Joe D.
Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
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ORIGINAL: warspite1
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ORIGINAL: Joe D.
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ORIGINAL: warspite1
Previous responses removed to make the post more readable.
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ORIGINAL: Joe D.
You don't have to seek any answers for your arguments because apparently they are all sourced in yourself.
Historically the Serbs and Russians have always been allies, whether formal or informal. Further, Russia was a protector of Eastern Orthodox Christians in the Balkans, notably Serbia, with whom they also shared an alphabet.
And a rogue Serbian colonel still works for his government the way Col. Oliver North still worked for Ron Reagan during Iran-Contra.
I trust those points are understandable, or am I not speaking Queen's English?
warspite1
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I trust those points are understandable, or am I not speaking Queen's English?
Not sure why you’ve got all snotty.
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You don't have to seek any answers for your arguments because apparently they are all sourced in yourself.
I don’t source answers from myself - that’s ridiculous. I form an opinion based on reading and trying to learn – just as most people do.
Re the wiki comment I simply referred to the fact that I said something about a formal alliance, you then provided a wiki link to seek to prove me wrong “How informal was that?” I confirmed why that didn’t apply to this situation and then you went off and made another sweeping – and factually incorrect - statement. Now you’ve said:
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Historically the Serbs and Russians have always been allies, whether formal or informal.
I don’t know what this has to do with who started WWI but again, that statement is not quite true. Russia and Serbian relations went south for a time in the 1870’s due to Russian support for Bulgaria which affected Serbian interests. Indeed Serbian relations with Austria had been established in the early 1870’s and AH recognised the newly independent Serbia. Over time, relations with Austria soured and Serbia grew closer to Russia again, but to say Russia and Serbia have always been allies is patently false.
By 1914 the Russians and Serbs, although not formally aligned, were close enough that Russia felt compelled to act when AH threatened invasion of Serbia. None of that is up for dispute, none of that has been called into question by me – that is why I simply don’t understand why you bring this up again. You now seem of the opinion that Russia was not formally aligned to Serbia (true) but that relations between the two in 1914 was very close (true). And? What does that do regarding who is responsible for WWI?
I am not going to get into the Iran-Contra stuff because it will all get political and the thread will be locked so let’s bring it back to 1914. It was rogue elements within the Serbian Government that arranged the atrocity. Now. AH can, with German support, declare war on Serbia (with all that that means) OR it can, through restraint and a measured response (ideally with the backing of all powers) make the Serbians pay. Be clever, play the long game – play the diplomatic game – welcome the British offer of a conference. AH has been wronged. They can make that point very clearly.
Then, if the Serbian Government decides to take no action against the rogue elements and effectively does nothing, then that is a game-changer as far as Austria-Hungary is concerned. In that scenario AH has acted reasonably, but has been met with nothing but insult and provocation. The world will then have a different view of the respective merits of AH and Serbia.
A World War may well start in the future (I think pretty much everyone believes war was only a matter of time) but the perception of the guilty party(ies) in the blame game suddenly shifts..…
Rogues elements within a government still work for and represent that government; and using an assassin dying of consumption to kill the heir of neighboring empire is the blackest of all black ops that could lead to war.
And whatever temporary tiffs Serbia and Russia have had during the decades doesn't disqualify the strong cultural connections between them; I saw this for myself when I was peacekeeping in Bosnia in 2000. Have you ever been to that region of the world?
Again, if Germany is to be held responsible for backing AH then Russia is just as guilty for sticking up for its weaker sister state, and I can't understand why you don't understand this.
And not quite true statements are not quite false, either.
warspite1
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Rogues elements within a government still work for and represent that government; and using an assassin dying of consumption to kill the heir of neighboring empire is the blackest of all black ops that could lead to war.
Well I disagree, although as I said, if the Serbian Government were disingenuous about making amends (and their acceptance of all but one of the ultimatum points suggests they were not) then AH would have been within their rights to reconsider its position.
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And whatever temporary tiffs Serbia and Russia have had during the decades doesn't disqualify the strong cultural connections between them;
Really not sure how many times I can get this across. I AGREE. I DON'T HAVE ANY ISSUE WITH THE CONNECTION. I was putting you right on a factual inaccuracy, but I have never suggested that in 1914 Serbia and Russia were not linked.
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Have you ever been to that region of the world?
I have been to Austria and Hungary. I have never visited any of the Balkan countries. Why is that crucial to the events of 1914?
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Again, if Germany is to be held responsible for backing AH then Russia is just as guilty for sticking up for its weaker sister state, and I can't understand why you don't understand this.
Weaker sister state? Not my words but thanks for helping to make my argument. There is a MASSIVE difference between a) attacking a weak Sovereign nation and b) coming to the defence of a weak Sovereign nation being threatened by a bully. And I simply cannot see why you can't seem to grasp this.
If the Serbian Government was guilty of the crime then I don't have a problem. However. They weren't. Read the ultimatum. If the Serbs were genuine in accepting the points then that is all one needs to know. If they weren't then, as I said, all bets would be off.
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And not quite true statements are not quite false, either
What??? 
To paraphrase one of your own playwrights, you protest too much, methinks.
The Serbian government was and still is responsible for its own military/paramilitary. Even today, Bosnia-Herzegovina said it would appeal against a 2007 UN court ruling clearing Serbia of genocide during Bosnia’s civil war. That's why I asked if you have ever been in the region.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/18/bosnia-to-appeal-2007-un-court-ruling-clearing-serbia-of-genocide
And if posters don't source their "facts," how is that any different from just expressing their opinions?
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RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 
Yes, I was talking about the British, and yes, I think it does apply equally to any French, German, American, etc...including North Korean.
In answer as to why a Brit would enjoy a Brit historian (note I wrote "probably", not "only")...you answered above in regards to ones starting position. 
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