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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

 
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/16/2017 11:04:13 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline 		As of 8/1/43 my B24D1 losses are as follows

A2A:8
Flak:13
Ground:3
OP:14

6 months of using these planes.

(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 12181
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/17/2017 12:15:40 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I lost dozens and dozens of B-24D1s flying missions at normal range over Port Moresby in 1943. The objective underlying those missions really wasn't suppressing the airfield, although I did.

The real objective was to draw and hold John's attention to Port Moresby and New Guinea while I snuck up behind him and grabbed him by the DEI. I'm pretty sure it worked.

There are many good ways to use bombers and there are some good ways to lose them.

(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 12182
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/17/2017 4:03:46 AM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline 		I was just pointing out why I think your B29 OP losses were on the high side as I think you're AIR values are contributing to the losses.

Take care.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 12183
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/17/2017 4:14:13 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

I was just pointing out why I think your B29 OP losses were on the high side as I think you're AIR values are contributing to the losses.

Take care.


Rusty, how do you train your bomber pilots up in A2A?

Ops losses comes from running bombers at high plane fatigue/damage levels and can be the result of flak, air to air, small runways, lack of aviation support, weather, or simply too high an operational tempo. Plus lots more I bet. Balloons comes to mind too.

(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 12184
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/17/2017 2:11:14 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

I was just pointing out why I think your B29 OP losses were on the high side as I think you're AIR values are contributing to the losses.

Take care.


Rusty, how do you train your bomber pilots up in A2A?

Ops losses comes from running bombers at high plane fatigue/damage levels and can be the result of flak, air to air, small runways, lack of aviation support, weather, or simply too high an operational tempo. Plus lots more I bet. Balloons comes to mind too.




That's simple...the best bomber pilot is a fighter pilot! Most of my USAAF in '42 up till August is training. Once you get the fighter pilots up to 60s in EXP and Air throw them into reserve than put them in a bomber group so they can get their bombing skills up. And the bomber pilots with high Ground Bombing skills rotate into them into the fighter groups to train up their Air.

I don't do much bombing until the B17 groups and expand to 12 planes in August of '42 than I start bombing him. At that point I take few bomber losses. My current opponent's only counter to my bombers was to Bombard with his BBs.

And yes, I make sure I have the support and good runways and only rarely bomb at extended range-rarely. To do other wise is to throw away valuable assets.

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 12185
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/17/2017 5:19:33 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961
I was just pointing out why I think your B29 OP losses were on the high side as I think you're AIR values are contributing to the losses.

Take care.

A2A skill importance for anything else than F/FB looks like yet another urban legend
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3093454

(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 12186
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/17/2017 7:55:48 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Gents, my army crossing the Japanese held hexside did NOT trigger an auto-shock attack. The stack entered the hex without any combat occurring at all.

I take this to mean that as long as the Allies have sufficient units in a contested hex to avoid triggering a shock attack when newly arriving units cross a river, it doesn't matter if the hexside being crossed is friendly- or enemy-controlled.

This is so contrary to my notions of how this worked that I'm likely to forget it soon.



I had the same thing happen at Moulmein. I had flanked it and entered it from due east, which is not a river crossing.
I then had a large army cross the river from the north. Expecting it to trigger a shock attack I shock attacked with the units already in the hex and the large army crossing the river did not participate.
The result was NOT pretty.

I have noticed similar lack of shock attack and each time the unit crossing was on a first-class gray road, meaning the crossing was done on a bridge as opposed to a river ford. So it seem if you have a bridgehead on the other side, crossing a major bridge does not cause a shock attack.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 12187
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/17/2017 8:09:52 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		Re: your map notation in post 12170 about the IJA units not retreating through hex sides they control:

- this may indicate that Hanoi and Haiphong are out of supply since the retreat rule talks about a clear valid supply path enabling retreat. I.E., 0 supply invalidates the normal retreat to base path. Just a guess though ...

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 12188
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/17/2017 8:39:52 PM   
Mike McCreery


Posts: 4232
Joined: 6/29/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Gents, my army crossing the Japanese held hexside did NOT trigger an auto-shock attack. The stack entered the hex without any combat occurring at all.

I take this to mean that as long as the Allies have sufficient units in a contested hex to avoid triggering a shock attack when newly arriving units cross a river, it doesn't matter if the hexside being crossed is friendly- or enemy-controlled.

This is so contrary to my notions of how this worked that I'm likely to forget it soon.



I had the same thing happen at Moulmein. I had flanked it and entered it from due east, which is not a river crossing.
I then had a large army cross the river from the north. Expecting it to trigger a shock attack I shock attacked with the units already in the hex and the large army crossing the river did not participate.
The result was NOT pretty.

I have noticed similar lack of shock attack and each time the unit crossing was on a first-class gray road, meaning the crossing was done on a bridge as opposed to a river ford. So it seem if you have a bridgehead on the other side, crossing a major bridge does not cause a shock attack.


