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Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/8/2017 11:37:50 AM

Chris21wen

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Assuming few enemy fighter at a base you want to take which is better for reducing LCU AV rating? I've read various conflicting comments on this. By rights it should be ground attack but is it?

Post #: 1

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/8/2017 2:30:32 PM

BBfanboy

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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Assuming few enemy fighter at a base you want to take which is better for reducing LCU AV rating? I've read various conflicting comments on this. By rights it should be ground attack but is it?

You have to explain more than that what options you are considering. Naval Bombardment? Fighters Strafing? Low Ground or Ground B? Bombers at 20K to reduce flak losses? AF bombing. City Bombing.

In most cases the answer will be "It depends". What exactly do you have? What are his fort levels? Is time an issue? Is it a coastal hex or island? Is the enemy well supplied or likely to run short quickly? Intel on enemy units like flak and air support?

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Chris21wen)

Post #: 2

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/8/2017 4:59:47 PM

Lokasenna

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If your goal is to reduce enemy raw AV, then you want ground attack. That will damage squads.

If you want to reduce enemy adjusted AV, then you want...well, either. Ground attack will cause disruption as well as burn supply (if there are AA guns that fire at the planes). Airfield attack will burn supply that is not in the unit(s), i.e. is in the base stockpile, as well as burn supply in any units that fire AA guns at the planes.

Ground attack is a more effective method to reduce enemy AV in the immediate future, in my experience. It also has the benefit of burning supplies in the units themselves if all supplies at the base are gone - you can't get airfield supply hits if there is no airfield supply.

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 3

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/8/2017 7:57:03 PM

HansBolter

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The unseen and unreported factors of morale and disruption play a large role in land combat.

You can reduce AV slowly over time by combinations of aerial and land bombardment.

Both serve to keep morale low and disruption high increasing probabilities for moving squads from the able to disabled list.

Both types, and of course sea bombardment, if available will do the following:
� Decrease Morale
� Increase Disruption
� Increase potential for devices to become disabled due to the two factors above
� Aerial bombardment will force supply use if AA is present and not resting
� Land bombardment will force supply use if artillery is present to counter battery fire and not resting
� Both land and air bombardments will disable devices and occasionally destroy some.

The steady daily land and/or air bombardments will perform the softening up necessary to make an attack successful.

The point I am making here is that raw AV is a very poor indicator.

A unit can be carrying a very high raw AV with few disabled squads and still be teetering on the verge of collapse if the able devices have very high disruption and very low morale.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 8/8/2017 7:58:20 PM >

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Post #: 4

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/8/2017 9:59:41 PM

Chris21wen

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From: Cottesmore, Rutland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Assuming few enemy fighter at a base you want to take which is better for reducing LCU AV rating? I've read various conflicting comments on this. By rights it should be ground attack but is it?

You have to explain more than that what options you are considering. Naval Bombardment? Fighters Strafing? Low Ground or Ground B? Bombers at 20K to reduce flak losses? AF bombing. City Bombing.

In most cases the answer will be "It depends". What exactly do you have? What are his fort levels? Is time an issue? Is it a coastal hex or island? Is the enemy well supplied or likely to run short quickly? Intel on enemy units like flak and air support?

Not a specific objective. Generally reducing LCU AV using airpower.

< Message edited by Chris H -- 8/8/2017 10:02:20 PM >

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 5

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/8/2017 10:06:48 PM

John B.

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From: Virginia
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@Hans, is it really true that you can save supply by setting artillery and/or flak to resting? I had no idea.

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Post #: 6

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/8/2017 10:08:38 PM

Chris21wen

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From: Cottesmore, Rutland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

If your goal is to reduce enemy raw AV, then you want ground attack. That will damage squads.

If you want to reduce enemy adjusted AV, then you want...well, either. Ground attack will cause disruption as well as burn supply (if there are AA guns that fire at the planes). Airfield attack will burn supply that is not in the unit(s), i.e. is in the base stockpile, as well as burn supply in any units that fire AA guns at the planes.

Ground attack is a more effective method to reduce enemy AV in the immediate future, in my experience. It also has the benefit of burning supplies in the units themselves if all supplies at the base are gone - you can't get airfield supply hits if there is no airfield supply.

