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RE: Postpone Netplay Development

 
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RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/20/2017 1:25:14 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I personally agree first all the Optionals should have been coded at least, before to get into Netplay proper. But a company may have different priorities than what logic may dictate.

On the other hand I moved on to play WiF via Vassal - lots of extra math and tracking to do (thanksfully it's someone else keeping the gearing limits, etc) but at this stage we're also using the draft of the next rules publicly disclosed on the ADG webpage.

(in reply to Jagdtiger14)
Post #: 31
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/20/2017 8:21:36 PM   
AllenK


Posts: 7259
Joined: 2/17/2014
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: davidachamberlain


quote:

ORIGINAL: AllenK

I agree Netplay is needed but it will never work properly if the basic game mechanics remain bugged.

It makes no logical sense to carry on trying to build the roof when the walls aren't structurally sound. It makes even less sense if the effort to put the roof on keeps breaking chunks off the walls.

Allen, I think because you were not looking at this product several months ago you missed the fact that before any work started on substantial testing of Netplay, the known unresolved defects were few. The initial work was all about making sure that Solitair and Head-to-Head errors was resolved.

Your analogy is totally out of place. We are a year past that point now where the Netplay testing is going stronger after a couple years of focusing exclusively on Solitaire and Head-to-Head.

If anything, the additional testing for Netplay has uncovered the new problems (that affect both Netplay and Solitaire) and some fixes to those problems re-introduced previously fixed solitaire problems.

If only addressing the solitaire problems was still the priority (as it was early last year), the job would be considered mostly done with just minor tweaks.

Dave


I've been looking at and persevering with this product since Feb 2014, so please get your facts straight.

So, there were few known defects, only needing minor tweaks, in Solitaire when it was decided to work on Netplay. The length of the change logs, which presumably reflect work on "known defects", somewhat undermines this statement. However, be that as it may, given the list of known defects with Solitaire mode appears to have considerably lengthened, you have nicely confirmed my point that work on Netplay has increased the problems and undone some of the work that was done to fix the bugs in Solitaire. Thank you, as you have also confirmed the analogy you thought to be so totally out of place to be fundamentally correct. The effort to put the roof on is knocking chunks out of the patches that were put on the walls to get them to at least stand upright.

While Rome burned, the Emperor fiddled and the Minister for Propaganda assured everyone they were all living in the best of all possible worlds. Everything was going exactly to the divine plan and those who couldn't see this were simply misguided heretics at fault for their lack of faith and wanting someone to put out the fires!


(in reply to davidachamberlain)
Post #: 32
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/21/2017 1:25:25 AM   
Viktor_Kormel_slith


Posts: 372
Joined: 11/14/2013
Status: offline 		I feel I´m in a middle point in this topic, by one side I understand the interest of Matrix in the development of netplaying, probably the game is stuck (on selling terms) and netplaying could bring new customers. By other side, I agree with some of you, the code changes is causing fatal and regression bugs that makes difficult to play in solitaire and hotseat modes (the modes I usually play). From my point of view, there is not a good way to proceed with the scarce resources of the proyect, so I accept the way that they have chosen while development keep going onwards. Not withstanding, I have decided not to use betas versions in my games. Unfortunetely it mean that I can´t help to detect bugs in last versions. I think this is a problem for development, there is no many players or play testers. Summaring, ok to work with netplaying before other things (optionals and thinks like so..)but I think the first priority must to be a correct basic game, specially when new o regression bugs appear in the new versions.

_____________________________

Sorry, for my bad english! "Wiffing" since 1990 to the tomb!

(in reply to AllenK)
Post #: 33
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/21/2017 7:33:21 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Well I have sent a PM to Erik, asking for a comment from Matrix on this, so let's see what comes of that.

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(in reply to AllenK)
Post #: 34
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/21/2017 8:21:39 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AllenK

...


Basically, what we have to assume is that Steve has called for more beta testers, since the last versions are called beta, but anyway the state of the NetPlay is a Beta state as well.

