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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the South Pacific >> Game over?

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Game over? - 5/6/2003 11:52:23 PM

Feinder

Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline

Some of you had been following the progress of Knavey's and my PBEM game on the AAR board. Knavey is about to resign, because it appears that he's not going to be able to recover the initiative any time soon, and things will get dramatically worse quite quickly. He's also been working gawd-awful hours of late (and had less time to play), that also serves to disrupt one's ability to maintain continuity with stratagy. The actual losses on both sides have NOT been that dramatic, but considering the overall stratigic situation, I'd have to agree that he's about to get clobbered.

It doesn't bother me that he has asked to resign, this not meant to be a finger-pointing situation. But since this is our first PBEM game, we're wondering where the appropriate "resignation point is" (I've seen some cases where IJN will resign if within 500pts. Again, I don't care about the resignation, I'll just tally one in the win column, and we'll start a new game.

Do you continue the following game or not?

Scen #19.
Knavey IJN
Feinder USN
Both commitment levels to 120%
Sub doctrine "on"
Date : late Nov 1942
(AF/Port)

What I know of Knavey's situation :

Solomons :
Controls all bases in solomons, but only substantional AFs are at Lunga(4/2) and Shortland (4/5). Also Lunga and Tulagi are just big bomb craters. Their AFs and Ports are utterly worthless.

New Britian : Rabaul and Gasmata and friends are fully intact.

New Guinea :
Lae (4/?) - Fully operational
Buna (2/?) - One big bomb crater.
Gili-Gili(4/4) - One very deep bomb crater (port and AF are completely demolished).

He's got about 5 regiments "trapped" at each of Gili-Gili and Lunga. He can't get them off,because I've whacked the AFs and Ports, so he can't load them onto transports, and his AF can't provide cover for any sort of retreat.

His -ONLY- servicable AF for level bombers is Rabaul (and maybe Lae). But I haven't seen his Bettys out in force for about 3 weeks.

I don't know his overall land-based air strength, but he seems to complain about it alot, so I'm guessing it's been heavily mauled.

He has "only" lost the Shok and Soryu, however, I -know- his CV air squadrons have been decimated, and several other his of CVs (Akagi, Kaga, Zhikaku and Hiryu) have been pretty well banged , and will likely be sent to the yards indefinately, or held at Truk for dire emergencies. Dunno about the status of Junyo and those other carriers.

No BB losses.

A few CA's damaged, but none sunk.

About 15 DDs sunk, plus sundy PCs etc.

Loss of about 1/3 of all his freighters, including about 1/2 of his total transport capacity

I believe he's got about 3 CVs of Junyo size, and about 6 BBs.

Leads by 2000 points.

Me on the other hand...

Feinder controls
Austrailia, all cities (9/9)

Hebrides:
Luganville and Noumea (9/9)
All other bases, including Neva at (4/0)

Solomons:
Base on San Christobal (the island w/in range of Lunga) at (4/1)

New Guinea :
Port Moroesby(7/5)

PM is heavily fortified and well supplied. Contains about 150 P-40s, and 150 level bombers (including 60+ B-17s). I can suppress any base in New Guinea at will.

Sand Cristobal has about 40 'cats, 30 P38s, 40 P-39s (anti-shipping), and 60 SBDs (anti-whatever), and 20 light-bombers. It is fully capable of supporting an invasion of Lunga or Tulagi (I can swap out the bombers for more fighters if necessary).

Neva has about 100 B-26s, which can "suppress" Lunga and Tulagi daily.

Essentially, I can dominate all of the slot up to (not including Shortland).

And PM is now able to dominate anything around her.

I have not lost any carriers. I have none presently, but have York and Hornet on the way (arrive < 10 days), with full airgroups. The other 5 (Sara, Wasp, Lex, Essex, Enterprise) are due within 2 months with full AAA upgrades.

I have 3 BBs, and a large collection of CA.

Again, no major fleet units sunk. Several shot-up, but nothing problematic.

Loss of about 15 DDs, plus additional smaller vessals.

Loss of about 1/5 of freighters, and 1/5 total shipping capacity.

Ground forces are in position and ready to retake bases in the Solomons. I'm thinking of skipping Lunga because it has so many troops there, but there's nothing stopping me (except his sizable surface forces) from beginning to retake the solomons. I can keep Lunga isolated and pummelled well enough while conducting ops around the solomons.

I'm hesitant to conduct an amphib operation at GG, because he's got ALOT of guys there also. I'd skip it too, and go for Buna, but my TF would be exposed to enemy air as it rounded the horn. Would be safer to go overland to Buna, but I'm not sure I want to commit the troops to do that (transports are mostly marshalled in the Hebrides anyways for the counter-offensive in the Solomons, and moving 2 Divs to PM would cause a shortage). I'm thinking to just keep NG "suppressed" until I have more troops.

