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RE: 1st Marine Div?? - 6/24/2017 12:06:26 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Right so according to Frank:

The 1st Marine Division left New Zealand on the 22nd July 1942

It arrived off Fiji on the 26th and a rehearsal was carried out.

The fleet then set sail for Guadalcanal on the 31st July.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 31
RE: 1st Marine Div?? - 6/24/2017 1:44:44 AM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		From what I've read the rehearsal off Fiji was a disaster but then the initial landing on Guadalcanal was carried out (against very lite resistance) just fine. Guess it took about two weeks to figure out how to do it right. The game seems to require an awful long time to train for a specific objective: is this actually realistic?

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 32
RE: 1st Marine Div?? - 6/24/2017 2:08:02 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		You can attack with 0% planning, an unopposed landing suffers losses from people seeing a landing craft for the first time,into swamp, being pounded by your own Navy and your Air Support attacking your own Navy, on the wrong island.




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Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

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Post #: 33
RE: 1st Marine Div?? - 6/24/2017 2:31:49 AM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		Not that I really want to change the algorithms used by the game but exactly how much experience did the IJA gain in amphibious warfare in their "pre-war" war against China?



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Post #: 34
RE: 1st Marine Div?? - 6/24/2017 5:33:45 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		SFA

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Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

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Post #: 35
RE: 1st Marine Div?? - 6/24/2017 6:30:49 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

From what I've read the rehearsal off Fiji was a disaster but then the initial landing on Guadalcanal was carried out (against very lite resistance) just fine. Guess it took about two weeks to figure out how to do it right. The game seems to require an awful long time to train for a specific objective: is this actually realistic?

warspite1

Yes, it did go ‘just fine’ but no, I don’t think 'it took just 2 weeks to figure out how to do it right':

a) The weather. The convoy – seemingly one being sent to Australia – changed course north south of Rennell Island to approach the target. As it did so the weather (heavy clouds and rain) gave protection from snooping Japanese reconnaissance aircraft flying from Rabaul and Gavatu. Then, as the invasion shipping rounded Cape Esperance in the early hours of 7th August the skies cleared. This allowed good visibility for shore bombardment and the destruction of the Japanese Yokohama Air Group – Mavis and Rufes.

b) On Guadalcanal Vandergrift was not impressed. Referring to the 1st Bn, 5th Marines. “As with the 1st Marines, though with less excuse, control soon broke down……..Regimental Commanders lost contact with their battalions; battalions groped for each other and their companies….Perhaps fortunately the leathernecks encountered no Japanese”.

c) “Trouble of a different character was also brewing back on the beach. Grounded landing craft littered the surf, while just beyond, and sometimes in the water as the tide rose, rested a jumble of boxes, crates and barrels…..this scene became a subject over which a great deal of ink was shed as to the respective responsibilities of the Navy and the Marines…inability of the overwhelmed Marine short party…..the situation became chaotic…the commander of the transports directed each ship to detach fifteen sailors……but this was not nearly enough…sight of idle marines cracking coconuts, swimming and lounging around enraged transport officers”.

d) “Despite the coast watcher’s advanced warning, a breakdown in the complex flying schedule….left only 12 instead of 24 Wildcats over the landing area…an erroneous air vector sent a division of four Wildcats….away from the air battle altogether. Fortunately the Japanese only succeeded in hitting one destroyer”.

e) “….The available supplies lay piled up on Beach Red, 3 miles from the new perimeter, and totally exposed to land, sea or air attack. Fortunately for the marines, no Japanese commander seized this opportunity”.

f) “Within the 1st Marine Division these first operations exposed deficiencies in planning, patrolling, coordination, communications, control and fire discipline…already some leaders had been tried and found wanting from platoon to regimental level”.

You can only beat the enemy in front of you and as Frank states, “Overall there was much to be proud of in the manner in which the green division had successfully executed its difficult mission.”

It does not take much in war for things to go pear-shaped. Marine difficulties were entirely understandable given their lack of experience. Fortunately the Japanese response in the first vital few days was not all it could have been and mistakes, whether understandable or avoidable, were not punished.



_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 36
RE: 1st Marine Div?? - 6/24/2017 11:54:23 AM   
US87891

 

Posts: 422
Joined: 1/2/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
All I was wondering was how it, and the 3rd Defence Battalion got to Guadalcanal i.e. where had they been based earlier that year?

Edit: Just seen the edit. Right so the paratroopers were in Fiji and would have needed to be picked up en route. 1 down - 1 to go

Elements of 1st Marine Division departed Norfolk, for New Zealand, in May 1942. Other elements, including HHQ and company A, 1st Marine Parachute Battalion, departed Norfolk in a second echelon, for New Zealand, June 10, 1944. Remaining elements, including companies B and C, 1st Marine Parachute Battalion, departed San Francisco, for New Zealand, June 19. All elements 1st Marine Parachute Battalion (361 total officers and enlisted, not including USN personnel) in New Zealand July 11. Battalion embarked USS Heywood, July 18, in Koro Island convoy.