If you are testing betas, you are subject to possible regressions. And considering the pace at which bug patching has been evolving before, it will not become solved anytime soon. We'll need to develope even more patience.

I understand your frustration, which I feel myself; yours may be bigger if you like solo mode or PBEM (which I don't) and you feel you are going back in these...

All I can say is that Steve is constantly pushed forward by players who will only play netplay or AI (like myself) and for whom the game without this is of no use, and slowed down by others who will use or can use PBEM or enjoy solitaire and want it to work perfectly before moving on. It's impossible to satisfy everyone and Steve has finally the last (and only) word, he likes to listen but even among the customers opinions are divided.

Your opinion is as good as anyone else's, but your post and other posts, apart from being valuable reporting bugs have a certain flavour to discourage others from testing, which I think is not fair, but anyway is probably unnecessary considering the fatal errors of the game (in my case I could not pass the deployment in several trials).

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 3/21/2017 8:24:21 AM >

(in reply to AllenK)
Post #: 35
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/21/2017 8:37:44 AM   
Sir Roland


Posts: 13
Joined: 9/10/2003
From: Earth
Status: offline 		Here we are years later and the damn convoy is still creating chaos from order. Convoy ROUTing.
My favorite system to hate on. It can make a player go batshit kray kray coming up with the perfect ROUTe.
Only to find out the AI ignores your input. Paid full price. Have yet to get my money's worth.
Not the recommendation Matrix wants to hear. Nevertheless it is my opinion paid in full.

I'd like to read a reply that promises more than lip service. The last official patch was released Jan 2016.
How about spending a month or 2 and updating the solitaire version. You know. That version we can play with ourselves.
Or maybe even with someone via TeamViewer.

Yep. I'm adding my comment because more voices are needed to get some attention for this path.
Then we can go back into our man caves and fiddle with the game. But for this moment in time.
I'll help be a voice for some change.

Lets get this donkey show some help to be that fine solitaire game it was advertised to be.

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Post #: 36
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/21/2017 8:41:38 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline 		What you are proposing is that those who don't enjoy Solitaire (¡!) or PBEM will have to wait even more time to play the game. At the moment, what we have got is nothing.

We paid our money for the game too. Just sayin'...

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 3/21/2017 8:42:38 AM >

(in reply to Sir Roland)
Post #: 37
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/21/2017 8:49:29 AM   
Sir Roland


Posts: 13
Joined: 9/10/2003
From: Earth
Status: offline 		I am proposing that a stable solitaire game that was advertised is not what we have at the moment.
Time is not relevant. It has not been for years. If time was important. More resources would be allocated.
As harsh as it may sound. Yes, AI wait. NetPlay has a workaround. Its called TeamViewer, the phone, email.

Its a donkey show that needs more time no matter the path. Have a beer if it helps.


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Post #: 38
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/21/2017 9:00:14 AM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sir Roland

I am proposing that a stable solitaire game that was advertised is not what we have at the moment.
Time is not relevant. It has not been for years. If time was important. More resources would be allocated.
As harsh as it may sound. Yes, AI wait. NetPlay has a workaround. Its called TeamViewer, the phone, email.

Its a donkey show that needs more time no matter the path. Have a beer if it helps.



Solitary satisfies (I guess) 10% of the buyers, and that only because it's a game initially for hardcore wargarmers and we are more used to having to resign to this. And even most of these would prefer Netplay if available.

NetPlay has not workaround, First Netplay is not working, second TeamViewer means giving control of your computer to unknown persons, and anyway it's not the way the NetPlay is supposed to work, it's just a patch some players use, in despair for not having a real NetPlay.

If the solitaire is not working, guess what happens with NetPlay, which has all the problems of the NetGaming, plus the Solitaire unresolved, plus the regressions... and it was advertised as well.

Beer is available to every side, you can have one too.


< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 3/21/2017 9:10:03 AM >

(in reply to Sir Roland)
Post #: 39
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/21/2017 9:11:19 AM   
Sir Roland


Posts: 13
Joined: 9/10/2003
From: Earth
Status: offline 		The game as a solitaire version has not had an official patch since Jan 2016. Waiting longer to enjoy an AI or NetPlay will be just another sacrifice.
One WE will all make.
As harsh as it sounds. Yes they can wait a couple months.
Why not?

This donkey show is moving about as fast as one could expect with no additional resources and few dedicated playtesters.
Had Matrix come clean in the beginning and advertised the game as a beta. It might have had a more favorable rollout. Maybe even more long term play testers.
That went out the window long ago.

I don't expect all players to agree on a path. Should we just "suck it up", like we have been since 2016? Patch wise.

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Post #: 40
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/21/2017 3:37:16 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14
Concerning Netplay, if I cant keep a wireless connection to it, then its fairly useless. Maybe I need a better router, or maybe Matrix/Slitherine do not have the necessary infrastructure. Even if MWiF Netplay was completely bug free and working 100%, if it means I have to pay more money just to play this game (router upgrade, or deal with cables running across the floor...which my wife already vetoed anyway) then forget Netplay. I don't see it as Steve's fault. Matrix is a terrible company for many reasons. I think they are forcing Netplay. I would rather see optionals, scenarios, and a manual convoy system added to 2.3.4


Just one note on this specific point - our server handles the initial matchmaking and connects the two of you up, but after that it's your connection and your opponent's connection and your computers that matter. The communications at that point are direct and not going through any of our hardware.

Regards,

- Erik



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For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to Jagdtiger14)
Post #: 41
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/21/2017 3:48:47 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		I've read through all the feedback here and I appreciate it. I'll be discussing all this with Steve in a few hours as well.

A few points in the meantime:

- It is time for another "state of the game" post and I apologize for keeping you waiting. Steve and I are in regular communication, but we were hopeful that we'd be able to get to a stable netplay release before now and were continuing the cycle of testing and iterating with the expectation that we were closer to a stable release than it turned out.

- An official update is also overdue, I agree. Again, we were hoping that we'd have one based on the netplay betas at this point, but there have been more iterations than we'd hoped for. Until we have a stable release, it doesn't make sense to release a new official update. I'll see if we can get something out sooner, perhaps with a slight change of plans, without compromising the progress we've made on netplay.

- Netplay is a shared priority, not just driven by Matrix, but it is certainly a great concern and priority for us - primarily because we expected it to be working soon after release, as did Steve and the community. As you may recall from previous "state of the game" updates, we did focus on the solitaire game for a while to try to make sure it was in a good state before putting the focus back on netplay. Netplay, unfortunately, has taken more time, more focus and caused more regression issues than we would have hoped. Both we and Steve see the solitaire game and netplay both as extremely important. I hear the feedback from gamers who feel we have spent too much time on netplay and would like solitaire to get another pass sooner. I don't want to compromise netplay progress as we have come a long way, but I will see what we can do.

Thank you all for your patience and feedback, we do appreciate very much your continued engagement in the game and your communication to us.

Regards,

- Erik


< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 3/21/2017 3:49:02 PM >

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 42
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/21/2017 5:39:34 PM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 4personalbusiness
PS, from my perspective as a PBEM-only player, without MWIF (such that it is), I would still be pushing around counters and maniacally crunching numbers on Cyberboard like I did back in the olden days of 2002 when I came back to the game. OK, I probably would switch to VASSAL, but still...


That is how the game is/was played since its inception - along with an infinite number of other wargames. Right now I'm playing OCS' Sicily II and my brain is not melting from the need to "crunch numbers" and actually move cardboard counters around a paper map.