Also (after about 3 game-weeks of prep), sent a massive strike (about 80 B-17s + 20 Hudsons) vs. Rabaul, and caught a major surface fleet in port (no carriers). Don't know the damage (no combat.txt file yet), but he reports about 30 hits on various vessals. My whole stratagy thus far has been to HURT his ships. Most of his major fleet units (CL, CA, BB, CV, CVL) are -damaged- and either unservable or unadavisable to risk in a stand-up confrontation with my (largly intact) Navy.

Franky, I think I'm going to clobber him in the next 2 months (and he does too evidently), despite his large point lead.

This has been a learning experience for both of us. So with this situation, is it worth continuing? or should we start over?

-F-

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me

Post #: 1

- 5/7/2003 12:15:26 AM

Drex

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline

Absolutely he should continue. He's still 2000 pts ahead and there is a good chance you may be too confident and make a mistake. He still has a number of carriers(albiet damaged but may still be able to fly planes) and he has enough BBs to provide good bombardment/interdiction TFs. When/if you catch up to him in points then Knavey could consider surrender. The problem with surrendering too soon (and I have been guilty of this also) is that you don't get to use the planes,ship types that arrive later. One needs experience in using these new classes. Plus it is just plain challenging to fight from an inferior position. I am behind 6300 pts against Soulblazer but at least I've stopped his Juggernaut and have some initiative available. Even my opponent is getting equipment he's never had a chance to use. I would like to stick it out to the very end of the game even though its very doubtful I will make up 6300 pts(its june, 1943)

(in reply to Feinder)

Post #: 2

- 5/7/2003 12:28:55 AM

CapAndGown

Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline

Since you control PM and Irau still, and Knavey is only up by 2000 points and it is still very early in the game (Nov. 1942) I would say that barring an enormous mistake on your part (like sending all your fleet carriers out with the fighter groups stood down :eek: ) you have already won. In fact, at this point, you could make mistake after mistake and still win. Pretty much at this point, Knavey is a dead man walking.

(in reply to Feinder)

Post #: 3

Drex, you killed Argounaut? - 5/7/2003 12:32:34 AM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Drex
[B]

I am behind 6300 pts against Soulblazer but at least I've stopped his Juggernaut and have some initiative available.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Drex, you killed Argounaut?

Please tell us about this wet dream of every Japanese player (and I am one of those)... :-)

Leo "Apollo11"

(in reply to Feinder)

Post #: 4

- 5/7/2003 1:21:30 AM

Drex

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline

Sorry Apollo11, but you lost me. Who is Argonaut? I know the allied sub but it sounds like you are referring to someone. I assure you I have not killed anyone, in fact it is me who is being killed.

(in reply to Feinder)

Post #: 5

Re: Drex, you killed Argounaut? - 5/7/2003 1:24:40 AM

Drex

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Apollo11
[B]Hi all,

Drex, you killed Argounaut?

Please tell us about this wet dream of every Japanese player (and I am one of those)... :-)

Leo "Apollo11" [/B][/QUOTE] I see now, you think I am referring to Argonaut the sub. Actually juggernaut means a war machine- in this case- Soulblazer who is kicking my butt. In fact he sunk my argonaut(I am allies), so ask him how he did it.

(in reply to Feinder)

Post #: 6

I see... - 5/7/2003 4:35:24 AM

Apollo11

Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline

Hi all,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Drex
[B]I see now, you think I am referring to Argonaut the sub. Actually juggernaut means a war machine- in this case- Soulblazer who is kicking my butt. In fact he sunk my argonaut(I am allies), so ask him how he did it. [/B][/QUOTE]

I see...

I was too anxious (bloody "Argounaut")... :-)

Leo "Apollo11"

(in reply to Feinder)

Post #: 7

- 5/7/2003 5:38:03 AM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline

It i highly dependant on how badly he is as far as troops go. You seem to be happy with respects to how you have his major troops in the bag so it is quite possible that he really has lost the game at this point. If you did not commit major troops to defending the places he now owns and still have all your divisions pretty much at full strength, he is cooked. If you took major losses along the way (that do not get replaced until 200+ turns into the game) then he is not too badly off and still has a month of so to contest Luganville and go for an auto-victory attempt.

Based on the date and the score (being this is 19 not 17, and he's got a decent pilot training program in play), you have not won the game yet. If this was 17, I'd say you had it in the bag. While his CV air might be decimated, they rebuild pretty quickly in 19 and he only needs to take Luganville to win ...

You might want to simply call it a draw and start a fresh 2.30 game and reverse sides. The Allied side favours the player who is busier with life :D Japan needs non-stop dedication and focus to the goal of crushing the Allies before they can react effectively.

