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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

 
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/17/2017 9:24:31 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline 		Yeah, the lyric timeline doesn't work. They imply, without saying explicitly, he was in Virginia until at least May 10th, THEN went back to TN. Where RE Lee wasn't.

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The Moose

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Post #: 11821
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/17/2017 11:07:09 PM   
Bearcat2

 

Posts: 577
Joined: 2/14/2004
Status: offline 		"Virgil Caine is the name, and I served on the Danville train
'Till Stoneman's cavalry came and tore up the tracks again
In the winter of '65, we were hungry, just barely alive
By May the tenth, Richmond had fell, it's a time I remember, oh so well

The night they drove old Dixie down, and the bells were ringing
The night they drove old Dixie down, and the people were singin' they went
La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la

Back with my wife in Tennessee, when one day she called to me
"Virgil, quick, come see, there goes Robert E Lee"
Now I don't mind choppin' wood, and I don't care if the money's no good
Ya take what ya need and ya leave the rest,
But they should never have taken the very best"

_____________________________

"After eight years as President I have only two regrets: that I have not shot Henry Clay or hanged John C. Calhoun."--1837

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 11822
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/18/2017 5:27:28 AM   
DW

 

Posts: 161
Joined: 2/14/2008
Status: offline 		https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jREUrbGGrgM

(in reply to Bearcat2)
Post #: 11823
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/18/2017 1:26:00 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		11/5/44

Fancy Pants: IJ 70th Div. evaporates on the left flank; John may be sacrificing 2nd Tank Div. on the right.




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(in reply to DW)
Post #: 11824
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/18/2017 1:28:03 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		11/5/44

KB: What's this enemy carrier division up to?




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Post #: 11825
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/18/2017 2:31:21 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		2nd Tank Division might very well be the best unit in the Japanese OOB. Depends how it was modded, if at all.


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 11826
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/18/2017 2:33:44 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		2nd Tank Division was the Japanese unit that gave my 33rd (32nd?) Division fits out in the open near Amoy a month back. My division was topnotch but was getting eaten up by the enemy and nearly got isolated. So 2nd Tank Div. has my respect.

That John has committed it to open terrain near big Allied airfields and to plug a hole in a leaky dike may say a great deal about John's current mindset.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 11827
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/18/2017 2:46:16 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

2nd Tank Division was the Japanese unit that gave my 33rd (32nd?) Division fits out in the open near Amoy a month back. My division was topnotch but was getting eaten up by the enemy and nearly got isolated. So 2nd Tank Div. has my respect.

That John has committed it to open terrain near big Allied airfields and to plug a hole in a leaky dike may say a great deal about John's current mindset.


Hit them with single engine bombers at 9K for a day; use the deathstar; and then strafe them into oblivion. Break out those fighter bombers and fighters and cruise in at 1000 feet.

Problem solved in two days.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 11828
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/18/2017 3:31:53 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

Actually I think a KB losses its purpose at some point of the game - it is the chess queen, that should be sacrificed along the way to keep the king alive. However in this game the KB is burning so much fuel sailing back and forth even if covering fuel/oil/resources flowing back to Japan - it becomes a liability.

You are positioned well for air assault against Japan, maybe a base or two closer to Kyushu for fighters and you are done with. If Japan evacuates DEI of its combat units leaving just KB and garrisons there, it is a bag of VPs to collapse once the supporting structure (KB) is taken out of picture. And be sure there is a lot of VPs lying there!


Think you are right. There is just a point when Allied sea power becomes so strong that the Japanese fleet becomes redundant. (Although John has a few more ships in this mod) I think it is a mistake for the Japanese player to hoard his ships for the end game. There is a time mid war when he (she) should just go "all-in", and once that point is past, the fleet has little impact.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to Barb)
Post #: 11829
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/18/2017 3:35:29 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

That sounds like Richmond, 1865. "The night they drove ol' Dixie Down...."*

*That's a great song and for the most part accurate historically or at least plausibly consistent with history....but there is one flaw that I can't get past. "Virgil come quick...there comes a Robert E. Lee...." Well, the lyrics make clear that Virgil and his kinfolks are in Tennessee....and Lee wasn't there during the war (he might've been there very early in the war, as a colonel of the engineers - I don't think so, but I don't know for sure - but he was never there after he took command of the Army of Northern Virginia in 1862).