True, you can make mistakes, and you need friends to be available if you do not want to play solo. These are the two things that MWIF was supposed to fix. Fact of the matter is: the WiF game I'm organising now will use my physical copy, we will be able to choose (just to give an example) between all the optional rules, and if we make a mistake we will "fix" it by remembering what the correct rule is before moving on; no need to wait for "patches" (which will break other functions anyway).

How do you think that people on BGG are playing WiF?

Anyway, there is another thing to consider re: Netplay. People who play alone are bound to play according to a certain "frame of mind" even when they do experiment or try to think out of the loop. This leads to parts of the game which are never properly tested because, maybe, not every solo player chooses a specific option/tactic.

If Netplay helps people to play against each other, then the willingness to "fire all the cylinders", to attempt unexpected stunts, and the very fact that two players are testing the game coming from different "schools" will help to shed light on seldom tested parts of the code.

Does this mean that a lot of games need to be started and then abandoned when the next dire bug comes up? Yes. But this is already happening anyway - what would be increased is the tempo of the stress test. This worked beautifully for finding bugs in both in the original WitP and then in WitP: AE - this is why exp. the latter is so polished.

My 2 cents anyway.


_____________________________

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"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to 4personalbusiness)
Post #: 43
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/21/2017 7:38:57 PM   
AllenK


Posts: 7259
Joined: 2/17/2014
From: England
Status: offline 		Erik, thanks for your reply.

I understand Netplay is important to Matrix. It is only when MWiF, with its current coded set of optional rules and scenarios, is playable in Solitaire, Hot-seat and Netplay modes, will it be the game as advertised and sold on release. That has to be high on the list of priorities and I agree with others who comment that in this online age, a game that doesn't have this feature is likely to limit its customer base. It's for this reason I can see why it was chosen over developing the remaining optional rules and half-map scenarios and/or a working AI mode.

Had the Beta's only been introducing changes for Netplay, we wouldn't have bothered updating until we needed Netplay. However, they also contained fixes for problems with the basic game, which we wanted in order to resolve problems we were getting. The frustration came when important features like manual convoy routing no longer worked (it hadn't been trouble free in 2.2.0), we couldn't repair factories and, the real game killer, couldn't get past CW set-up without MadEx's. You can't even begin to play a game you can't set up.

It was these plus other equally frustrated posts on Tech Support, reporting problems in other areas that had either previously worked or previously been fixed, that prompted me to post this thread. The game just seemed to be going backwards from a state where people could play and enjoy it (if not in the way they would choose) to one where nobody could unless they stuck to a pretty ancient (and still flawed) official release.

I'm sure all and especially Steve are equally as frustrated and hope a way can soon be found to get the lost Solitaire functionality back so the necessary development on Netplay can carry on.


(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 44
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/21/2017 7:45:47 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Hi everyone,

A quick update now while we put together a longer "state of the game" news post for the future.

Steve and I had a conference today and agreed to put the primary development focus back on fixing and stabilizing solitaire play for the next couple of weeks with the aim of getting a new official update with improved solitaire play out sooner rather than later. We had always planned to do another pass on any new bugs once Netplay was stable, but we will now do that sooner as well. You can expect to see that as a public beta in the next week or two, then as an official version once we confirm it is a net improvement. As soon as that's been released, focus will return to Netplay with the goal of aiming for a stable Netplay release by sometime in May.

The entire update process throughout both pre and post-release has been two steps forward, one step back and it's only through continued iterations and testing that we can find those steps back and fix them while we head for a solid version.

For those of you currently playing in a game together and encountering bugs, the best thing you could do to help Steve is to make sure that any bug reports you've submitted or posted include save files and as much detail as possible on how to reproduce. He is very motivated to get the solitaire issues resolved over the next couple of weeks. As long as he has reports for the issues you've encountered, the odds are good he can fix them.

Regards,

- Erik


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to AllenK)
Post #: 45
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/21/2017 7:49:54 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Erik/Steve

Many, many thanks for this. This is most welcome news indeed .