There is reference in the manual somewhere that sufficient forces in the target hex will prevent shock attacks on river crossings. Not sure what the ratio has to be though.

_____________________________


(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 12189
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/17/2017 8:56:46 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wargmr


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Gents, my army crossing the Japanese held hexside did NOT trigger an auto-shock attack. The stack entered the hex without any combat occurring at all.

I take this to mean that as long as the Allies have sufficient units in a contested hex to avoid triggering a shock attack when newly arriving units cross a river, it doesn't matter if the hexside being crossed is friendly- or enemy-controlled.

This is so contrary to my notions of how this worked that I'm likely to forget it soon.



I had the same thing happen at Moulmein. I had flanked it and entered it from due east, which is not a river crossing.
I then had a large army cross the river from the north. Expecting it to trigger a shock attack I shock attacked with the units already in the hex and the large army crossing the river did not participate.
The result was NOT pretty.

I have noticed similar lack of shock attack and each time the unit crossing was on a first-class gray road, meaning the crossing was done on a bridge as opposed to a river ford. So it seem if you have a bridgehead on the other side, crossing a major bridge does not cause a shock attack.


There is reference in the manual somewhere that sufficient forces in the target hex will prevent shock attacks on river crossings. Not sure what the ratio has to be though.

That applies when crossing a hex side that some of your forces have already crossed through - i.e. there is a river ford with a bridgehead already established.

The situations above posit a first-time crossing at a point crossed by a major highway. It seems like the bridgehead established by friendly units that crossed via a different hex side may allow the road bridge crossing without a shock attack - the only way I can explain the lack of shock attack. I have seen this often enough to believe it is a thing!

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Mike McCreery)
Post #: 12190
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/17/2017 9:12:41 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Re: your map notation in post 12170 about the IJA units not retreating through hex sides they control:

- this may indicate that Hanoi and Haiphong are out of supply since the retreat rule talks about a clear valid supply path enabling retreat. I.E., 0 supply invalidates the normal retreat to base path. Just a guess though ...

Heavily beat up LCUs sometimes do not retreat at all, no matter supply paths. Means they are on the verge of surrender.
Also, I believe actual supply availability does not matter for supply path calculations and applications.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 12191
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/17/2017 10:13:12 PM   
crsutton


Posts: 9590
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

I was just pointing out why I think your B29 OP losses were on the high side as I think you're AIR values are contributing to the losses.

Take care.


Rusty, how do you train your bomber pilots up in A2A?

Ops losses comes from running bombers at high plane fatigue/damage levels and can be the result of flak, air to air, small runways, lack of aviation support, weather, or simply too high an operational tempo. Plus lots more I bet. Balloons comes to mind too.




That's simple...the best bomber pilot is a fighter pilot! Most of my USAAF in '42 up till August is training. Once you get the fighter pilots up to 60s in EXP and Air throw them into reserve than put them in a bomber group so they can get their bombing skills up. And the bomber pilots with high Ground Bombing skills rotate into them into the fighter groups to train up their Air.

I don't do much bombing until the B17 groups and expand to 12 planes in August of '42 than I start bombing him. At that point I take few bomber losses. My current opponent's only counter to my bombers was to Bombard with his BBs.

And yes, I make sure I have the support and good runways and only rarely bomb at extended range-rarely. To do other wise is to throw away valuable assets.


Never thought to try this. Got plenty of trained fighter pilots and lots of them with bombing skills. Gonna take a look.

_____________________________

I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.

Sigismund of Luxemburg

(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 12192
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/18/2017 1:49:57 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		11/29/44

Fancy Pants: Details on map.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 12193
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/18/2017 3:21:15 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		What is all the shipping at Okinawa and Daito?

Once again China falls fast...you cracked it like an egg.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 12194
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/18/2017 3:29:35 AM   
Lovejoy


Posts: 240
Joined: 12/16/2015
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

What is all the shipping at Okinawa and Daito?



I'd wager either they're reinforcement/supply convoys or being used to pull out LCUs for elsewhere.





(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 12195
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/18/2017 3:44:05 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		There's mostly riff-raff (MTBs, etc.) plus a Q-Ship CVE TF with no aircraft.

(in reply to Lovejoy)
Post #: 12196
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/18/2017 7:16:18 AM   
Barb


Posts: 2503
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		RE: B-29 (or other 4E) pilots

As far as I know the A2A pilot rating in bombers won't have any impact. The most relevant skills are:
EXP - survivability when damaged and/or bad weather
GND - affecting accuracy of bomb targeting
DEF - defensive maneuver/fire when under attack by another aircraft (defensive maneuver not really in place for 4Es in formation)

Other skills can be beneficial from time to time:
Low Gnd - if you intend to go in at 1000ft
NavS - if you are using them on Naval Search (PB4Y, Liberator GR marks) - this is also used when bombing ships located while on NavS mission
ASW - if you are using them on ASW (PB4Y, Liberator GR marks) - when used on ASW - also used when bombing the located sub
NavB/LowNavB - useful only when you are trying to bomb enemy ships at sea via Naval Attack mission.