I am guessing that it was not Robert E. Lee that he actually saw but one of those damn reenactors.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 11830
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/18/2017 9:44:17 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jREUrbGGrgM


I hadn't heard this version until you posted it last night, DW. Now I can't get it out of my head. It's really good. Thanks.

(in reply to DW)
Post #: 11831
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/18/2017 9:48:42 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		11/6/44

Fancy Pants: Important Allied attacks on the left flank, center, and right flank tomorrow. I know the latter will succeed, opening the door to clobber 2nd Tank Division.






Attachment (1)

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 11832
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/18/2017 9:51:14 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

quote:

ORIGINAL: DW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jREUrbGGrgM


I hadn't heard this version until you posted it last night, DW. Now I can't get it out of my head. It's really good. Thanks.



Just listened to a Joan Baez version on the suggest list on the above link, which I never heard before. Included: additional vocalists The Holladay Singers and The Town and Country Singers, guitarist-dobro player Norman Blake, guitarist Pete Wade, bassist Norbert Putnam, drummer Kenny Buttrey, keyboardist David Briggs, harmonica player Charlie McCoy, violinist Buddy Spicher, string players The Nashville Strings, and horn players The Memphis Horns.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 11833
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/18/2017 10:26:56 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		The original (actual) song lyrics go "'til Stoneman's cavalry came and tore up the tracks again..."

Joan either has trouble remembering that part or intentionally changes it. In early versions of the song I think she's singing "'til so much cavalry came..." and in later version I distinctly hear her singing "'til Stonewall's cavalry came...."

I don't know if that's accidental or intentional....but the idea of Stonewall Jackson being a cavalry commander and tearing up his own tracks is enough to drive a history buff nuts.



(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 11834
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/18/2017 10:29:17 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

Actually I think a KB losses its purpose at some point of the game - it is the chess queen, that should be sacrificed along the way to keep the king alive. However in this game the KB is burning so much fuel sailing back and forth even if covering fuel/oil/resources flowing back to Japan - it becomes a liability.

You are positioned well for air assault against Japan, maybe a base or two closer to Kyushu for fighters and you are done with. If Japan evacuates DEI of its combat units leaving just KB and garrisons there, it is a bag of VPs to collapse once the supporting structure (KB) is taken out of picture. And be sure there is a lot of VPs lying there!


Think you are right. There is just a point when Allied sea power becomes so strong that the Japanese fleet becomes redundant. (Although John has a few more ships in this mod) I think it is a mistake for the Japanese player to hoard his ships for the end game. There is a time mid war when he (she) should just go "all-in", and once that point is past, the fleet has little impact.


Not quite. The issue with LBA is coordination of large strikes. The KB usually has very good coordination. So combined with LBA in defense of the Hi the KB can be very effective. It's both under a large umbrella of land based CAP and supports the many land based strikes by providing a massive punch through.

Mid-war works to strike too, but the IJ player has to pick spots where the damaged CVs can be saved and the LBA can support and clean up Allied stragglers and damaged CV/CVEs.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 11835
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/18/2017 11:40:03 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

Actually I think a KB losses its purpose at some point of the game - it is the chess queen, that should be sacrificed along the way to keep the king alive. However in this game the KB is burning so much fuel sailing back and forth even if covering fuel/oil/resources flowing back to Japan - it becomes a liability.

You are positioned well for air assault against Japan, maybe a base or two closer to Kyushu for fighters and you are done with. If Japan evacuates DEI of its combat units leaving just KB and garrisons there, it is a bag of VPs to collapse once the supporting structure (KB) is taken out of picture. And be sure there is a lot of VPs lying there!


Think you are right. There is just a point when Allied sea power becomes so strong that the Japanese fleet becomes redundant. (Although John has a few more ships in this mod) I think it is a mistake for the Japanese player to hoard his ships for the end game. There is a time mid war when he (she) should just go "all-in", and once that point is past, the fleet has little impact.


Not quite. The issue with LBA is coordination of large strikes. The KB usually has very good coordination. So combined with LBA in defense of the Hi the KB can be very effective. It's both under a large umbrella of land based CAP and supports the many land based strikes by providing a massive punch through.

Mid-war works to strike too, but the IJ player has to pick spots where the damaged CVs can be saved and the LBA can support and clean up Allied stragglers and damaged CV/CVEs.