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 46
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/21/2017 8:49:35 PM   
AllenK


Posts: 7259
Joined: 2/17/2014
From: England
Status: offline 		Erik/Steve,

Thank you and much appreciated.

As always, I will continue to post problems to Tech Support with as much detail and a game save in order to assist with the development.

Look forward to the new Beta/Official upgrade soon.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 47
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/21/2017 9:05:13 PM   
Sir Roland


Posts: 13
Joined: 9/10/2003
From: Earth
Status: offline 		I'd also like to add my voice in thanks to Erik/Steve, for the prompt reply.

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Post #: 48
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/21/2017 9:55:52 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Fixing Solitaire Bugs - Priorities

[page 1]


Here are the next (in priority) two problem areas I have on my Master Task List (aside from NetPlay bugs): Peace and Production Planning. This was last updated at the beginning of March, despite the date of March 21st at the top of the page.

The source of the bug reports can be identified by the MTL number I assigned to it. So, 2363 was from a beta tester. 6631 from from an email I received (i.e., a Mad Except error). 7027 was from a post in Tech Support. Within each source, lower numbers mean the bug report is older.

Note that this is a fragment of my Master Task List. Not shown are the sections before Partisans (e.g., Air, Land, and Naval Operations) and those after Quit (e.g., Supply, Vichy).

The color of the MTL number reflects whether there is a saved game available or not; those colored green have an associated saved game. They may or may not have accompanying instructions on how to reproduce the bug. The numbers following the section label [Peace (30 - 17)] indicate the number of bug in the section and the number which have associated saved games.

The colored text describing the bugs highlights for me what I believe I should look into next. There's no real difference between red and violet. I have not confirmed that all of these are actual bugs! Specifically, upon investigation I have often found that the older emailed Mad Except reports (3000 to 6999 and 9000 to 9999) have already been fixed.

I haven't highlighted/colored the Production Planning bugs yet (except for one). I would normally do that upon clearing the highlighted Peace bugs and moving on to Production Planning. This is all rather dynamic and not a rigorous process for setting priorities. For example, if a new report in Tech Support is similar to one already on my list, I will usually try to fix them both.

If you look at the details of the bugs in Peace, you will find that most of them at rare occurrences (e.g., liberation of Yugoslavia while Vichy units are present).

As should be obvious, I prefer to work on bugs that have saved games where I can reproduce the bug - or prove to myself that it no longer exists.







Attachment (1)

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Post #: 49
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/21/2017 10:23:42 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Fixing Solitaire Bugs - Priorities

[page 2]

Perhaps I should have shown this page first. It is part of my spreadsheet for tracking bug reports from Tech Support. It's roughly the still outstanding bugs reported in the first ~2 months of 2017. Later today, I'll go through bugs reported in Tech Support since March 7th and bring this list up-to-date. I should note here that most bugs related to NetPlay don't make this spreadsheet. I have a separate text file where I record all the NetPlay bugs, which I have been giving a pretty high priority in February and March.

The items with an X before their Category, and colored green, have been fixed. The one in yellow (with an O suffix) I have deemed Opaque. I'm not sure whether it is or is not a bug but I do not want to dismiss it out of hand. On the other hand, I have investigated it as far as possible with the information I currently have. So it lingers in the spreadsheet and I read it over again from time to time.

You can see that I have fixed some of the February bug reports and investigated others, even though they are for Solitaire and Head-to-head play. Indeed, I have taken a first crack at all these items, trying to reproduce them and seeing if there is any obvious fix that I can make. Most of these entries have not been transferred to my Master Task List. Whenever possible I prefer to tackle new bugs from Tech Support immediately after I place them in this spreadsheet. About half the time (8 out of 19 in this case) I'll move them to the Fixed section of this spreadsheet and never make an entry in my Master Task List.

Actually, I don't move the individual line entries. I simply do a sort on the Category. That places all those beginning with X at the bottom of the page, but still sorted by category.

