warspite1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14
The 10 demands of the ultimatum:
warspite1
I think that your view seems to gloss over the fact that Serbia was an independent sovereign nation. At this point there was no proof as to who exactly ordered the assassination. As I said, you try demanding of the American government what was demanded of Serbia.
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The Royal Serbian Government will furthermore pledge itself:
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1. to suppress every publication which shall incite to hatred and contempt of the Monarchy, and the general tendency of which shall be directed against the territorial integrity of the latter;
Who is the arbiter of this? What is deemed to incite hatred and contempt – as opposed to simple free speech? So A-H goes and does something stupid in another part of the world. A Serbian cartoonist draws a humorous cartoon depicting the event. A bit of satire or an incitement to hatred? Well I’m sure A-H will decide. Free speech goes out of the window.
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Your comment: This is not unreasonable
And you really think this was a reasonable demand? Even so, the Serbs agreed to it.
Serbian Response: [Serbia will] introduce ... a provision into the press law providing for the most severe punishment of incitement to hatred and contempt of the [A-H] Monarchy...
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2. to proceed at once to the dissolution of the Narodna Odbrana to confiscate all of its means of propaganda, and in the same manner to proceed against the other unions and associations in Serbia which occupy themselves with propaganda against Austria-Hungary; the Royal Government will take such measures as are necessary to make sure that the dissolved associations may not continue their activities under other names or in other forms;
You said the Serbs rejected this. Can you provide a source for that please? This is not the case according to First World War.com. So A-H don’t just want what they regard as criminal organisations outlawed but those that state any form of propaganda? And you think that limitation on free speech is acceptable?
Serbian Response: The Serbian govt.] possesses no proof ... that the Narodna Odbrana and other similar societies have committed up to the present any criminal act of this nature ... Nevertheless, [Serbia] will ... dissolve the Narodna Obrana and every other society which...
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3. to eliminate without delay from public instruction in Serbia, everything, whether connected with the teaching corps or with the methods of teaching, that serves or may serve to nourish the propaganda against Austria-Hungary;
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Your comment: Today there are bad actor nations/groups in control who teach their children to hate or propagandize children: Hamas vs Israel, Argentina concerning the Falklands, etc...I'm sure you would like that to stop? Serbia rejected this.
Again, this is just a restriction on free speech. Essentially this states it is outlawed that anything that A-H objects to can be taught about A-H in Serbia. Again can you provide a source for this being rejected please because that is not the popular conception?
Serbian Response: [Serbia will] eliminate without delay from public instruction ... everything that serves or might serve to foment the propaganda against [A-H], whenever [Austria] furnish them with facts and proofs...
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4. to remove from the military and administrative service in general all officers and officials who have been guilty of carrying on the propaganda against Austria-Hungary, whose names the Imperial and Royal Government reserves the right to make known to the Royal Government when communicating the material evidence now in its possession;
Yet again you have stated that the Serbs rejected this restriction on what Serbians can think. No one else seems to think this is the case. Source please.
Serbian Response: [Serbia] also agree to remove from the military service all such persons as the judicial inquiry may have proved to be guilty of acts directed against the integrity of the territory of [A-H], and they expect [Austria] to communicate ... the names and acts of these officers for the purpose of the proceedings which are to be taken against them.
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5. to agree to the cooperation in Serbia of the organs of the Imperial and Royal Government in the suppression of the subversive movement directed against the integrity of the Monarchy;
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Your comment: I would ask for clarification since this is written confusingly. Does it mean A-H officials get to operate within Serbia? If so how many, and to what degree? Is it in tandum with Serbian officials?, for how long, etc... To me it seems in cooperation with Serbian officials, and details to be worked out later...if so, see #1 above. Serbia rejected this.
Same again. Source please, this is not the clause that it's reported as being rejected. The Serbs asked for clarification yes, but did not reject it. Of course as we know, the Austrians were not interested in clarifying anything.....
Serbian Response: [The Serbian govt. does] not clearly grasp the meaning or the scope of the demand ... that Serbia shall undertake to accept the collaboration of the representatives of [A-H], but they declare that they will admit such collaboration as agrees with the principle of international law, with criminal procedure, and with good neighbourly relations.
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6. to institute a judicial inquiry against every participant in the conspiracy of the twenty-eighth of June who may be found in Serbian territory; the organs of the Imperial and Royal Government delegated for this purpose will take part in the proceedings held for this purpose;
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Your comment: I would happily concede this to A-H if my nation was innocent. Serbia rejected this. The way around this one though is to make sure the participants in the conspiracy leave Serbian territory.
Yes I am sure that you would be only too happy for anyone to come along and mess with the US Constitution…. This is the one that was rejected and not surprising really.
Serbian Response: ...As regards the participation in this inquiry [which Serbia intends to hold] of Austro-Hungarian agents... [Serbia] cannot accept such an arrangement, as it would be a violation of the Constitution...
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7. to undertake with all haste the arrest of Major Voislav Tankosic and of one Milan Ciganovitch, a Serbian official, who have been compromised by the results of the inquiry;
Again source please. Serbia did not reject this – but reasonably asked for proof. Essentially otherwise, this clause gives A-H the right to simply act as judge and jury in terms of who can be arrested. Why should that be allowed? If proof was provided and the persons not handed over then that is something else. Do the US simply hand US Citizens over to anyone - even those they don't have treaties with?
Serbian Response: [States it has not yet been possible to arrest one of the persons named; request proofs of guilt from Austria]
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8. by efficient measures to prevent the participation of Serbian authorities in the smuggling of weapons and explosives across the frontier; to dismiss from the service and to punish severely those members of the Frontier Service at Schabats and Losnitza who assisted the authors of the crime of Sarajevo to cross the frontier;
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Your comment: Serbia fully agreed to this.
And it should be noted that Pasic was trying to achieve that before the assassination.
Serbian Response: [agrees to reinforce measures against illegal trafficking of arms and explosives across the frontier with Bosnia-Herzegovina]
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9. to make explanations to the Imperial and Royal Government concerning the unjustifiable utterances of high Serbian functionaries in Serbia and abroad, who, without regard for their official position, have not hesitated to express themselves in a manner hostile toward Austria-Hungary since the assassination of the twenty-eighth of June;
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Your comment: No problem at all. Serbia should be diplomatic towards A-H after such an event. Serbia rejected this, really???
Yes really. Why must they accept this? Again they are attacking free speech. And if it works for Serbia then why not for Austria? So when Conrad and every other warmonger within Austrian higher circles make statements calling for the crushing of Serbia – as they had done for years - are they to be ‘explained’ too? No of course not, because A-H are totally innocent right?
Serbian Response: [offers explanations of anti-Austrian comments by Serb officials if Austria sends examples of their actually having been made]
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10. to inform the Imperial and Royal Government without delay of the execution of the measures comprised in the foregoing points.
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Your comment: I guess Serbia rejected this because they rejected 1-7, and 9. If you agree to 1-9, then you would agree with #10.
I think most of the world have different understandings of rejection, compliance and further query.
Serbian Response: [Serbia will duly notify the measures taken, but if Austria is not satisfied with the reply] the Serbian government . . are ready . . to accept a pacific understanding, either by referring this question to the decision of the International Tribunal of the Hague [i.e., the World Court], or to the Great Powers...
< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/9/2017 10:14:40 AM >
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RE: Who caused WW1 - revisited - 
Well I think you need to read the book again because you've forgotten something rather important..... 
. So was that sensible? 
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