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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

 
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/15/2017 1:18:13 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I know there's a ratio where you can cross a river and enter a hex and not trigger a shock attack. But, as far as I know, that only applies when you're crossing through a hexside you already control.

If you cross an enemy-controlled hexside, I think you always trigger the shock attack.

I could be wrong though.

(in reply to AcePylut)
Post #: 12151
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/15/2017 1:34:52 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		11/27/44

The situation at Changsha and why I've ordered a shock attack across the hex's west side:




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< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 9/15/2017 1:35:09 PM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/15/2017 3:45:07 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Are you done with invasions?

I see you blocked the railroad with a chinese straggler...well done.

There isn't a lot of native supply in Manchuko, Korea and China. I bet it isn't heavily protected with AA. No VP, but the impact of your offensive will greatly increase if the Japanese are fighting at 25% strength. Not to mention curtailing enemy air activity.

The River is navigable a long way, mines and cd guns don't work very well, if at all on the river.

Where did the 2nd Tank Division slink off to? Or did it get destroyed?

(in reply to Canoerebel)
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/15/2017 4:41:13 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		The way the river-crossing no-shock attack thingy is supposed to work is if you have AV which already crossed through the same hex side >1/3 (or >=1/3?) of your opponents AV there will be no river-crossing shock attack.

There might have been problems with the implementation initially, but the intention is you only count your AV that crossed the same way already.

_____________________________

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Post #: 12154
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/15/2017 4:44:19 PM   
AcePylut


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Status: offline 		Coolio - thanks for clearing that up witpqs. I couldn't remember the finer details (obviously)

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/15/2017 4:50:21 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		2nd Tank Division got mauled in successive defeats and retreats, so shouldn't be a factor in the game for a long time.

I'm not sure whether I'm done with large-scale invasions or not. For the next month or two, I'm going to concentrate on China and strategic bombing. If that doesn't put me on a trajectory to achieve 2:1 within a reasonable time, I'll consider invading Korea or Hokkaido or Java. Troops are prepped for all three.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/15/2017 5:37:22 PM   
jwolf

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The way the river-crossing no-shock attack thingy is supposed to work is if you have AV which already crossed through the same hex side >1/3 (or >=1/3?) of your opponents AV there will be no river-crossing shock attack.

There might have been problems with the implementation initially, but the intention is you only count your AV that crossed the same way already.


Once a unit is in the hex, I doubt the code keeps track of where it came from, but I admit that is speculation on my part. But you definitely trigger a shock attack if you cross a river hexside that you didn't cross before. Once the hexside is crossed, other units can come in without a shock via the 1/3 rule, but I don't know if that counts all AV in the target hex or only the portion that came in the same way. I suspect the former simply because the latter would be a huge pain to code for what seems a marginal benefit in gameplay or realism. Granted this is all speculation on my part.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 12157
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/15/2017 6:15:41 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

2nd Tank Division got mauled in successive defeats and retreats, so shouldn't be a factor in the game for a long time.


You are wrong here. The 2nd Tank Div has lots of different style devices in their TOE and can rebuild extremely fast given supplies needed to do so. Granted it won't be the anchor of the defense anymore, but it really can provide a lot of AT capability very quickly.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 12158
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/15/2017 8:22:25 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The way the river-crossing no-shock attack thingy is supposed to work is if you have AV which already crossed through the same hex side >1/3 (or >=1/3?) of your opponents AV there will be no river-crossing shock attack.

There might have been problems with the implementation initially, but the intention is you only count your AV that crossed the same way already.


Once a unit is in the hex, I doubt the code keeps track of where it came from, but I admit that is speculation on my part. But you definitely trigger a shock attack if you cross a river hexside that you didn't cross before. Once the hexside is crossed, other units can come in without a shock via the 1/3 rule, but I don't know if that counts all AV in the target hex or only the portion that came in the same way. I suspect the former simply because the latter would be a huge pain to code for what seems a marginal benefit in gameplay or realism. Granted this is all speculation on my part.

That came from the programmer who did it (Michael). Certainly it's possible that it got implemented a little more simply, but that's what he said at the time. I've never been enough interested in that detail to either test it or try and verify it from game observations.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/15/2017 8:32:16 PM   
Canoerebel


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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Gents, my army crossing the Japanese held hexside did NOT trigger an auto-shock attack. The stack entered the hex without any combat occurring at all.

I take this to mean that as long as the Allies have sufficient units in a contested hex to avoid triggering a shock attack when newly arriving units cross a river, it doesn't matter if the hexside being crossed is friendly- or enemy-controlled.