So, in summary, I work on newly reported bug in Tech Support every 2 to 3 weeks and process them all. Those that I can fix relatively quickly, I do. If the bug is fatal, then I do my best to fix those too. If that effort does not solve the problem, then the bug is moved to the Master Task List and I process those by 'section' (e.g., Peace). There are two other streams of bug reports: from emails and from beta testers. I also go through each of those every 2 to 3 weeks and handle them the same way.

Such us the view from my chair, ...




Attachment (1)

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 50
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/22/2017 1:08:50 PM   
Centuur


Posts: 8802
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline 		I have currently three netplay games running. In all three we can't proceed. I would like to see a timetable with a date on which Steve will resume fixing netplay bugs. This decision looks to be a slap in the face of the people who are participating in the Netplay Challenge...

You can't ask for volunteers and than simply discard what they have been doing in the last couple of week...

< Message edited by Centuur -- 3/22/2017 1:09:53 PM >

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Post #: 51
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/22/2017 2:08:18 PM   
CanInf

 

Posts: 275
Joined: 4/8/2014
Status: offline 		In a few months I look forward to restarting my netplay game! In the meantime, I was wondering what this means for hotseat. I suspect there should not be a lot of issues ensuring fixes that work for solitaire are equally effective for hotseat.

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 52
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/22/2017 4:00:13 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		some thoughts

fascinating bug list, thank you for posting Steve

War in the Pacific was mentioned, which makes me ask - how do other Matrix games handle things like the players using WiFi with their routers, and the ever evolving hardware ecosystem and thus inevitably evolving connection protocols? I learned via trading hobbyist type live music recordings how to do things like "port forwarding" but average computer users have no interest in that kind of thing. I would hope that some of the issues involved could be solved by Matrix with modular solutions from their other programmers who have to deal with the same thing.

The whole idea of Netplay seems to be asking Steve to put on another Wizard's hat, and he has already mastered wearing several of those.

Perhaps Netplay and World in Flames could be looked at from a Software Engineering point of view, more than a simple the-whole-game-has-to-be-playable-with-2-connected-computers. And by that I mean coming up with a framework for how the game will actually be played by 2-6 people all in locations remote from each other. I still maintain that I don't need or want to be waiting around with my computer and my time while my opponent does something like move every unit on the Eastern Front. Ditto for being the American player in 1940. If the hard coding of the rules can't be leveraged to the advantage of the player experience, I see no point in moving beyond VASSAL/Cyberboard.

So perhaps Netplay functionality can be prioritized to work perfectly during naval movement and any and all combat phases, which have so many interaction points. Non-interactive phases could be handled while some players are offline and Netplay / the Sliterine server would simply make sure the movement decisions and political and economic decisions are transmitted to the other players when they need them.

Perhaps that is asking for whole new features, I'm not sure. But I thought some of the NetPlay bugs were occasionally reports of units not moving correctly on other players' screens, or freezes etc. and perhaps focusing on NetPlay combat could keep development of every style of play moving forward, dunno.

(in reply to CanInf)
Post #: 53
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/22/2017 4:15:28 PM   
brian brian

 

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		But to me, the biggest issue is not which "mode" of play is worked on when, is one that has problems across every "mode" - the Convoy system. I don't play MWiF because of this issue. That should ring pretty loudly somewhere.

MWiF is not intended to be a World in Flames "kit" to facilitate players doing whatever they want with the counters. Programming a no rules, counter&map management only mode would have taken time away from coding the rules. Fair enough I guess.

And yet some players hoped for an "automatic" convoy system because managing the Commonwealth Empire's economy is not a simple thing to walk in to when one starts playing WiF. Simultaneously, the final portion of the project - an AI opponent that can play Global War - has to be able to manage convoy lines by itself. So in some ways, a feature "crept" into the project, and in other ways it is just a feature that isn't truly needed, yet.