(in reply to Feinder)

Post #: 8

- 5/7/2003 10:50:12 AM

Knavey

Posts: 3052
Joined: 9/12/2002
From: Valrico, Florida
Status: offline

Here is the sitrep from my side...and my reasons for calling it. After all, I don't feel the need to drag it out forever like the Japs did in real life.

We had 3 patches over the course of this game. Personally, I think the nembers got "borked" somewhere in the mesh, but thats just opinion.

We had three very large CV engagments early on which resulted in teh complete destruction of the IJN air groups every time. Difficult to recover from that. Only lost 2 CVs in the process, but each engagement should have been on equal footing. Bad luck on my part I suppose, but you dont recover from those type of losses as IJN.

I didn't have a feel for IJN ground forces and their command structure, so currently they are committed haphazardly across the map with very little cohesion. Thats my fault for not doing research early on.

GG is mine, but impossible to do anything with except tie up the forces that are there. Allied air can turn the place to mush anytime they want this late in the game. Lunga is the same way, I have a decent strength force there, but it can be shut down on a whim. I don't think Feinder would try to take it, but we also have very little experience on how fast defending forces roll over after they are cut off from supply for a few months.

Which brings me to allied air...everyones gripe...well IJN everyone at least.

The last bombing run Feinder put what looked like every bomber he had plus a few UFOs over Rabaul. I hadn't really been keeping up with the latest debates over here, and had left a couple of BBs in there refueling (I am one that uses Rabaul as a base, I know the debate over this now) and he scored about 50 bomb hits on those groups in the harbor. I didn't even realize this was possible, but it looks like it was something that occurred last patch.

Morale in my airgroups is suffering even though I have had most of them in TRUK for the last month. My land based air took forever to get morale up, but most of my fighters seem stuck at 20-30, and although we took a very long time between recent turns, I am reasonably sure that they had been there for some time. Not sure what was up with morale, but even if I moved all my LBA to Rabaul, without fighters they are uselss right now.

I still have a few CVs in theatre, but the big ones are hurt pretty hard with 30ish system damage. Can only commit them to stop something that I think they can win at, as they will be sunk if they are caught by almost anything with bombs. Those baby carriers that the IJN has are pretty much crap.

I am keeping my eye on his returning vessels and I know the upgrades on AAA that he has coming pretty much make every ship the allies have like a porcupine. Pretty funny that I have yet to see an IJN upgrade. I did a little study on this before the last patch and NEVER once saw an IJN upgrade in AAA.

AAA and radar for the IJN is definately NOT in favor. I have done a bit of research on IJN radar in response to the IJNs lack of it, and found many references to radar systems and upgrades that are not occurring. Makes it extremely unfair when US gets upgrades but IJN doesn't just because there is not as much supporting documentation. Started to put together a decent argument for Matrix to look over for implemention, but RL commitments got in the way. Will have to revisist this now that I have some more time on my hands. Perhaps we can shift the wind just a little bit so its not blowing so hard. More IJN vessels than most of you think actually had radar.

I suppose most of it was a lack of enthusiasm after the huge losses suffered early on that seemed a bit ahistorical. The thought had crossed my mind to load everything into the ships and sail south for one massive confrontation. Feinder has built up a bunch of airfields that would (if taken) give an instant victory. But that is gaming the system as well.

Talked to Feinder tonight and he has permission to "peek". Will be interesting to hear what he says after looking at the disposition of forces on the IJN side. I am sure he will think that I am in a better position than I think that I am.

I agree that my position is not lost, but I just don't feel the need to play until the only thing left is Truk.

Chalk this up as a learning experience for our first PBEM game. How many of you played your first game this long?

Oh well, back to AoW and stalking those LIBERALS...sorry Chit is not included in that label.

_____________________________

x-Nuc twidget
CVN-71
USN 87-93
"Going slow in the fast direction"

(in reply to Feinder)

Post #: 9

- 5/7/2003 10:58:44 AM

Chiteng

Posts: 7666
Joined: 2/20/2001
From: Raleigh,nc,usa
Status: offline

If he cant take PM the game is over. It is that simple.

_____________________________

�It is clear that the individual who persecutes a man, his brother, because he is not of the same opinion, is a monster.�

Voltaire

'For those with faith, no proof is needed. For those without faith, no proof is enough'

French Priest

"Statistic

(in reply to Feinder)

Post #: 10

- 5/7/2003 11:08:13 AM

Fred98

Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline

If you choose to end this game then start another. UV is a great game.

I agree the Japanese side is almost impossible to win in ALL of the scenarios.

I have created a scenario, where I took an existing scenario "The Turning Point" I think its called - a 3 month scenario. I removed ALL carriers and ALL BBs.

It is now a very interesting scenario.