So if you want your bombers to perform better when faced with enemy fighter defense, get the EXP and DEF up.

_____________________________


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 12197
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/18/2017 12:06:59 PM   
Bearcat2

 

Posts: 577
Joined: 2/14/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks for your excellent AAR; your explanations of your strategy and the fact that you post the results of all your battles, good and bad is greatly appreciated.


_____________________________

"After eight years as President I have only two regrets: that I have not shot Henry Clay or hanged John C. Calhoun."--1837

(in reply to Barb)
Post #: 12198
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/18/2017 1:23:45 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Glad you're reading, Termite.

From my perspective as the Allied player in late 1944, the focus is on "the big picture," which means three things: Supply, Strategic Bombing and China. Most of my posts and diagrams focus on those things. Its pretty rare to go into smaller events like day-to-day sub ops or the ebb and flow of the air war on the periphry.

John is focusing on the big picture too - mainly on what he can do to delay the inevitable. For him, that's mostly about the small victories - an air ambush, a sub kill, trapping an isolated LCU and destroying it, etc.

(in reply to Bearcat2)
Post #: 12199
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/19/2017 3:07:15 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		11/30/44

Last week, somebody (Paullus?) asked why I was scheduling daytime strategic bombing raids. This is why.

Raid on Shimizu:




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 12200
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/19/2017 3:10:06 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		If you can find a base not protected by CAP and strong AA, the results are vastly superior to nighttime raids. In the nighttime, many squadrons get "lost" and don't complete the missions, the bombing runs are usually in small groups of three or five, and the results are considerably dampened by darkness's effect on accuracy.

This raid was the biggest and most successful to date. I don't have recon on Shimizu, near Tokyo, so I'm not quite sure what the results are yet. I do know that, by the end of the turn, 100k+ fires were still burning, so resources, light industry and heavy industry should take decent hits.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 12201
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/19/2017 3:13:52 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		11/30/44

Shimizu: This shows Shimizu after the raid but before damage has been reported (I think). I'll edit the post and add a similar screenie of Shimizu next turn. Resources, Light Industry and Heavy Industry should show material damage.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 12202
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/19/2017 3:26:46 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		11/30/44

Death Star and the Herd: Big rendezvous to take place tomorrow.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 12203
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/19/2017 3:41:12 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		11/30/44

Fancy Pants: Allies take Nanchang, sealing the east side of the pocket. The Japanese no longer have a viable means of egress to the east. John's army will have to stay and fight or Dunkirk out of Hong Kong or Canton. Dealing with this pocket will take quite some time but most IJ units within it are battered now.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 12204
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/19/2017 8:30:26 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		12/1/44

Death Star: Rendezvoud with the merchant TF inbound from the DEI. The combined forces proceed north on the most significant mission. An armada of empties will proceed south to the DEI. There are a lot of points and they will be exposed for a few days.

Fancy Pants: 10th IJA Division finally retreats in northern Indochina, giving the Allies access to Hanoi and Haiphong. I should be able to wrap up this pocket before the end of the year.







Attachment (1)

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 12205
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/19/2017 9:08:38 PM   
Grfin Zeppelin


Posts: 1515
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

11/30/44

Shimizu: This shows Shimizu after the raid but before damage has been reported (I think). I'll edit the post and add a similar screenie of Shimizu next turn. Resources, Light Industry and Heavy Industry should show material damage.




Thats Yokosuka not Shimzu. Shimizu is one hex left.

_____________________________



(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 12206
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/19/2017 9:27:55 PM   
MakeeLearn


Posts: 4278
Joined: 9/11/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gräfin Zeppelin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

11/30/44

Shimizu: This shows Shimizu after the raid but before damage has been reported (I think). I'll edit the post and add a similar screenie of Shimizu next turn. Resources, Light Industry and Heavy Industry should show material damage.




Thats Yokosuka not Shimzu. Shimizu is one hex left.

_____________________________




Tourist

< Message edited by MakeeLearn -- 9/19/2017 9:29:18 PM >

(in reply to Grfin Zeppelin)
Post #: 12207
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/19/2017 9:28:50 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I'm using the Mercator projection.

(in reply to Grfin Zeppelin)
Post #: 12208
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/19/2017 10:24:30 PM   
wpurdom

 

Posts: 476
Joined: 10/27/2000
From: Decatur, GA, USA
Status: offline 		Was working my way through this AAR from the restart up to page 226 when I lost my place. Is there some way to go back to a post # or a page number other than leafing through?

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 12209
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/19/2017 10:33:29 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wpurdom

Was working my way through this AAR from the restart up to page 226 when I lost my place. Is there some way to go back to a post # or a page number other than leafing through?

You can edit the address box for a specific page.




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_____________________________

If we're all created in the image of god then why aren't we all invisible?

(in reply to wpurdom)
Post #: 12210
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