, some readers (probably mostly followers of John's AAR) contended that Sumatra was a crippling blow to the Allied war effort. I contended that no matter what happened, the Allies were in great shape. I made that claim just before we took the two-year sabbatical in September 2013. The claim was met with howls of derision from certain folks.

I was right. Mostly that's because I knew my opponent. Sumatra wasn't guaranteed to turn out so well, but it did. And I was confident that would be the case.

I wouldn't have been as confident if I hadn't known my opponent or if I was playing an opponent who had a record of tough defense in depth. Sumatra could've been - and probably should've been - a debacle. But John got distracted by the vortex and turned Sumatra into an affair that paid off handsomely for the Allies. (At the same time, Sumatra was very nearly a victory by itself - more fighters or perhaps another 200k supply would've made the difference - as it was, the Allies held out for eight months.)

Some ardent John supports made some pretty rough comments during the course of the game. I recall one, in particular, as the Marshalls campaign was winding down. I had just shifted everything from the Indian Ocean to the Pacific, managed the very successful Aleutians campaign and was doing very well in the Marshalls campaign. Both of those involved the loss of next to no ships. But, one day, Japanese aircraft sank CA Portland. A reader of John's AAR showed up in mine for the first and only time and wrote, "You seem to be off your game."

I was like, "What? Everything's going incredibly well. Where are you coming from."

Readers of John's AAR are privy to his successes and his vision of things, so they get a skewed understanding of the game.

John plays incredibly aggressively and hard. He gets away with that in '41 and '42 when he has overwhelming numbers. But he's burning the candle at both ends, expending precious resources far, far faster than he can afford to do so. His navy, in this game, is the prime example. He used it so often and so hard that it evaporated. Had one or the other of us walked away from the game in June '43, he wouldn't have paid for his style of play. But by '44 he's bankrupt and it's apparent to everyone. You can't play at a non-sustainable rate if you're in for the long haul.

The game isn't over. I can and will continue to make mistakes. Luck will become fickle. John gets lots of sexy aircraft. His fighters are already tough on my 4EB. So there's a great deal of game to be played yet.

But the Allies are indeed in the desired position to prosecute the war efficiently as we reach the summer of '44.




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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/22/2017 7:51:48 PM   
Canoerebel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

He is sitting pretty....don't know why he would be frustrated. In May of 44, Tokyo was a smoking ruin in my previous game with Hokkaido totally lost, the Marianas, and Bangkok was falling, my air force in ruins, blah, blah, blah...

Doesn't he get some kind of goofy George in this game? Does he get 4eb, the Rita too? Or is it the Liz?


John thinks he should be able to stand toe-to-toe with the Allies in mid '44 (and, for all I know, he thinks he ought to be able to do so in '45). He thinks he ought to be able to prevail in the ground war in Burma right now. So he didn't retreat and got chewed alive. He thinks Burma was a permanent part of the Empire and its a kick to his gut to lose it.

The same thing with every other place on the map.

He just doesn't grasp the concept of the phased, fighting withdrawal. The Japanese player has to know how and when to retire. General Lee, General Longstreet and General Johnston would know. General Hood wouldn't.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/22/2017 7:54:53 PM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I ran the same idea through my head and came to the same conclusions.

I've made similar miscalculations in the game, most recently not understanding that my carriers couldn't upgrade at the port I had selected. That little miscalculation played a big part in what happened at Celebes (my carriers ended up going much further away and thus couldn't respond to the emergency as I had originally envisioned).

That was just one of many misunderstandings/miscalculations I've made. I still think the biggest two were: a fundamental lack of understanding of what the Allied fighter replacement rates were (that played a big role in Sumatra) and granting John the "no strat bombing until 1944" house rule.



Sometimes I cut some slack. But do overs are done when a bug causes some sort of disaster not to correct bad game play. Unless, you both have a habit of doing this. Come on now, you two have both got a decade of playing experience behind you. There is not much excuse for missing this one though. You can't strat move out of a shared hex. We all know that.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/22/2017 7:56:39 PM   
Grfin Zeppelin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I ran the same idea through my head and came to the same conclusions.

I've made similar miscalculations in the game, most recently not understanding that my carriers couldn't upgrade at the port I had selected. That little miscalculation played a big part in what happened at Celebes (my carriers ended up going much further away and thus couldn't respond to the emergency as I had originally envisioned).

That was just one of many misunderstandings/miscalculations I've made. I still think the biggest two were: a fundamental lack of understanding of what the Allied fighter replacement rates were (that played a big role in Sumatra) and granting John the "no strat bombing until 1944" house rule.



Sometimes I cut some slack. But do overs are done when a bug causes some sort of disaster not to correct bad game play. Unless, you both have a habit of doing this. Come on now, you two have both got a decade of playing experience behind you. There is not much excuse for missing this one though. You can't strat move out of a shared hex. We all know that.

I didnt knew that to be honest.

_____________________________



(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 9208
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/22/2017 8:02:48 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
I like the General Hood comparison. But Lee was awfully aggressive on the defense, and I don't think the comparison holds. And if that is Sidney Albert, I don't think that comparison holds either but is better than Lee. Longstreet definitely holds though. Ole Pete.




(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 9209
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 2/22/2017 8:04:01 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
Well, I meant Joe Johnson but misspelled his last name.

Lee could be aggressive on defense, but he also knew when and how to retreat, as he showed in '64.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 9210
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