Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: All things Football (soccer) related

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> RE: All things Football (soccer) related Page: <<   < prev  89 90 [91] 92 93   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/1/2017 10:09:14 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Really like the new Spurs kit (although not so keen on the shield for the cockerel). Always a fan of the less-is-more school of thought and Spurs shirts should be White and not white with all sorts of slashes and strips and stuff all over the place. This shirt is nice and simple. Like it. Hate to say it but for the same reasons the Chelsea kit is good too .

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4655982/Spurs-officially-unveil-kits-2017-18-season.html

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2701
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/2/2017 6:44:35 AM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

As for Rangers - they were at home and they were playing a team from Luxembourg - I don't think it matters what the score is after two legs. The first leg alone is sufficiently depressing.


First leg is indeed depressing but that will only be a fun fact if they advance. If not, then it will be a scandal of massive proportions for the team.

And it is not all that fun either to go to the Faroe Islands and play a 0-0 draw. But that will soon be forgotten if they advance...

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2702
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/2/2017 6:47:14 AM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Really like the new Spurs kit (although not so keen on the shield for the cockerel). Always a fan of the less-is-more school of thought and Spurs shirts should be White and not white with all sorts of slashes and strips and stuff all over the place. This shirt is nice and simple. Like it. Hate to say it but for the same reasons the Chelsea kit is good too .

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4655982/Spurs-officially-unveil-kits-2017-18-season.html

I can understand why you like the new kit. It looks very nice. Both modern and classic at the same time.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2703
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/2/2017 7:00:14 AM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		This is a nice kit as well.







Attachment (2)

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 2704
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/2/2017 7:03:07 AM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		Although I really like the new Europa League kit.

Both the dark home kit and the white away kit. So I really, really would like them to advance into the cup this year.

Although, currently, that seems a far away dream.







Attachment (2)

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 2705
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/2/2017 7:19:35 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		You have two different kits; one for domestic and one for Europa? The domestic kit looks black - is it?

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 2706
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/2/2017 7:28:45 AM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

You have two different kits; one for domestic and one for Europa? The domestic kit looks black - is it?

This year we have two different kits.

Our main colours are a dark blue and yellow. But back in the days the dark blue was a tough colour so it was often replaced with black. Nowdays we are more known as a black and yellow. And white became our away colour. So the dark blue is a nice touch in a shirt that our main sponsor asked to be made without logos to celebrate our fans.

Another nice touch from our main sponsor is that their logo is not shown on the main kit either. Instead they show a non-profit organization that support research against heart and lung disease.

Edit: Today our colours are colours are black and yellow. With white as secondary kit. But you can see our original colour in our badge.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Orm -- 7/2/2017 7:35:20 AM >

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2707
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/2/2017 7:32:17 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		That's a shame. I like the blue and white kits. Simple and elegant.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 2708
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/4/2017 9:13:36 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Ah.. equilibrium is restored. The world makes sense once more.

England lose a semi-final penalty shoot out to the Germans.....


and,just so as not to disturb the established order its only taken 14 minutes and:





warspite1

Depressing. Rangers hammer a bunch of Luxembourgers at home 1-0....

...while for St Johnstone it got worse - conceding a second away goal


It is the end result, after both matches has been played, that counts.

Or, at least, that is what I currently tell myself.
warspite1

Well I don't think St Johnstone are going to go to Lithuania and get 2 goals.

As for Rangers - they were at home and they were playing a team from Luxembourg - I don't think it matters what the score is after two legs. The first leg alone is sufficiently depressing.

warspite1

Wow......


_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2709
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/4/2017 10:08:41 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


....

Wow......



oh, yes? even I expected them to get into the next round - they must have exhausted themselves parading around Glasgow last saturday (ahem)

_____________________________


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2710
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/5/2017 8:04:37 AM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 2711
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/5/2017 8:04:54 AM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 2712
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/5/2017 8:05:42 AM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		And the manager is not yet sacked?

Or all the players on the transfer list?



_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 2713
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/5/2017 9:31:15 AM   
VPaulus

 

Posts: 3630
Joined: 6/23/2011
From: Portugal
Status: offline 		I think not all players are still available.
Glasgow hired one of the central defenders of the Portuguese national team, and I'm pretty sure he wasn't available for these matches as he was playing for Portugal.
Probably more players will come... The season just started.