This is so contrary to my notions of how this worked that I'm likely to forget it soon.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 12160
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/15/2017 8:43:34 PM   
Alfred

 

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Status: offline 		Get Bullwinkle to explain the river crossing rule.  He has a copy of my unposted 101 paper on the subject.

Alfred

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/15/2017 8:48:58 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Gents, my army crossing the Japanese held hexside did NOT trigger an auto-shock attack. The stack entered the hex without any combat occurring at all.

I take this to mean that as long as the Allies have sufficient units in a contested hex to avoid triggering a shock attack when newly arriving units cross a river, it doesn't matter if the hexside being crossed is friendly- or enemy-controlled.

This is so contrary to my notions of how this worked that I'm likely to forget it soon.



I had the same thing happen at Moulmein. I had flanked it and entered it from due east, which is not a river crossing.
I then had a large army cross the river from the north. Expecting it to trigger a shock attack I shock attacked with the units already in the hex and the large army crossing the river did not participate.
The result was NOT pretty.

_____________________________

Hans


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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/15/2017 8:57:14 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Hans and I will be in Alfred's doghouse.

I suppose most of have a decent but not encyclopedic grasp of the rules. At some point, many of us have to compromise with reality. Not knowing everything, and for the sake of sanity, we proceed and rely on common sense or feel or irrelevance of outcome to get us through the tough times.

By "irrelevance of outcome" I mean that the rule wouldn't alter our decision. With this particular move, for instance, the plan to cross the river and the enemy hexside set off alarms that doing so might trigger an auto-shock attack. I didn't stop to look up the rule or consult with folks who would know for this simple reason: it didn't matter, in this instance. I was determined to claim that hexside even if doing so roughed up a large Chinese army via shock attack.

So I made the move willingly, accepting the risk of not knowing. Sometimes, but not always, this kind of experience cements a rule in my head.

But why is it that every single game I must learn anew that the Allies cannot withdraw ships from Pearl....

....but I've always known that the flight operations of fleet carriers in coastal hexes are not halved unless it's a base hex.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 12163
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/15/2017 9:09:31 PM   
witpqs


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Status: offline 		Bear in mind that there can be bugs: which by definition defy the accurate description of how it works.

As best I remember there have been some bugs whereby a shock attack was expected but did not occur. Can't say if they all got found & fixed.

Trust what Alfred wrote and still be alert for bugs.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 12164
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/15/2017 9:11:59 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Bear in mind that there can be bugs: which by definition defy the accurate description of how it works.

As best I remember there have been some bugs whereby a shock attack was expected but did not occur. Can't say if they all got found & fixed.

Trust what Alfred wrote and still be alert for bugs.


You know what, I almost never find any real bugs. It is usually operator error.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 12165
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/15/2017 9:15:03 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		One of the real mysteries in the game of late has been the repeatedly poor performance of the very strong 5th Marine Div. and 5th Indian Div. These units have high experience, big numbers, and good commanders. They teamed up to beat up a decent IJA stack near Foochow. They chased that tattered stack down and attacked again...and had a tough time of it. Finally, they forced that stack to retire in utter shambles. They chased it down again, attacked again, and it again took multiple attacks.

Based on everything I know and "feel" about the game, I'd have put every cent I had on those two units just destroying that opposition every time they encountered it. Why they haven't has really puzzled me. I don't even think it could possibly be dice rolls.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 12166
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/15/2017 9:15:57 PM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		Given the picture, why did you think there would be a shock attack?

Also, you probably could have seen no shock attack off the unit description page.

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Post #: 12167
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/15/2017 9:19:04 PM   
Lowpe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

One of the real mysteries in the game of late has been the repeatedly poor performance of the very strong 5th Marine Div. and 5th Indian Div. These units have high experience, big numbers, and good commanders. They teamed up to beat up a decent IJA stack near Foochow. They chased that tattered stack down and attacked again...and had a tough time of it. Finally, they forced that stack to retire in utter shambles. They chased it down again, attacked again, and it again took multiple attacks.

Based on everything I know and "feel" about the game, I'd have put every cent I had on those two units just destroying that opposition every time they encountered it. Why they haven't has really puzzled me. I don't even think it could possibly be dice rolls.



You don't give nearly enough information about the units etc.

I will say Japanese, and when there is no valid supply path, are just really hard to kill if in good terrain. Given the situation in China, I would try very hard to put my troops in such a position to buy time.

edit: I went back a page and found the 5th Marine, I suspect there is no valid retreat path for the Japanese there anymore. This is something I warned about previously to watch out for, but you get so many posts it is easy to miss.


