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RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/6/2017 6:16:21 PM   
BBfanboy


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RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/6/2017 6:26:19 PM   
geofflambert


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RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/6/2017 6:26:52 PM   
geofflambert


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RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/6/2017 6:31:33 PM   
geofflambert


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RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/6/2017 6:33:10 PM   
Grfin Zeppelin


Posts: 1515
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Status: offline 		Its obviously the Kaga.

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RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/6/2017 6:39:14 PM   
btd64


Posts: 9973
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Status: offline 		It's the IJN Good Ship Lollipop.....GP

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RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/6/2017 6:40:52 PM   
geofflambert


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RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/6/2017 8:00:55 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

Its obviously the Kaga.


The best analysis by far.

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Post #: 38
RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/6/2017 8:25:49 PM   
MakeeLearn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert









That is not a ship's beacon it is Kaigun-shōi(Ensign) Yamaguchi, he never got the word that 2300 hr "Inspection Formation" was cancelled.

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 9/6/2017 8:26:37 PM >

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RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/6/2017 8:45:10 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

Its obviously the Kaga.


The best analysis by far.
warspite1

+1

Did anyone actually see her sink after Midway? No I don't think so....

The Japanese spent some time turning BB into CV and CV hybrids. Well they also made the change in the opposite direction. When Kaga limped home in June 1942 she was altered into her original, one funnel BB design. FACT.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/6/2017 8:47:24 PM >

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RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/6/2017 8:51:05 PM   
Barb


Posts: 2503
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		I too believe it is IJN Nagato.
Seen below with a little higher angle on the bow:



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RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/6/2017 10:16:09 PM   
Grfin Zeppelin


Posts: 1515
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

Its obviously the Kaga.


The best analysis by far.
warspite1



Did anyone actually see her sink after Midway? No I don't think so....



Lmao


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Post #: 42
RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/6/2017 10:29:05 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

Its obviously the Kaga.


The best analysis by far.
warspite1

+1

Did anyone actually see her sink after Midway? No I don't think so....

The Japanese spent some time turning BB into CV and CV hybrids. Well they also made the change in the opposite direction. When Kaga limped home in June 1942 she was altered into her original, one funnel BB design. FACT.


I heard a theory on the internet that it wasn't Kaga at Midway - It was Amagi, sister of Akagi, supposedly damaged beyond repair in the 1923 Tokyo earthquake.

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Post #: 43
RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/6/2017 10:30:32 PM   
Grfin Zeppelin


Posts: 1515
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

Its obviously the Kaga.


The best analysis by far.
warspite1

+1

Did anyone actually see her sink after Midway? No I don't think so....

The Japanese spent some time turning BB into CV and CV hybrids. Well they also made the change in the opposite direction. When Kaga limped home in June 1942 she was altered into her original, one funnel BB design. FACT.


I heard a theory on the internet that it wasn't Kaga at Midway - It was Amagi, sister of Akagi, supposedly damaged beyond repair in the 1923 Tokyo earthquake.

I smell a gigantic insurance fraud.

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RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/6/2017 11:30:57 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		Great pic of Nagato, Barb! The four casemated guns forward and the sponson by the aft turrets show up in the searchlight shot. The aft mast and tower also look right when compared to the night pic.

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RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/7/2017 12:16:01 AM   
John 3rd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Great pic of Nagato, Barb! The four casemated guns forward and the sponson by the aft turrets show up in the searchlight shot. The aft mast and tower also look right when compared to the night pic.


Agreed. It is an excellent photo.


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Post #: 46
RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/7/2017 12:37:53 AM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		All that the down-slope of the illuminating beam means is that the observer is lower than the searchlight. For the photo to have been taken from any aircraft the left wing of that plane must a) have a searchlight mounted on it and b) the aircraft must be in a right bank such that its left wing is considerably higher than the cockpit where the camera is located.

Frankly the 'aircraft photo theory' is horse poop.