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 2714
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/5/2017 10:51:28 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VPaulus

I think not all players are still available.
Glasgow hired one of the central defenders of the Portuguese national team, and I'm pretty sure he wasn't available for these matches as he was playing for Portugal.
Probably more players will come... The season just started.


true but they also lost to the 4th placed team in the Luxembourg league, so yes some explanations but still this is *ahem* causing considerable amusement in Glasgow (well outside Govan anyway).

To add to Rangers' pain, they've just lost in court about the tax case that put them into financial meltdown in the first place. Since the judge has directly blamed the SFA for its poor monitoring of its regulatory regime this could get very tricky very quickly. Depends if any of the other SPL sides are minded to legally contest one or the other of their '10 in a row' league wins. I'd suspect Celtic won't but both Aberdeen and Hearts missed out in that era and might be minded to go for financial compensation.

My instinct is it depends on if the other clubs have financial skeletons hanging around that they really do not want to wish having raised in any court proceedings.

The other risk is HMRC now go for the reformed club for its old tax debts. Quite possibly as this article seems a pretty fair outline of the issues and judgement:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15391010.Rangers__big_tax_case___Supreme_court_backs_HMRC_over_tax_avoidance_scheme_at_Ibrox/

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

And the manager is not yet sacked?

Or all the players on the transfer list?




Given the above, they may well be facing a second bankruptcy. Even if they escape that, I suspect it will undermine any attempt to rebuld the current side and they may well have to sell anyone that they can get a fee for.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 7/5/2017 10:55:44 AM >

_____________________________


(in reply to VPaulus)
Post #: 2715
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/5/2017 11:23:47 AM   
VPaulus

 

Posts: 3630
Joined: 6/23/2011
From: Portugal
Status: offline 		Poor Rangers...
It must be terrible for the fans.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 2716
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/5/2017 1:18:58 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VPaulus

Poor Rangers...
It must be terrible for the fans.


at one level I agree. For many what happened between 1987 and 1998 must been ancient history and the destroy the club today because of that seems unfair.

But the reality of the 2 main court cases between 2012 and today is it is clear that Rangers cheated to those titles - and in those years that was the only route to the old European Cup etc. That they use tax avoidance as opposed to match fixing is not really relevant.

Now I have little sympathy for Celtic fans who are making a lot of noise. But the nature of Scottish football is that for clubs like Aberdeen or Hearts (who both came second in that era) is it is incredibly hard to build a good team and practically impossible to hold it together. It takes a rare combination of a group of players emerging from their own youth teams and a well above average manager - we really are talking about once in a generation combinations of luck and judgement. So fans from those sides have every reason to feel very aggrieved at this.

edit: as an aside the same tax structure was used by a number Rugby clubs - both Union and League - so this is going to have wider implications. No one is sure if other UK football clubs did it but some might have.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 7/5/2017 1:26:41 PM >

_____________________________


(in reply to VPaulus)
Post #: 2717
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/5/2017 2:08:16 PM   
VPaulus

 

Posts: 3630
Joined: 6/23/2011
From: Portugal
Status: offline 		I can see your point and I agree.
For the Scottish league, it's quite bad. Celtic is now the dominant team with no contestant.
Celtic fans might be happy now, but this is not good for the team.
One can say that this is basically what's happening in Germany, but it's not quite so. The difference between the teams are not so big.

< Message edited by VPaulus -- 7/5/2017 2:09:22 PM >

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 2718
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/5/2017 4:23:14 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline 		This is where a salary cap might help. Limiting all teams to the same monetary amount might reduce the temptation to gain an advantage by cheating. Although human greed is limitless...

(in reply to VPaulus)
Post #: 2719
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/5/2017 4:55:07 PM   
VPaulus

 

Posts: 3630
Joined: 6/23/2011
From: Portugal
Status: offline 		That's what they are doing in NBA, but still, two teams seem to be "miles away" from the other ones...

(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 2720
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/5/2017 5:25:32 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

This is where a salary cap might help. Limiting all teams to the same monetary amount might reduce the temptation to gain an advantage by cheating. Although human greed is limitless...


I do not think a salary cap will help at all. Except, maybe, make the players earn less and the club owners more.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 2721
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/5/2017 6:05:48 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

This is where a salary cap might help. Limiting all teams to the same monetary amount might reduce the temptation to gain an advantage by cheating. Although human greed is limitless...



In this particular case the trick was to avoid paying tax on what has now been deemed to have been wages. So the notional wage is not really the problem.