(in reply to Feinder)

Post #: 11

- 5/7/2003 11:11:46 AM

Drex

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Knavey
[B]Here is the sitrep from my side...and my reasons for calling it. After all, I don't feel the need to drag it out forever like the Japs did in real life.

We had 3 patches over the course of this game. Personally, I think the nembers got "borked" somewhere in the mesh, but thats just opinion.

We had three very large CV engagments early on which resulted in teh complete destruction of the IJN air groups every time. Difficult to recover from that. Only lost 2 CVs in the process, but each engagement should have been on equal footing. Bad luck on my part I suppose, but you dont recover from those type of losses as IJN.

I didn't have a feel for IJN ground forces and their command structure, so currently they are committed haphazardly across the map with very little cohesion. Thats my fault for not doing research early on.

GG is mine, but impossible to do anything with except tie up the forces that are there. Allied air can turn the place to mush anytime they want this late in the game. Lunga is the same way, I have a decent strength force there, but it can be shut down on a whim. I don't think Feinder would try to take it, but we also have very little experience on how fast defending forces roll over after they are cut off from supply for a few months.

Which brings me to allied air...everyones gripe...well IJN everyone at least.

The last bombing run Feinder put what looked like every bomber he had plus a few UFOs over Rabaul. I hadn't really been keeping up with the latest debates over here, and had left a couple of BBs in there refueling (I am one that uses Rabaul as a base, I know the debate over this now) and he scored about 50 bomb hits on those groups in the harbor. I didn't even realize this was possible, but it looks like it was something that occurred last patch.

Morale in my airgroups is suffering even though I have had most of them in TRUK for the last month. My land based air took forever to get morale up, but most of my fighters seem stuck at 20-30, and although we took a very long time between recent turns, I am reasonably sure that they had been there for some time. Not sure what was up with morale, but even if I moved all my LBA to Rabaul, without fighters they are uselss right now.

I still have a few CVs in theatre, but the big ones are hurt pretty hard with 30ish system damage. Can only commit them to stop something that I think they can win at, as they will be sunk if they are caught by almost anything with bombs. Those baby carriers that the IJN has are pretty much crap.

I am keeping my eye on his returning vessels and I know the upgrades on AAA that he has coming pretty much make every ship the allies have like a porcupine. Pretty funny that I have yet to see an IJN upgrade. I did a little study on this before the last patch and NEVER once saw an IJN upgrade in AAA.

AAA and radar for the IJN is definately NOT in favor. I have done a bit of research on IJN radar in response to the IJNs lack of it, and found many references to radar systems and upgrades that are not occurring. Makes it extremely unfair when US gets upgrades but IJN doesn't just because there is not as much supporting documentation. Started to put together a decent argument for Matrix to look over for implemention, but RL commitments got in the way. Will have to revisist this now that I have some more time on my hands. Perhaps we can shift the wind just a little bit so its not blowing so hard. More IJN vessels than most of you think actually had radar.

I suppose most of it was a lack of enthusiasm after the huge losses suffered early on that seemed a bit ahistorical. The thought had crossed my mind to load everything into the ships and sail south for one massive confrontation. Feinder has built up a bunch of airfields that would (if taken) give an instant victory. But that is gaming the system as well.

Talked to Feinder tonight and he has permission to "peek". Will be interesting to hear what he says after looking at the disposition of forces on the IJN side. I am sure he will think that I am in a better position than I think that I am.

I agree that my position is not lost, but I just don't feel the need to play until the only thing left is Truk.

Chalk this up as a learning experience for our first PBEM game. How many of you played your first game this long?

Oh well, back to AoW and stalking those LIBERALS...sorry Chit is not included in that label. [/B][/QUOTE] Keep fighting, You are in a better position than I am. Tthere is always something to learn from this and you are a ways from Truk being the ony base left. Think like the Japanese.

(in reply to Feinder)

Post #: 12

- 5/7/2003 1:25:11 PM

Knavey

Posts: 3052
Joined: 9/12/2002
From: Valrico, Florida
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Drex
[B]Keep fighting, You are in a better position than I am. Tthere is always something to learn from this and you are a ways from Truk being the ony base left. Think like the Japanese. [/B][/QUOTE]

Thats NOT going to happen...think like them. HA!

I wouldn't have started something with no hope of winning.

Nah, we are going to call it...hopefully Feinder writes me a good obit in the Sibling Rivalry post.

We will have another go at it soon. But RL took me out of the picture for a month (really hard to remember why stuff is where its at when you have to go a week between turns). Feinder is now out of action for a week or so, but I will take a page from his book next time. I will be taking and keeping notes.

_____________________________

x-Nuc twidget
CVN-71
USN 87-93
"Going slow in the fast direction"

(in reply to Feinder)

Post #: 13