If the ship is the HIJMS Nagato as folks seem to be believing then it is from some naval exercise and has nothing whatever to do with any naval battle in the Pacific. I have to wonder however why any Japanese ship would illuminate an IJN battleship in any such exercise (especially since in IJN doctrine the BBs (excepting the Kongos) were supposed to hang back until daylight allowed them to finish off all of the surviving enemy BBs.

Having participated in some 'old-style' naval exercises where searchlights were actually used for illumination I believe that the ship in question is likely to be the HIJMS Yamashiro or HIJMS Fuso as author Tully would have us believe. I am not familiar enough with the tracklines of the US destroyers during the Battle of Surigao Strait to know whether any US destroyer (for I am sure the photo was from a destroyer) closed to within 2-3000 yards before firing its torpedoes. Considering the mobs of destroyers that attacked the IJN that night I would not be surprised if one got that close. I'd be very surprised if the light was on for more than the time it took the visual rangefinder to get a decent range (seconds if the radar range was already dialed in) on the target (and the time it took to snap a picture). They were not looking for a man overboard - they certainly knew that if it was on for a long time the BB's secondaries would make short work of them so they flicked it on - got a range - turned it off - fired torpedoes - and maneuvered violently to throw off the enemy response.

Actually I'd guess that more important than the range would be a better target angle of the BB - the range would have shown up very well enough on the DD's surface search or fire control radar but the bearings (from which precise course is determined) would be a bit more "mushy".

< Message edited by spence -- 9/7/2017 3:17:14 AM >

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Post #: 47
RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/7/2017 7:15:26 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin

Its obviously the Kaga.


The best analysis by far.
warspite1

+1

Did anyone actually see her sink after Midway? No I don't think so....

The Japanese spent some time turning BB into CV and CV hybrids. Well they also made the change in the opposite direction. When Kaga limped home in June 1942 she was altered into her original, one funnel BB design. FACT.


I heard a theory on the internet that it wasn't Kaga at Midway - It was Amagi, sister of Akagi, supposedly damaged beyond repair in the 1923 Tokyo earthquake.

I smell a gigantic insurance fraud.
warspite1

Yeah - we are talking Olympic/Titanic all over again. I feel a book coming on.


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Post #: 48
RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/7/2017 7:25:08 AM   
Buckrock

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence
If the ship is the HIJMS Nagato as folks seem to be believing then it is from some naval exercise and has nothing whatever to do with any naval battle in the Pacific. I have to wonder however why any Japanese ship would illuminate an IJN battleship in any such exercise (especially since in IJN doctrine the BBs (excepting the Kongos) were supposed to hang back until daylight allowed them to finish off all of the surviving enemy BBs.


I checked my e-copy of Tully's "Surigao Strait" and it does not contain the photo, so I'm not sure why it is shown on the combinedfleet page that discusses Tully's book.

In the absence of anything tying the photo to the action in Surigao Strait, I'd suggest too that it's likely just one taken during night searchlight practice being conducted by either BatDiv 1 or 2.


< Message edited by Buckrock -- 9/7/2017 8:15:28 AM >

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RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/7/2017 7:32:31 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		Looks much like Nagato to me, too.

A WAG - maybe the picture has been taken by the Japanese themselves.

An occasion would have been the Turkey Shoot on June 20 1944.

Nagato was standing by stricken Hiyo (which sank at 20h30) to help rescue survivors.

Also present was Mogami and several DDs.

Maybe they used searchlights to illuminate the rescue efforts and someone aboard Mogami or one of the DDs snapped a pic when Nagato got caught in the light beam.

The photographer being on the main deck, the searchlight would be well above him.

Yes, sounds far-fetched, but not impossible.

< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 9/7/2017 7:34:53 AM >

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RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/7/2017 1:06:35 PM   
Denniss

 

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Status: offline 		Is there another lightbeam hitting the ship from the rear or did it have its own searchlight on ?