More generally the demographics of Scotland distorts the situation. The total population is about 5.3m, of those 1.3m live in/around Glasgow and another 1m live in a cluster of medium sized towns in the wider region. Edinburgh has a population of around 400,000 (and another 200,000 in nearby towns). So in effect the two big Glasgow teams can draw on roughly 50% of the population (and both also have a lot of supporters from Ireland who regularly come to matches). The result is regular crowds for Rangers and Celtic around 50-60,000 compared to say 20,000 at Hearts (the largest of the two Edinburgh teams) and maybe 15,000 at Aberdeen.

Makes it very hard to find a means to have a balanced league. For a long time we had those two pretty much winning everything but at least there was some sharing. We're now stuck in a situation where Celtic simply win everything as they can match Rangers for match day revenue and top that up with the earnings from European football etc. If this puts Rangers back into a financial crisis (and they have never really recovered from the 2012 fines), then we are stuck with a one team league no matter how you try to constrain expenditure.

_____________________________


(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 2722
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/5/2017 7:06:02 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline 		The salary cap is tied to league revenues, so it goes up when the league prospers. The % is collectively bargained between the owners and the players union. Think of it as revenue sharing. And all teams must spend at least 89% of the salary cap (in the NBA).

It does serve to level the playing field when small market teams are in a league with much larger market teams (think New York and Kansas City).

Some sports (MLB) give visiting teams a portion of gate revenue.

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 2723
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/6/2017 11:38:53 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

The salary cap is tied to league revenues, so it goes up when the league prospers. The % is collectively bargained between the owners and the players union. Think of it as revenue sharing. And all teams must spend at least 89% of the salary cap (in the NBA).

It does serve to level the playing field when small market teams are in a league with much larger market teams (think New York and Kansas City).

Some sports (MLB) give visiting teams a portion of gate revenue.


the problem with league level caps is it only really works in closed systems. So I guess that none of your NBA teams compete in other competitions on a regular basis. But in Europe, for some football teams, they are part of both their national league set up and embedded into various European competitions (ok I know that Scottish clubs tend to exit early, but ). So while there are rules on % of club revenue to salaries etc its harder to frame group rules as teams are parts of more than one group.

I do agree with gate sharing. When that went from English football under pressure from Man Utd and Liverpool in the early 80s it immediately removed a major source of revenue distribution. Scotland followed the year after and that pretty much entrenched the Rangers-Celtic duopoly as gate shares from those games made a huge difference to other sides in the league.

_____________________________


(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 2724
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/6/2017 4:41:48 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

The salary cap is tied to league revenues, so it goes up when the league prospers. The % is collectively bargained between the owners and the players union. Think of it as revenue sharing. And all teams must spend at least 89% of the salary cap (in the NBA).

It does serve to level the playing field when small market teams are in a league with much larger market teams (think New York and Kansas City).

Some sports (MLB) give visiting teams a portion of gate revenue.


the problem with league level caps is it only really works in closed systems. So I guess that none of your NBA teams compete in other competitions on a regular basis. But in Europe, for some football teams, they are part of both their national league set up and embedded into various European competitions (ok I know that Scottish clubs tend to exit early, but ). So while there are rules on % of club revenue to salaries etc its harder to frame group rules as teams are parts of more than one group.

I do agree with gate sharing. When that went from English football under pressure from Man Utd and Liverpool in the early 80s it immediately removed a major source of revenue distribution. Scotland followed the year after and that pretty much entrenched the Rangers-Celtic duopoly as gate shares from those games made a huge difference to other sides in the league.
warspite1

Exactly. You would need to set a salary cap that was fair i.e. it reflected each country's tax regime, standard of living (especially house prices) - and in certain countries (the UK being a prime example) you would need to factor in regional differences!!

As for the duopoly, sadly I don't think anything practicable (that stops holding the big two back in European competition - not that it helped for long) could be done to help. These facts are quite stark and illustrate the problem:

Rangers - 115 (total trophies won)
Celtic - 102
The next highest?
Aberdeen with 19....

The League - the litmus test:
Rangers - 54
Celtic - 48
The next highest?
Three clubs, including the two Edinburgh 'giants' on 4-each....

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 2725
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/6/2017 5:26:04 PM   
VPaulus

 

Posts: 3630
Joined: 6/23/2011
From: Portugal
Status: offline 		This is also the problem that we face in the Portuguese league, although it's not so bad as it's in Scotland, because we have traditionally 3 main teams competing for the title.
These 3 teams just "choke" all the other teams, by controlling "in all aspects" (legally and possible illegally) the league.
For example they buy players, then lend them to the other teams, and then these players can't play against them. This is just a small example of what's happening.
They are always trying new dodgy tricks to perpetuate their power over the others.
The gap seems to be bigger nowadays, because more than ever, money plays an important part, and there's no way that the smaller teams can compete. For example the TV rights are negotiated separately with each team, so the big ones get the biggest chunk.
Then in the end of the season, it's really pathetic to see the two big teams who lost the league to accuse the winner of cheating. The three should be ashamed.

