Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

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ORIGINAL: Neogodhobo

dont know how to delele messages.

In Mother Russia "message" delete "you"!

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ORIGINAL: Drakken

T4 - Evacuation and other considerations

Kiev has been stripped completely bare of its Armament and HI factories. I want psych0 to fight a grizly battle and waste time for a competely empty city.

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ORIGINAL: Nix77

I'd say you may have left the Dnepr banks south of Kiev a bit too early. Breaching a major river is really difficult task, the Soviet should hold those crossings as long as possible.

Making a breach when the Germans start their turn 40 miles west from the river shouldn't possible if you make a half decent line along the river.

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ORIGINAL: Drakken

Thank you, guys. I admit, I find seeing German panzers so close from Moscow in the middle of July very unnerving. Then again, the battle of Smolensk did happen in July 1941.

Quick question, tactic-wise: Early game, which frontal line defense is preferable facing the German panzers head on, when they are directly in contact, to absorb a maximum of their MP?

4 lines deep? (1-1-1-1)

OR

3 lines deep, but more then one counter in front? (Like 2-1-1 or 3-1-1)

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ORIGINAL: Nix77

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ORIGINAL: Drakken

Thank you, guys. I admit, I find seeing German panzers so close from Moscow in the middle of July very unnerving. Then again, the battle of Smolensk did happen in July 1941.

Quick question, tactic-wise: Early game, which frontal line defense is preferable facing the German panzers head on, when they are directly in contact, to absorb a maximum of their MP?

4 lines deep? (1-1-1-1)

OR

3 lines deep, but more then one counter in front? (Like 2-1-1 or 3-1-1)

It's really a mystery I've been wondering all the time while playing the soviets :D

It depends on so many factors that it's really hard know in advance. How many PzDivs are present, how many MPs do they have, is the infantry close, what kind of terrain it is, the list goes on and on :(

When I'm playing the Germans I try to break the strong lines with infantry and make breakthroughs with panzers. If there's a 4 line deep weak formation, making hasty attacks with panzers may break the line.

If you only have weak units, deep line might be the best option. With some stronger units, having strong points on the line may pay off even if it makes the line shallow.

As in so many things in this game, experience is probably the best teacher in this regard too.

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ORIGINAL: Drakken

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ORIGINAL: Nix77

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ORIGINAL: Drakken

Thank you, guys. I admit, I find seeing German panzers so close from Moscow in the middle of July very unnerving. Then again, the battle of Smolensk did happen in July 1941.

Quick question, tactic-wise: Early game, which frontal line defense is preferable facing the German panzers head on, when they are directly in contact, to absorb a maximum of their MP?

4 lines deep? (1-1-1-1)

OR

3 lines deep, but more then one counter in front? (Like 2-1-1 or 3-1-1)

It's really a mystery I've been wondering all the time while playing the soviets :D

It depends on so many factors that it's really hard know in advance. How many PzDivs are present, how many MPs do they have, is the infantry close, what kind of terrain it is, the list goes on and on :(

When I'm playing the Germans I try to break the strong lines with infantry and make breakthroughs with panzers. If there's a 4 line deep weak formation, making hasty attacks with panzers may break the line.

If you only have weak units, deep line might be the best option. With some stronger units, having strong points on the line may pay off even if it makes the line shallow.

As in so many things in this game, experience is probably the best teacher in this regard too.

Yes, I figure that it is a matter of experience. Hence why I ask.

I have received my opponent's T5 and quite frankly, my situation in the Centre is making me scared ****less because I get scared of being pocketed again and I am under self-pressure not to cede a line. From my point of view limited by FOW, the German panzers are seemingly indestructible, with crazy CV and seemingly no loss in MP even being hundred of kilometres from their nearest converted rail line, and not even waiting for their Infantry divisions still closing, but not yet in contact with my line. Psych0 is not using HQBU and even with this, he seems to be able to make fast movements even in rough terrain.

I have studied the Eastern Front extensively. This makes no sense that he should be able to pull this. Even if I look at other people's AAR, I do not understand how they can manage to hold the centre so close from Moscow with units still at 1 CV, while sparing troops to build Forts in Moscow. Mine are at 3-6 CV, even higher sometimes, they are all on the front with no troop to spare in the back, and it seems to change nothing.

So, my only solution is to find a way to pad it with as many troops as possible, with no reserve or troops building forts around Moscow, even if I "know" he will just pierce and breakthrough again. Plus, I do not expect any empathy from other players from expressing my utter bewilderment. I still do so, however, because I need to vent and I know a LOT of newbies do not feel validated in expressing it at all, so they quietly leave the game.

This is the reason why I created this AAR, at my expense. So that veterans can chime in and give support and reassurance to budding Soviet players like me who, quite frankly, were left on their own to fend for themselves.

I guess I will have to deal mentally with continuing the war with Moscow gone by Fall, that they are just dots on the map, even though the situation south of Leningrad is for now under some sort of control.

I will make a SITREP of the situation later.