This is not a simple thing. It requires writing a routing algorithm to handle moving things (resources) across two separate networks (multiple, unconnected areas of land connected by a system of Sea Zones, both of which have routing constraints such as the Panama Canal or enemy ZoCs), with hard constraints beyond simple capacity limits at choke points - the Trade Agreements. Doing this would probably make for an excellent course assignment at a fairly high level of computer programming education.

I think what is needed is a do-over of the whole system. First, let the players manually set their convoy routes, click-click-click through the Sea Zones. Then check for legality against the movement restrictions and the Trade Agreements. If anything is in violation, do not allow the player to complete production. And usually in RaW 7 Oil Rules, the first thing you do is re-organize your oil units, then figure out everything else.

Without this, I just don't have any interest in playing this game. WiF simulates the constraints and frustrations of a Major Power's penultimate leader. I hardly want the program to add to these limits, in any way. If I can't control my own counters, I will use other software that allows me to do so. And that's the bottom line.

(in reply to brian brian)
Post #: 54
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/22/2017 5:31:22 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

I have currently three netplay games running. In all three we can't proceed. I would like to see a timetable with a date on which Steve will resume fixing netplay bugs. This decision looks to be a slap in the face of the people who are participating in the Netplay Challenge...

You can't ask for volunteers and than simply discard what they have been doing in the last couple of week...
warspite1

Centuur I think this is a little unfair.

Firstly, if you look at the timescale Erik has suggested, then you will see that those proposing this course of action have only been given a short amount of time - your pain should therefore be short. Don't get me wrong, I am grateful for anything after such a long wait, in order to get another stable official version that actually (hopefully) gets rid of the convoy/production and remaining supply bugs.

Secondly, you ask for an actual timetable, but when has anybody - on either side of the fence - ever been issued with a timetable on this project, which by its very nature has proven unwilling to conform to timescales.

Thirdly, you have three netplay games on hold - well we have four non-netplay games on hold. This is exactly why some of us were calling for a re-evaluation of the flight path in the first place.

Fourthly, 'you can't ask for volunteers and then simply discard what they have been doing' - well I could counter that with 'you can't ask people to pay good money for a game and then expect them to be either beta testers or no longer be able to play the game pending another official version which shows no sign of turning up after 14 months'. Well that is the reality hence the request to make this slight - and it is a slight - deviation in flight path.


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(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 55
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/22/2017 5:43:06 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

I have currently three netplay games running. In all three we can't proceed. I would like to see a timetable with a date on which Steve will resume fixing netplay bugs. This decision looks to be a slap in the face of the people who are participating in the Netplay Challenge...

You can't ask for volunteers and than simply discard what they have been doing in the last couple of week...

I am not abandoning work on NetPlay. It is just being delayed for a week or so. I should be able to make another Hot Patch available tomorrow (Thursday Hawaii time) that will enable you to continue your NetPlay games in progress. It took me a solid week to fix #s 17 and 18 below - which were solely for NetPlay.

===

Changes Since Version 2.4.1.0
(as of March 4, 2017)

6. March 10, 2017 - Fixed a problem with displayed Activity Limits were the US was not being shown.

7. March 12, 2017 - For NetPlay, made some changes to advance the subphase after the attacking player decides whether to use Snow units in an attack.

8. March 12, 2017 - For NetPlay, added some checks so a player can no longer change the actions and destinations of his opponent’s resources (unless they are being received in a trade agreement).

9. March 14, 2017 - Added code to prevent placing partisans in a non-frozen lake hex. This change also prevents having too many partisans to place. That is, the number of partisan units is never more than the number that have hexes in which they can arrive.

10. March 14, 2017 - Added a check for overstacking when the weather phase ends.

11. March 16, 2017 - Fixed a couple of problems with correcting overstacked hexes at the end of the Return To Base phases.

12. March 16, 2017 - For NetPlay, fixed several problems with correcting overstacked hexes. The way the program now processes multiple overstacked hexes is that each player gets to correct the overstacked hexes in which he has units. He may have to process them for several major powers. Once all players have processed all their overstacked hexes, the end of phase completes and the game advances to the next phase.