The AA group of 3rd Marine Defense Battalion departed Midway Island for Pearl Harbor, June 16. HHQ, AA and MG groups and service battery, 3rd Marine Defense Battalion, departed Pearl Harbor July 12 for rendezvous at sea with 1st Marine Division. Seacoast artillery group remained Hawaii to re-equip. SA group departed Pearl Harbor for Guadalcanal, arriving August 23.

Matt
[ed] Elements of 3d departed Pearl Harbor July 22, not July 12. Arthritic fingers.
[ed] Norfolk second echelon departed June 10, 1942, not 1944. Arthritic fingers again.

< Message edited by US87891 -- 6/25/2017 1:42:34 PM >

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Post #: 37
RE: 1st Marine Div?? - 6/24/2017 1:36:56 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline
I seem to recall reading that a unit gains experience when doing a amphibious landing. So will that unit gain experience when doing a amphibious landing at a friendly base or a empty enemy base? I will try to test this.

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Post #: 38
RE: 1st Marine Div?? - 6/24/2017 3:28:14 PM   
bobdina

 

Posts: 50
Joined: 6/6/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Further on the Division/Regiment idea:

Divisions are not permanent entities. They are created as required from available regiments and usually have some additional equipment like artillery and AA, and maybe a recon battalion and combat engineer battalion. Any of these elements can be swapped out if required.

Regiments are "permanent" in the sense that their colors and history remain even if the Regiment is inactivated and has no troops, or becomes a militia formation to do some training and keep the traditions alive. When activated they fill out their ranks and indoctrinate the troops in the Regiment's history and traditions to build pride of belonging. The troops identify with their Regiment, not the Division they happen to be assigned to.

You will notice some Regiments in the game that never get assigned to a Division. They are usually called "Separate" or "Independent" after the regimental name.


In the U.S.,Army Divisions have been permanent since WW-1 . For the Marines since at least WW-2. These divisions are self contained with the support you mentioned however sometimes when deploying you will get attached units.

< Message edited by bobdina -- 6/24/2017 3:29:54 PM >

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Post #: 39
RE: 1st Marine Div?? - 6/24/2017 5:12:15 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bobdina

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Further on the Division/Regiment idea:

Divisions are not permanent entities. They are created as required from available regiments and usually have some additional equipment like artillery and AA, and maybe a recon battalion and combat engineer battalion. Any of these elements can be swapped out if required.

Regiments are "permanent" in the sense that their colors and history remain even if the Regiment is inactivated and has no troops, or becomes a militia formation to do some training and keep the traditions alive. When activated they fill out their ranks and indoctrinate the troops in the Regiment's history and traditions to build pride of belonging. The troops identify with their Regiment, not the Division they happen to be assigned to.

You will notice some Regiments in the game that never get assigned to a Division. They are usually called "Separate" or "Independent" after the regimental name.


In the U.S.,Army Divisions have been permanent since WW-1 . For the Marines since at least WW-2. These divisions are self contained with the support you mentioned however sometimes when deploying you will get attached units.

I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean that the Divisions are not in constant existence, but that their composition can change continually. When a regiment gets beat up in battle and needs to be withdrawn, another can be attached to take its place. The Divisional structure is like a skeleton on which things are hung.
Similarly, a Regimental Combat Team (RCT) is like a mini-division - a regiment with attached support arms.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to bobdina)
Post #: 40
RE: 1st Marine Div?? - 6/25/2017 12:56:51 AM   
Reg


Posts: 2787
Joined: 5/26/2000
From: NSW, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I take my info from the TV Series and book "The Pacific", which showed the Marines in Australia both before and after Guadalcanal - but that may have been only one regiment.


Remember that "The Pacific" followed the stories of three characters and had input from several different novels. It wouldn't be hard to lose track of who was in which unit and where....

The First Regiment of the 1st Marine Division were quartered at Camp Murphy [Melbourne Cricket Ground] for several months in early to mid-1943.

U.S. Forces at the MCG


_____________________________

Cheers,
Reg.

(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

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Post #: 41
RE: 1st Marine Div?? - 6/25/2017 1:49:27 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I take my info from the TV Series and book "The Pacific", which showed the Marines in Australia both before and after Guadalcanal - but that may have been only one regiment.


Remember that "The Pacific" followed the stories of three characters and had input from several different novels. It wouldn't be hard to lose track of who was in which unit and where....

The First Regiment of the 1st Marine Division were quartered at Camp Murphy [Melbourne Cricket Ground] for several months in early to mid-1943.

U.S. Forces at the MCG


Been some time since I watched the series, so it seems I remembered the MCG sequence ... out of sequence! I plead old age and wine!




Attachment (1)

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Reg)
Post #: 42
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