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ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Depends on your opponent to be honest. A rule that I use is that the Germans need right around 4 times the defense to normally be successful for a hasty attack(I'm not factoring in all the BS that goes in this but just as a standard value). Thus a 90 attach value German hasty attack in open will more than likely move a defense stack of right around 20ish defense. For a Normal attack I use the rule the Germans need 2 times the defense value to move that stack. So I normally try and get a 25+ defense stack to stop hasty attacks and plan the defense in depth 1-2-2-1 or 1-3-2-1 or 1-2-3-1 depending on the person you are playing.
I even do 5 deep on some opponents. But really is situational based on person.

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ORIGINAL: Drakken

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ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Depends on your opponent to be honest. A rule that I use is that the Germans need right around 4 times the defense to normally be successful for a hasty attack(I'm not factoring in all the BS that goes in this but just as a standard value). Thus a 90 attach value German hasty attack in open will more than likely move a defense stack of right around 20ish defense. For a Normal attack I use the rule the Germans need 2 times the defense value to move that stack. So I normally try and get a 25+ defense stack to stop hasty attacks and plan the defense in depth 1-2-2-1 or 1-3-2-1 or 1-2-3-1 depending on the person you are playing.
I even do 5 deep on some opponents. But really is situational based on person.

But that's in the Fall and Winter, right? How can you spare lines of 7 counters locally in the middle of July 1941?

Right now, in the Centre, I would need to send all my newly arrived counters to Moscow to even be able to build a fourth line. You will be able to see it later when I send my pictures of the current situation on the front.

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ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

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ORIGINAL: Drakken

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ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Depends on your opponent to be honest. A rule that I use is that the Germans need right around 4 times the defense to normally be successful for a hasty attack(I'm not factoring in all the BS that goes in this but just as a standard value). Thus a 90 attach value German hasty attack in open will more than likely move a defense stack of right around 20ish defense. For a Normal attack I use the rule the Germans need 2 times the defense value to move that stack. So I normally try and get a 25+ defense stack to stop hasty attacks and plan the defense in depth 1-2-2-1 or 1-3-2-1 or 1-2-3-1 depending on the person you are playing.
I even do 5 deep on some opponents. But really is situational based on person.

But that's in the Fall and Winter, right? How can you spare lines of 7 counters locally in the middle of July 1941?

Right now, in the Centre, I would need to send all my newly arrived counters to Moscow to even be able to build a fourth line. You will be able to see it later when I send my pictures of the current situation on the front.

Yup in August later

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ORIGINAL: Crackaces

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ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

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ORIGINAL: Drakken

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ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

Depends on your opponent to be honest. A rule that I use is that the Germans need right around 4 times the defense to normally be successful for a hasty attack(I'm not factoring in all the BS that goes in this but just as a standard value). Thus a 90 attach value German hasty attack in open will more than likely move a defense stack of right around 20ish defense. For a Normal attack I use the rule the Germans need 2 times the defense value to move that stack. So I normally try and get a 25+ defense stack to stop hasty attacks and plan the defense in depth 1-2-2-1 or 1-3-2-1 or 1-2-3-1 depending on the person you are playing.
I even do 5 deep on some opponents. But really is situational based on person.

But that's in the Fall and Winter, right? How can you spare lines of 7 counters locally in the middle of July 1941?

Right now, in the Centre, I would need to send all my newly arrived counters to Moscow to even be able to build a fourth line. You will be able to see it later when I send my pictures of the current situation on the front.

Yup in August later

Just a note .. I am assuming alt-CV in your calculations ..
I assume the extra lines depending on opponent is dependent on how ell they are able to corrdinte offensive reserves into battle and their use of bombing to prevent our defensive reserves from committing?

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ORIGINAL: Drakken

Yes, I figure that it is a matter of experience. Hence why I ask.

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ORIGINAL: bigbaba

your Pskov defense crumbled damnd fast. i did defend Pskov just like hard luck mentioned it in his excellent posting with a whole army and zukov as army commander and am able to hold it even in turn 5. i recommend that you read this thread "the defense of Moscow begins at Pskov".

Otherwise, you are doing well for a 2nd game as Russian.

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ORIGINAL: Crackaces

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ORIGINAL: bigbaba

your Pskov defense crumbled damnd fast. i did defend Pskov just like hard luck mentioned it in his excellent posting with a whole army and zukov as army commander and am able to hold it even in turn 5. i recommend that you read this thread "the defense of Moscow begins at Pskov".

Otherwise, you are doing well for a 2nd game as Russian.

Hardluckagain has a very well thought out gambit. It is a gambit in the true sense of the word. It appears given a standard opening that the Soviets can defend one front very well along a limited front. The defense depends on locating the best Soviet units in terms of morale and ability to dig, and place these units in strategic positions. Hardluckagain has identified Pskov as a center for this gambit.

It is a gambit -- as this defense gives up the ability to defend elsewhere. By concentration units -- the rest of Russia becomes vulnerable. If the Germans discover this defense early .. it is only a matter of focusing on another front. An innovative Southern opening could be a Soviet disaster should the Soviets simply depend on a Leningrad first strategy.

What Drakken now is most vulnerable right now in my opinion is a right hook.