I think if there is conventional wisdom for JFB's late in the game it is this -- the kb loses it's usefulness. Which to me is so wrong. The game changes so badly for Japan once the KB is diminished. The KB is always useful, just not in a bigger wrench kind of strategy.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 11836
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/18/2017 11:44:36 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		At this point there really isn't a serious threat to Death Star when KB is far away. But if DS had fewer fleet carriers then going up against big airfields well-stocked with enemy aircraft would be daunting and potentially dangerous. So, to me, the one thing Japan can't do is exactly what John's done and doing: lose a one-sided carrier battle and then play the softest of defenses.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 11837
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/19/2017 12:07:36 AM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

The original (actual) song lyrics go "'til Stoneman's cavalry came and tore up the tracks again..."

Joan either has trouble remembering that part or intentionally changes it. In early versions of the song I think she's singing "'til so much cavalry came..." and in later version I distinctly hear her singing "'til Stonewall's cavalry came...."

I don't know if that's accidental or intentional....but the idea of Stonewall Jackson being a cavalry commander and tearing up his own tracks is enough to drive a history buff nuts.






"Stonewall's Foot Calvary". He would have tore up his own tracks if they were getting ready to fall into the hands of the Yankees.


He is saying "Stoneman"

"George Stoneman, Jr. (August 8, 1822 – September 5, 1894) was a United States Army cavalry officer, trained at West Point, where his roommate was Stonewall Jackson."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Stoneman

Ive heard Joan left out Stoneman's name on purpose in some of her performances. His name still leaves a bitter taste in some places.

It's fun to play on the guitar, Especially the C-G-F-Em progression. also heard in "The Weight" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-w9OclUnns&list=RDq-w9OclUnns


Yet it still has a tearful sadness to it, as with the Am and Dm chords.


Am C/G F Em Dm
Virgil Cain is my name and I served on the Danville train,
Am C/G F Em Dm
Till Stoneman's cavalry came and tore up the tracks again.
C/E F C Dm
In the winter of sixty-five we were hungry, just barely alive.
C/E F
By May the tenth Richmond had fell.
C Dm D
It was a time I remember all so well.

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 8/19/2017 12:12:57 AM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 11838
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/19/2017 12:11:35 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		In other words, the diminution of the Allied carrier fleet to some material extent - even at ruinous cost to KB - will dampen Allied freedom of movement in the vicinity of big airfields.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 11839
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/19/2017 12:13:46 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		It would never been "Stonewall's cavalry," though. It would always be "Stonewall's foot cavalry."

There's no disguising it - Joan gets it wrong if she's singing "Stonewall's cavalry." There was no such thing. Besides, Stonewall's foot cavalry was never anywhere close to the Danville train.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 11840
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/19/2017 12:14:42 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn


It's fun to play on the guitar, Especially the C-G-F-Em progression. also heard in "The Weight" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-w9OclUnns&list=RDq-w9OclUnns




The Weight is a great song, having grown up near Nazareth...I always felt there was a deeper meaning to the song, but if there is...it wasn't intentional.

That is a lot like another favorite song of mine, Dylan's "Tangled up in Blue." It rhymed and sounded it right was about all the deeper meaning in that one according to Dylan.

< Message edited by Lowpe -- 8/19/2017 12:16:36 AM >

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 11841
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/19/2017 12:20:40 AM   
MakeeLearn


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Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

It would never been "Stonewall's cavalry," though. It would always be "Stonewall's foot cavalry."

There's no disguising it - Joan gets it wrong if she's singing "Stonewall's cavalry." There was no such thing. Besides, Stonewall's foot cavalry was never anywhere close to the Danville train.



Just making a historical note, not justifying the song at all. It's "Stoneman"


Here Joan says "So much Calvary came" and the song sheet says "Till Stoneman's Cavlary"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_eK9ERNChI
Change due to Stoneman's remembrance being bitter. So Ive read.

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 8/19/2017 12:35:57 AM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 11842
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/19/2017 12:29:15 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Amazing that folks in the '70s (and later) still harbored such feelings about Sherman, Stoneman, Butler, etc. so that it would show up in rock or folk songs, movies, stories, etc. But that's the way it is in the South, even to this day among some.

In the mid-1990s, I was researching Augustus R. Wright, a Georgian who served in the US House, the Confederate House, as a Confederate officer, sired 17 children four of whom served in the Confederate army, was a prominent judge, lawyer and preacher....and strongly opposed secession from the Union. One day I excitedly told my law partner, Jimmy Dick Maddox, whose grandfather had been a Confederate cavalryman and later a US Congressman, about my research of Judge Wright. After a few minutes, Jimmy Dix began stroking his chin. Then he quietly told me, "My father did not like that man. He was not a loyal southerner."