Glad to know I'm doing it right. Wish I could find the post(s) that said it made no difference but it was a while ago.

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 7

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/9/2017 12:59:28 AM

crsutton

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Field attacks if you want to eat up supply. It will drop morale as well. Once you are pretty sure supply is low or gone then ground attacks to disrupt before attacking.

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Post #: 8

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/9/2017 10:31:48 AM

Yakface

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quote:

ORIGINAL: John B.

@Hans, is it really true that you can save supply by setting artillery and/or flak to resting? I had no idea.

You can avoid the supply drain from counter-battery fire by setting units to reserve. However units with AA elements will fire at aircraft (within ceiling limits) whatever setting they are put on.

(in reply to John B.)

Post #: 9

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/9/2017 2:38:37 PM

Zecke

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Always airfield attack; in a city; reduces everything (enemys, supplys; entrenchments; moral; etc..etc..)

(in reply to Yakface)

Post #: 10

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/9/2017 4:11:47 PM

Shark7

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From: The Big Nowhere
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Assuming few enemy fighter at a base you want to take which is better for reducing LCU AV rating? I've read various conflicting comments on this. By rights it should be ground attack but is it?

You have to explain more than that what options you are considering. Naval Bombardment? Fighters Strafing? Low Ground or Ground B? Bombers at 20K to reduce flak losses? AF bombing. City Bombing.

In most cases the answer will be "It depends". What exactly do you have? What are his fort levels? Is time an issue? Is it a coastal hex or island? Is the enemy well supplied or likely to run short quickly? Intel on enemy units like flak and air support?

Not a specific objective. Generally reducing LCU AV using airpower.

In my experience, repeated daily ground attack raids will reduce the AV of a LCU to very low levels, if given enough time. But you still need to deplete the supply in the enemy base while you are at it. So I generally use both ground attack and airfield attack (and port attack as well if it is a port hex) to reduce the combat effectiveness of all the LCUs in the hex.

And I'll post an example of what doing ground attack with multiple air groups over time can accomplish. I loaded up my AI game as Allies and picked a unit I know I've been using as training fodder for my air groups. Now this unit was out in the open and has been getting a daily hammering by about 6 air groups for 6 months or so. This unit is completely useless in combat, be it due to reduced raw AV or adjusted AV.

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'When in doubt...attack!'

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Post #: 11

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/10/2017 1:35:13 AM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zecke

Always airfield attack; in a city; reduces everything (enemys, supplys; entrenchments; moral; etc..etc..)

Again, not to my knowledge. Airfield attack will:

1) Damage the airfield

2) Damage the airbase

3) Destroy supplies if the base has any stockpiled

4) Damage units that are "stationed" at the airfield, which I think is just those with aviation support (and maybe some flak to shoot back? I don't typically see HQa's take damage, for example, but AF Units will).

5) Burn supplies in any units that shoot back at the airfield bombing (I'm not sure, but I think this might only be units "stationed" at the airfield or AA units; I'm not sure if infantry divisions fire back against base attacks, for example).

Attacking an airfield will not directly do any of the following:

1) Cause any kind of damage to morale enemy units that are not "airfield" units (such as divisions or regiments); if the base runs out of supply and then these units run out of supply (which you can hasten with ground bombing), their morale will start to fall faster than it otherwise would.

2) Cause any disabled/damaged devices in units such as divisions

3) Cause any disruption or fatigue in units such as divisions

Therefore, if you're looking to cause direct damage to units and not burn up supplies that are at the base and not already in units, you should Ground Attack. Granted, you may do little or no damage to devices if the forts and terrain are sufficient to protect the unit, but you will burn up the unit's supplies if it fires any AA devices back at the planes and you will cause some measure of disruption/fatigue and therefore morale damage.

(in reply to Zecke)

Post #: 12

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/10/2017 5:31:23 AM

Yaab

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From: Poland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Assuming few enemy fighter at a base you want to take which is better for reducing LCU AV rating? I've read various conflicting comments on this. By rights it should be ground attack but is it?

You have to explain more than that what options you are considering. Naval Bombardment? Fighters Strafing? Low Ground or Ground B? Bombers at 20K to reduce flak losses? AF bombing. City Bombing.