< Message edited by Lowpe -- 9/15/2017 9:22:14 PM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 12168
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/15/2017 9:39:41 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		For each attack there was a valid retreat path, including the most recent. The two Fifths are chasing that stack again because it's right in the best line of advance, which suits me.

I didn't give more details because I'm not trying to figure it out. Within the overall workings and scope of the game it's not a real issue. I'm sure it's on the Bell curve of probable outcomes, even if unusual. It's a curiosity I'm watching but not worried about enough to really delve into.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 12169
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/15/2017 11:44:58 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		11/28/44

Fancy Pants: Good day in China as the Chinese take Kweilin, several beleaguered IJ stakes take heavy losses, and the Chinese army enters Changsha in numbers.

The most interesting aspect of the game is whether John will try anything else, either targeting Death Star or the Ningpo forces. He's tried once and took a pretty tough repulse. But this could be the last crack he'll get at key Allied concentrations spread far apart.




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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/16/2017 12:36:03 AM   
Xilana

 

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Status: offline 		Can we see a VP screen; curious to see how the land loss equation is shaping up.

THX

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/16/2017 3:41:57 AM   
palioboy2

 

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Status: offline 		What are your total B29 loses? And what is the break down of A2A/FLAK/OPS?

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Post #: 12172
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/16/2017 6:16:11 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Bear in mind that there can be bugs: which by definition defy the accurate description of how it works.

As best I remember there have been some bugs whereby a shock attack was expected but did not occur. Can't say if they all got found & fixed.

Trust what Alfred wrote and still be alert for bugs.


There is a calculation done on the "fly" separately on each unit to determine the ratios. The computed result is not visible to the player. As it is a dynamic environment handled under the hood it is very easy for a player to mistakenly believe a bug exists.

Alfred

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 12173
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/16/2017 2:15:22 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
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From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Bear in mind that there can be bugs: which by definition defy the accurate description of how it works.

As best I remember there have been some bugs whereby a shock attack was expected but did not occur. Can't say if they all got found & fixed.

Trust what Alfred wrote and still be alert for bugs.


There is a calculation done on the "fly" separately on each unit to determine the ratios. The computed result is not visible to the player. As it is a dynamic environment handled under the hood it is very easy for a player to mistakenly believe a bug exists.

Alfred

At the relevant point during the turn the AV needed comparison might have:

a) met the threshold (no shock attack by the units crossing) but later when the player saw the AV it did not meet the threshold resulting in mistaken belief a bug was witnessed;

or

b) not met the threshold (shock attack by the units crossing) but later when the player saw the AV it did meet the threshold resulting in mistaken belief a bug was witnessed.

Or of course the other two cases where the AV seen by the player mirrored the behavior so no bug was believed to be seen.

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Post #: 12174
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/16/2017 2:50:09 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		11/29/44

Per request, here is the Intel Screen.




Attachment (1)

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/16/2017 3:00:01 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		11/29/44

Superfort Losses




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Post #: 12176
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/16/2017 3:23:56 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		11/29/44

Points Comparison: Big changes between mid January 1944 and late November 1944. That should be the case, of course.

Closing on the Home Islands in order to initiate strategic bombing is probably the highest priority in the game for the Allies. Strategic bombing is foremost way to score points efficiently.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 9/16/2017 3:26:48 PM >

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/16/2017 9:09:43 PM   
Rusty1961

 

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Status: offline 		I noticed in a previous screen you posted the Exp/Air of one of your better B29 groups. To reduce your Op losses you need Air ratings that are in the 60s to 70s and your AIR ratings were around 20.


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Post #: 12178
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/16/2017 10:15:11 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I've never heard of that before. I thought Air was air-to-air combat skills important to fighter pilots. If it's important to bomber pilots, that's news to me. It makes sense that Experience, Nav (or whatever) Bombing skill and Defense skill would be important to a bomber pilot, but not Air.

I don't have enough time left to train up bomber pilots, so that kind of info (assuming it's accurate) will have to wait for next game.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 9/16/2017 10:16:13 PM >

(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 12179
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/16/2017 10:40:33 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline 		Hmmmm....I thought Exp was used in A2A. If I have it backwards, than you are either flying many missions at extended range and/or bad weather. My B24D losses are very small and I have large EXP/AIR ratings and I've been flying them for going on 8 months. I think I've lost fewer than 10 in A2A and a paltry number in OPS. I'll post it later. Good game.

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Post #: 12180
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