One could say that it's also happening with the Spanish league as well, basically it's either Real Madrid or Barcelona. In the Italian is Juventus versus Milan teams. In France the big team is PSG, although it alternates with other teams from time to time. The German is basically Bayern, Bayern, Bayern, Bayern, B. Dortmund, Bayern, Bayern....

So what we have now... basically is the Premiere league. In spite you have 6 big teams ( I include the spurs ) nowadays, there's always a lot of competition going on. It's a delight to watch a football match in the Premiere league.

< Message edited by VPaulus -- 7/6/2017 10:52:01 PM >

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2726
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/6/2017 9:26:40 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


..

As for the duopoly, sadly I don't think anything practicable (that stops holding the big two back in European competition - not that it helped for long) could be done to help. These facts are quite stark and illustrate the problem:

Rangers - 115 (total trophies won)
Celtic - 102
The next highest?
Aberdeen with 19....

The League - the litmus test:
Rangers - 54
Celtic - 48
The next highest?
Three clubs, including the two Edinburgh 'giants' on 4-each....


In truth, given the skewed demographics of Scotland there is nothing you can do at a fundamental level. Quite simply 20% of the population live in/around Glasgow. Add on both Rangers and Celtic have always drawn a lot of support from Ireland.

add on, a lot of what VPaulus mentions in relation to Portuguese football also applies. Both have cynically levered their relative advantage into absolute advantages. In a way the relative decline of TV money for the SPL has made the ratios worse, as clubs fall back on traditional match day takings then differences in average gates really affects overall budgets.

Good to see that St Johnstone have joined in the overall 'lets get knocked out early' competition. Now its down to Aberdeen and Celtic to see if they can be out before the end of July?


_____________________________


(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2727
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/7/2017 4:48:50 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Yes, well done St Johnstone. Hopes were not high to say the least, and in that regard you did not let the side down .


Back to the bigger picture, where does European football go from here? I can't help but think that (assuming no economic bombshell comes out of left-field) the mega rich clubs simply get richer (Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, PSG, Manchester United + a few hangers on (despite the state of Italian football you can't dismiss AC Milan or Juventus)) and the clamour for a European league will become deafening.

The rumours about a closed shop for these elite clubs refuses to go away sadly....

quote:

So what we have now... basically is the Premiere league. In spite you have 6 big teams ( I include the spurs ) nowadays, there's always a lot of competition going on. It's a delight to watch a football match in the Premiere league.


VP you are not paying attention . You are right - there will be the big 6 in England - Arsenal, Chelsea, Everton, Liverpool, Manchester City and Manchester United. Re Spurs, this season all the good work of the last two seasons evaporates as Spursy implode under the enormity of expectation and playing at Wembley. Recriminations on-field lead to Poch's sacking in February and wholesale transfers out of the sinking ship in January and at the end of the season. Meanwhile, off-field the stadium runs into problems - they used the wrong sand/water/aggregate mix and the structure is declared unsafe and so not available for opening until 2020 when we will be hosting Championship matches.

Remember where you heard it first......

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 2728
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/7/2017 9:32:10 AM   
VPaulus

 

Posts: 3630
Joined: 6/23/2011
From: Portugal
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

The rumours about a closed shop for these elite clubs refuses to go away sadly....


We all know, that's a matter of years. I'm afraid there's no way to escape that.
I believe that's one of the reasons why the three big teams in Portugal have escalated their war between themselves.
Probably there will be a slot available for one Portuguese team for that league.



quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
VP you are not paying attention .

Sorry, but I refuse to admit that Tottenham is not one of the top Premiere teams.
I'm not infected by the pessimistic virus that seem to affect all Spurs fans.
So if you want to add Everton, OK. Then we have seven big teams.

< Message edited by VPaulus -- 7/7/2017 11:20:23 AM >

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2729
RE: All things Football (soccer) related - 7/7/2017 10:56:02 AM   
SamSlitherine

 

Posts: 110
Joined: 2/17/2017
Status: offline 		Footie Football

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 2730
Page:   <<   < prev  89 90 [91] 92 93   next >   >>
All Forums >> [General] >> General Discussion >> RE: All things Football (soccer) related Page: <<   < prev  89 90 [91] 92 93   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

1.625