(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 11843
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/19/2017 12:30:18 AM   
MakeeLearn


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Here she says "Stonewall".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTNirVqTepE

(in reply to MakeeLearn)
Post #: 11844
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/19/2017 12:34:53 AM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Amazing that folks in the '70s (and later) still harbored such feelings about Sherman, Stoneman, Butler, etc. so that it would show up in rock or folk songs, movies, stories, etc. But that's the way it is in the South, even to this day among some.

In the mid-1990s, I was researching Augustus R. Wright, a Georgian who served in the US House, the Confederate House, as a Confederate officer, sired 17 children four of whom served in the Confederate army, was a prominent judge, lawyer and preacher....and strongly opposed secession from the Union. One day I excitedly told my law partner, Jimmy Dick Maddox, whose grandfather had been a Confederate cavalryman and later a US Congressman, about my research of Judge Wright. After a few minutes, Jimmy Dix began stroking his chin. Then he quietly told me, "My father did not like that man. He was not a loyal southerner."






Some families are still trying to remember where they hid the family silver...

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 8/19/2017 12:35:12 AM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 11845
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/19/2017 12:55:00 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

It would never been "Stonewall's cavalry," though. It would always be "Stonewall's foot cavalry."

There's no disguising it - Joan gets it wrong if she's singing "Stonewall's cavalry." There was no such thing. Besides, Stonewall's foot cavalry was never anywhere close to the Danville train.

Baez based her version on listening to records, not reading the lyrics, and like most folk music it morphs over the years.
I humbly suggest that she knew little about the ACW leaders other than Grant and Patton.

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 11846
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/19/2017 12:58:07 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

It would never been "Stonewall's cavalry," though. It would always be "Stonewall's foot cavalry."

There's no disguising it - Joan gets it wrong if she's singing "Stonewall's cavalry." There was no such thing. Besides, Stonewall's foot cavalry was never anywhere close to the Danville train.

Baez based her version on listening to records, not reading the lyrics, and like most folk music it morphs over the years.
I humbly suggest that she knew little about the ACW leaders other than Grant and Patton.



Are you trying to see if we are paying attention?

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to JeffroK)
Post #: 11847
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/19/2017 2:17:58 AM   
DW

 

Posts: 161
Joined: 2/14/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

quote:

ORIGINAL: DW
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jREUrbGGrgM


I hadn't heard this version until you posted it last night, DW. Now I can't get it out of my head. It's really good. Thanks.



You're welcome.

I've always felt that with some groups, including The Band, live versions of their music are better than studio versions. The studio versions are cleaner, but the live versions have much more depth of feeling.

It was in this thread that someone turned me on to the live symphonic performance of "Ecstasy of Gold" with Susanna Rigacci. That's become one of my favorite videos.

This seems to be a good AAR for things like that.... :)

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 11848
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/19/2017 4:39:07 AM   
Smoky Stoker


Posts: 87
Joined: 3/25/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Amazing that folks in the '70s (and later) still harbored such feelings about Sherman, Stoneman, Butler, etc. so that it would show up in rock or folk songs, movies, stories, etc. But that's the way it is in the South, even to this day among some.


The aftereffects of the ACW are not purely psychological. IIRC, it was sometime about 1960 that the town of Frederick, Maryland finished paying off the bank loan that financed part of Jubal Early's ransom in July 1864.


_____________________________

"Leveling large cities has a tendency to alienate the affections of the inhabitants and does not create an atmosphere of international good will after the war." -Rear Admiral Daniel V. Gallery

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 11849
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 8/19/2017 11:02:51 AM   
Reg


Posts: 2787
Joined: 5/26/2000
From: NSW, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Smoky Stoker


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Amazing that folks in the '70s (and later) still harbored such feelings about Sherman, Stoneman, Butler, etc. so that it would show up in rock or folk songs, movies, stories, etc. But that's the way it is in the South, even to this day among some.


The after effects of the ACW are not purely psychological. IIRC, it was sometime about 1960 that the town of Frederick, Maryland finished paying off the bank loan that financed part of Jubal Early's ransom in July 1864.


The government was still paying Civil War widow pensions until 2004....

Last widow of a Civil War veteran dies


_____________________________

Cheers,
Reg.

(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

(in reply to Smoky Stoker)
Post #: 11850
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