In most cases the answer will be "It depends". What exactly do you have? What are his fort levels? Is time an issue? Is it a coastal hex or island? Is the enemy well supplied or likely to run short quickly? Intel on enemy units like flak and air support?

Not a specific objective. Generally reducing LCU AV using airpower.

In my experience, repeated daily ground attack raids will reduce the AV of a LCU to very low levels, if given enough time. But you still need to deplete the supply in the enemy base while you are at it. So I generally use both ground attack and airfield attack (and port attack as well if it is a port hex) to reduce the combat effectiveness of all the LCUs in the hex.

And I'll post an example of what doing ground attack with multiple air groups over time can accomplish. I loaded up my AI game as Allies and picked a unit I know I've been using as training fodder for my air groups. Now this unit was out in the open and has been getting a daily hammering by about 6 air groups for 6 months or so. This unit is completely useless in combat, be it due to reduced raw AV or adjusted AV.

Interesting. No experience gain for this Chinese unit from all this bombing. Must be due to its complete lack of AAMGs or AA guns.

(in reply to Shark7)

Post #: 13

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/11/2017 4:12:41 AM

Shark7

Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H

Assuming few enemy fighter at a base you want to take which is better for reducing LCU AV rating? I've read various conflicting comments on this. By rights it should be ground attack but is it?

You have to explain more than that what options you are considering. Naval Bombardment? Fighters Strafing? Low Ground or Ground B? Bombers at 20K to reduce flak losses? AF bombing. City Bombing.

In most cases the answer will be "It depends". What exactly do you have? What are his fort levels? Is time an issue? Is it a coastal hex or island? Is the enemy well supplied or likely to run short quickly? Intel on enemy units like flak and air support?

Not a specific objective. Generally reducing LCU AV using airpower.

In my experience, repeated daily ground attack raids will reduce the AV of a LCU to very low levels, if given enough time. But you still need to deplete the supply in the enemy base while you are at it. So I generally use both ground attack and airfield attack (and port attack as well if it is a port hex) to reduce the combat effectiveness of all the LCUs in the hex.

And I'll post an example of what doing ground attack with multiple air groups over time can accomplish. I loaded up my AI game as Allies and picked a unit I know I've been using as training fodder for my air groups. Now this unit was out in the open and has been getting a daily hammering by about 6 air groups for 6 months or so. This unit is completely useless in combat, be it due to reduced raw AV or adjusted AV.

Interesting. No experience gain for this Chinese unit from all this bombing. Must be due to its complete lack of AAMGs or AA guns.

I'm sure its a number of factors. Being cut off from supply due to all nearby bases being in the red on supplies, constant bombing, being in an open hex, no AAA at all, etc. And its been getting attacked for a long time since I'm basically using that unit to train my bomber crews. I have a feeling that against a live player I would not get the opportunity to reduce it like this, as they'd have sense enough to move it into a city or forest hex where the bombing is far less effective. The AI just can't help itself.

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'When in doubt...attack!'

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Post #: 14

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/11/2017 4:25:37 PM

geofflambert

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An alternative if a base is involved is to attack an airfield and/or port as any engineers present will have to delay fortifying while repairing the damage you cause. They will repair damage first even if your opponent doesn't want them to. That's a real pain if you're the defender and expect to lose the base eventually and would just as soon make your opponent repair everything afterwards. I wish there was a switch you could flip with two other options. 1. Repair damage 2. Ignore damage 3. Incur damage

There would have to be a switch for the airfield and another for the port and for good measure the oil farm if present and a refinery if present.

(in reply to Shark7)

Post #: 15

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/11/2017 5:16:56 PM

Lokasenna

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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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You can set engineers to rest mode - they won't repair then.

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Post #: 16

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/11/2017 5:32:51 PM

BBfanboy

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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

You can set engineers to rest mode - they won't repair then.

But why? Repairs don't use any supply.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 17

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/11/2017 5:58:06 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

You can set engineers to rest mode - they won't repair then.

But why? Repairs don't use any supply.

Because engineers must be in combat mode to do engineer things.

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 18

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/11/2017 7:35:47 PM

BBfanboy

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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

You can set engineers to rest mode - they won't repair then.