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RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/7/2017 1:33:14 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

This picture is in the book "Battle of Surigao Strait" by Anthony Tully:

http://www.combinedfleet.com/Surigao/BattleofSurigaoStrait.htm

Other online discussions contend that this was either Fuso or Yamashiro. Yet others claim it was either a Kongo class or even some Japanese CA. I've yet to see original primary source material rather than online conjecture.



Many authors take a photo they have found and include it in their books without checking its provenance. In this case, Fuso and Yamashiro are absolutely ruled out by their tall, convoluted superstructures, unlike the stocky tower in the picture. Hiei and Kirishima had fairly clean towers but Nagato seems to be the best fit for the tower, the vertical single funnel and the casemated guns along the top of the hull.

Those pagodas must have made them top-heavy. Any known instances of capsizing and/or excessive rolling?


They were considered very top heavy and both Fuso and Yamashiro capsized quickly after torpedo hits induced a list. IIRC the IJN was forced to take measures to reduce topside weight in a number of their ship classes in the late 1930s. They had tried to cram too much armament on their decks and suffered for seaworthiness.

BB Fuso:








Bigger problem on all Japanese warships were the multiple two gun turrets. Take Japanese CAs for example. Japanese industry was just no up to making triple or quadruple turrets, so most CAs have five. Turret housing, equipment and the turrets themselves add significant weight to a ship. The American triple turret designs were much more weight efficient. Once upgunned to 8 inch guns, Japanese CAs proved to be unstable gun platforms.

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RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/7/2017 1:36:21 PM   
Insano

 

Posts: 228
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Status: offline 		You want to talk about insurance fraud? That's actually Mutsu.

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RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/7/2017 1:36:27 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

My guess is that the light is from a lighthouse or other facility on the hills around the strait and that the photo was taken from the shore or another ship.





I doubt it is from land. I don't see it being a lighthouse beacon. Also, too powerful for a aircraft mounted search light. That is a ship born search light and from the angle it is a heavy cruiser or BB. I doubt very seriously that this image was taken by an enemy ship. Probably another Japanese BB in night maneuvers. And, I doubt this was taken during combat. But there seems to be no real hard source on this.

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RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/7/2017 1:43:39 PM   
MakeeLearn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Is there another lightbeam hitting the ship from the rear or did it have its own searchlight on ?



There looks like another ship on the right.




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RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/7/2017 1:52:16 PM   
Edward75


Posts: 194
Joined: 4/16/2010
From: St. Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline 		I found new photo! This is training!
So, what is battleship is this and year?
Is there someone from Japan? What is written there?
Maybe two photos of two different battleships

P.S. Interestingly in Japan, game WitP AE is popular?




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< Message edited by Edward75 -- 9/7/2017 1:58:00 PM >

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RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/7/2017 3:38:42 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		Where did you find those photos?

Can't answer any questions about the photos, but we have had Japanese people on this forum. I remember one young man who barely communicated in English.
He was terminally ill and posted some things about Japan that were extremely interesting before he stopped posting. Sad to lose him but I was glad to make his acquaintance on the forum.

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RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/7/2017 4:08:15 PM   
Edward75


Posts: 194
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From: St. Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline
quote:

Where did you find those photos?


Russian network. But, resource from foreing resource.

Do you remember his name?

< Message edited by Edward75 -- 9/7/2017 4:10:52 PM >

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Post #: 58
RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/7/2017 7:45:45 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		Unfortunately I do not remember his name. I did send him a PM when he stopped posting but never got a reply. I assume he passed away from his illness.
I felt badly for him - his posts sounded like he was lonely - not having many others to talk to at his bedside. RIP Japanese lad.

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RE: unknown IJN Battleship - 9/7/2017 8:15:51 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn


quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Is there another lightbeam hitting the ship from the rear or did it have its own searchlight on ?



There looks like another ship on the right.





Good catch, man, it does.




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