13. March 17, 2017 - For NetPlay, added code to report on US Entry markers’ draws, moves, and removals to non-US players.

14. March 17, 2017 - For NetPlay, added code to report when the US player decides to not execute any US Entry Options in a turn.

15. March 18, 2017 - For NetPlay, added a check to avoid a spurious fatal error when the game is restored at the subphase Choose Aligned Minor’s controlling major power.

16. March 19, 2017 - Fixed a cosmetic problem where the informative message about territories being converted to minor countries after their parent country is conquered had the names of the conquered and converted countries reversed.

17. March 19, 2017 - For NetPlay, fixed a problem where building new convoys, pilots, forts, offensive chits, and factories could have mismatched unit numbers on different computers. This would cause all kinds of problems, such as moving a convoy on one computer could cause a factory to be moved instead on the other computer.

18. March 20, 2017 - For NetPlay, fixed a problem with Production where the Axis computer was reinitializing the Production phase in the middle of reinitializing the Production phase. This was causing the Axis computer to set all resources coming from neutral minor countries to be set to Idle.

19. March 20, 2017 - Changed the order in which the program attempts to find actions, destinations, and paths for resources during Production Planning, so the player’s most recent instructions are attempted before trying to use the actions and paths from the previous turn. The sequence is now: Override settings, Default settings, Most Recent settings, Last Turn settings, and, finally, try to find a new route. This should correct some of the problems with the program ignoring recent changes and reverting to the actions, destinations, and paths used previously.

20. March 21, 2017 - On the Spend Surprise Points form, corrected the number of ships in a naval combat to exclude those that are aborting.

21. March 21, 2017 - On the Spend Surprise Points form, corrected the number of Air-to-Sea factors in a naval air combat to reflect the weather conditions in the sea area (e.g., halved during Rain).


_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 56
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/22/2017 7:12:31 PM   
peskpesk


Posts: 2347
Joined: 7/17/2003
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline 		Nice start on fixes! My five cents on what to fix: Work on bugs that have saved games(both netplay and Solitair/Head to head) and a correct bug report (so you can reproduce the bug) and make fixes faster, take game hindering bugs first. This way all testers/players also learns the importance of a correct bug report with a save game, if they want it fixed fast.

< Message edited by peskpesk -- 3/22/2017 7:13:10 PM >

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(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 57
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/22/2017 10:27:41 PM   
rkr1958


Posts: 23483
Joined: 5/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
19. March 20, 2017 - Changed the order in which the program attempts to find actions, destinations, and paths for resources during Production Planning, so the player’s most recent instructions are attempted before trying to use the actions and paths from the previous turn. The sequence is now: Override settings, Default settings, Most Recent settings, Last Turn settings, and, finally, try to find a new route. This should correct some of the problems with the program ignoring recent changes and reverting to the actions, destinations, and paths used previously.
I'm really anxious to see the impact of this change and hopeful that this will give us the ability to manual set convoy routes, one again, that aren't immediately overrided by the program.


_____________________________

Ronnie

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 58
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/23/2017 1:37:43 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur
I have currently three netplay games running. In all three we can't proceed. I would like to see a timetable with a date on which Steve will resume fixing netplay bugs. This decision looks to be a slap in the face of the people who are participating in the Netplay Challenge...

You can't ask for volunteers and than simply discard what they have been doing in the last couple of week...


This is not a slap in the face to anyone, at least it's not intended that way. We expect to resume the Netplay focus in a couple of weeks and I'm sure Steve will also be able to hit a few Netplay bugs during that time, this is not a permanent change in direction.

Regards,

- Erik



_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 59
RE: Postpone Netplay Development - 3/23/2017 1:57:27 PM   
michaelbaldur


Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline
remember, solitaire is the foundation of netplay, so any fixes in solitaire is also a fix in netplay.



_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 60
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