But why? Repairs don't use any supply.

Because engineers must be in combat mode to do engineer things.

I know that - so what is the point of putting them in rest mode? They can do repairs without using supply so why not do them? Engineer morale?

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 19

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/11/2017 8:40:06 PM

Lokasenna

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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

You can set engineers to rest mode - they won't repair then.

But why? Repairs don't use any supply.

Because engineers must be in combat mode to do engineer things.

I know that - so what is the point of putting them in rest mode? They can do repairs without using supply so why not do them? Engineer morale?

No, if for some reason you want them to not repair the base because your opponent is going to take it and you want them to have to repair it.

The thing being posited was that you can't stop the engineers from repairing the base (as the owner of the engineers). But you can if you put them in rest mode (I think any non-combat mode will do).

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 20

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/11/2017 11:53:07 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

You can set engineers to rest mode - they won't repair then.

But why? Repairs don't use any supply.

Because engineers must be in combat mode to do engineer things.

I know that - so what is the point of putting them in rest mode? They can do repairs without using supply so why not do them? Engineer morale?

No, if for some reason you want them to not repair the base because your opponent is going to take it and you want them to have to repair it.

The thing being posited was that you can't stop the engineers from repairing the base (as the owner of the engineers). But you can if you put them in rest mode (I think any non-combat mode will do).

OK - now I understand the aim - I did not notice the shift in discussion to how to avoid giving the enemy gifts!

Attachment (1)

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 21

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/12/2017 3:47:44 PM

szmike

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
I know that - so what is the point of putting them in rest mode? They can do repairs without using supply so why not do them? Engineer morale?

is it confirmed?
I've always thought one strat was to get enemy to repair, thus using supply

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 22

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/13/2017 4:57:09 AM

Lokasenna

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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: szmike

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
I know that - so what is the point of putting them in rest mode? They can do repairs without using supply so why not do them? Engineer morale?

is it confirmed?
I've always thought one strat was to get enemy to repair, thus using supply

Repairs burn no supplies.

Construction burns supplies.

(in reply to szmike)

Post #: 23

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/14/2017 7:07:24 PM

rustysi

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quote:

Interesting. No experience gain for this Chinese unit from all this bombing. Must be due to its complete lack of AAMGs or AA guns.

Units do not gain experience from air bombardment. They will however gain experience from ground units bombarding them. I think that it'll only go to the national limit from this method though.

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(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 24

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/15/2017 6:46:10 AM

geofflambert

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From: St. Louis
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

You can set engineers to rest mode - they won't repair then.

They also won't fortify then. Your purpose is to hold out as long as possible but the game doesn't allow you to do that. That has to be calculated based on supply since fortifying consumes supply.

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 25

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/15/2017 9:52:25 AM

HansBolter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Interesting. No experience gain for this Chinese unit from all this bombing. Must be due to its complete lack of AAMGs or AA guns.

Units do not gain experience from air bombardment. They will however gain experience from ground units bombarding them. I think that it'll only go to the national limit from this method though.

Not sure what national limit is. Chinese won't go above 59 experience from pure ground bombardment. Have much experience monitoring this.

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Post #: 26

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/15/2017 1:55:47 PM

Lokasenna

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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

You can set engineers to rest mode - they won't repair then.

They also won't fortify then. Your purpose is to hold out as long as possible but the game doesn't allow you to do that. That has to be calculated based on supply since fortifying consumes supply.

But you can't build forts if the base is damaged every day

(in reply to geofflambert)

Post #: 27

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/15/2017 1:55:59 PM

Lokasenna

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From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

Interesting. No experience gain for this Chinese unit from all this bombing. Must be due to its complete lack of AAMGs or AA guns.

Units do not gain experience from air bombardment. They will however gain experience from ground units bombarding them. I think that it'll only go to the national limit from this method though.

There is no limit to experience gains from combat.

(in reply to rustysi)

Post #: 28

RE: Ground Attack or Airfield Attack - 8/15/2017 5:17:43 PM

Alfred

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The National Limit is a ceiling only for LCUs not involved in combat. To increase the experience level beyond the National Limit ceiling requires combat with low casualties as replacements reduce the current experience level.

Alfred

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 29