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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent

 
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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/29/2017 3:42:57 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline 		At Nagasaki you went after manpower.Why not industry?

Also, when you send the B24s "low" in a night bombing mission, what is "low"?

And your Avenger strategic bombing altitude?

Thanks.


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 12361
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/29/2017 4:24:26 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		In three days of strategic bombing, the targets have been Manpower, Resources, Light Industry, Heavy Industry and Grace Factory. Manpower is an efficient target because it starts fires that can damage all the other categories (but especially seem effective against Resources and Light and Heavy Industries). Manpower also seems to be the easiest target to score hits again. If I understand the game correctly, and what I'm seeing happen each turn, Manpower is "spread out" and therefore easy for bombs to hit; but some targets are small and relatively hard to hit. You probably knew all this, but I wasn't sure based upon the wording of your question.

My B-24Js are set for daytime missions. I suspect you mean my B-29s. They are set at 2k for tonight's raid on Kobe. The low altitude increases hits but also losses to flak and balloons. So mostly I used this altitude for bases that don't seem well defended. (Right now, Nagasaki, Osaka, Tokyo and a few other bases seem to have the bulk of the AA.)

I accidentally left my Avengers at their normal altitude of 5k but changed it to 10k for tomorrow's raid.





(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 12362
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/29/2017 4:37:25 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

I suspect you mean my B-29s. They are set at 2k for tonight's raid on Kobe.

Crikey!!!

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Post #: 12363
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/29/2017 4:57:55 PM   
wpurdom

 

Posts: 476
Joined: 10/27/2000
From: Decatur, GA, USA
Status: offline 		I was pleasantly shocked a few weeks ago when I discovered you back among the active AAR's. Doubly so when I saw it was a revival of the AAR I had been following in 2013. It has taken me a while to catch up and I have enjoyed reading the history of your war.

Along the way I noted your book recommendations, particularly This Terrible Sound, so I got it and am about 2/3's through - Longstreet has just blown through the hole created by the order for Wood to move his position. I've enjoyed it, but it is definitely a book for Grognards - it takes you field by field, hour by hour, regiment by regiment through the whole disjointed battle. It brings home how little oversight and control there was in the battle, with Bragg and the COnfederate Corps commanders other than Longstreet on the second day, exercising almost no control, and the Union commanders reacting, at best being able to feed in reinforcements haphazardly, a division or brigade at a time. It also collects as many brief snippets or individuals experiences - John Doe seeing his best friend or father killed.

My own nomination for best single battle history from the Civil War is Last Chance For Victory: Robert E. Lee And The Gettysburg Campaign by Scott Bowden and Bill Ward. This book revolutionized my views of the second day at Gettysburg (The treatment of the third day is more questionable). The authors combine going back to contemporary sources prior to the post-reconstruction revisionist bias of persons like Early and Gordon wanting to scapegoat Longstreet (due to his support for reconstruction) along with new research and their own interesting analysis. Meanwhile on the Union side the glorious charge of the 20th Maine at Little Round Top has warped deeper anaysis of the second day). [To sum up, Longstreet becomes the faithful executioner of Lee's concept which works well until Billy Mahone fails to follow orders and AP Hill and Anderson failed to exercise the same oversight as Longstreet and his divisional commanders.] The book has a good and reasonable, though disputable take of the first day and the Stuart raid, a superb treatment of the second day, and a questionable take on the third day, but net is the best battle book of the war in my opinion, and the only one to make me change my fundamental understanding of a civil war battle in 40 years.

Sorry if this seems off-topic and out of place to the current discussions, but I felt it was sufficiently in line with the general tenor of Canoerebel AARs.

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Post #: 12364
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/29/2017 5:11:08 PM   
wpurdom

 

Posts: 476
Joined: 10/27/2000
From: Decatur, GA, USA
Status: offline 		Strategic bombing - Given your impressions of bombing results, I wonder whether when you bomb aircraft factories, the program models precision bombing, at which the USAAF had limited success, and when you go after manpower, it models firebombing, which the USAAF found much easier to execute effectively, and which incidentally destroyed a great deal of industry at the same time. In the real war, the firebombing started months later.

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Post #: 12365
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/29/2017 5:47:13 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline 		Thank you for the reply.

I find targeting LI a waste. I found hitting manpower destroys LI more quickly than directly targeting LI.

YMMV.

Also, in your attack recently where you lost 30+ B24s, what was the average EXP/AIR numbers of the B24 groups? Still examining the effectiveness of both EXP and AIR being 60-70 for bomber losses.

I like to use the TBFs for night airfield attacks as the USN did historically. Said attacks reduce the morale of Jap fighters, thus increasing their losses later in the day against the USN sweeps.

Enjoying the AAR

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 12366
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/29/2017 6:22:25 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Anybody know what a "Yasunkini" factory is?

I found one at Hiroshima/Kure. I've never heard of that before. Is it a snazzy night fighter, rocket-propelled day fighter, or unmanned cattle prod?

(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 12367
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/29/2017 6:24:51 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Thank you for the reply.

I find targeting LI a waste. I found hitting manpower destroys LI more quickly than directly targeting LI.

YMMV.

Also, in your attack recently where you lost 30+ B24s, what was the average EXP/AIR numbers of the B24 groups? Still examining the effectiveness of both EXP and AIR being 60-70 for bomber losses.

I like to use the TBFs for night airfield attacks as the USN did historically. Said attacks reduce the morale of Jap fighters, thus increasing their losses later in the day against the USN sweeps.

Enjoying the AAR


The average experience was low 60s - most from 61 to 65 with one or two high 50s or 60.

(in reply to Rusty1961)
Post #: 12368
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/29/2017 6:27:59 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wpurdom

I was pleasantly shocked a few weeks ago when I discovered you back among the active AAR's. Doubly so when I saw it was a revival of the AAR I had been following in 2013. It has taken me a while to catch up and I have enjoyed reading the history of your war.

Along the way I noted your book recommendations, particularly This Terrible Sound, so I got it and am about 2/3's through - Longstreet has just blown through the hole created by the order for Wood to move his position. I've enjoyed it, but it is definitely a book for Grognards - it takes you field by field, hour by hour, regiment by regiment through the whole disjointed battle. It brings home how little oversight and control there was in the battle, with Bragg and the COnfederate Corps commanders other than Longstreet on the second day, exercising almost no control, and the Union commanders reacting, at best being able to feed in reinforcements haphazardly, a division or brigade at a time. It also collects as many brief snippets or individuals experiences - John Doe seeing his best friend or father killed.

My own nomination for best single battle history from the Civil War is Last Chance For Victory: Robert E. Lee And The Gettysburg Campaign by Scott Bowden and Bill Ward. This book revolutionized my views of the second day at Gettysburg (The treatment of the third day is more questionable). The authors combine going back to contemporary sources prior to the post-reconstruction revisionist bias of persons like Early and Gordon wanting to scapegoat Longstreet (due to his support for reconstruction) along with new research and their own interesting analysis. Meanwhile on the Union side the glorious charge of the 20th Maine at Little Round Top has warped deeper anaysis of the second day). [To sum up, Longstreet becomes the faithful executioner of Lee's concept which works well until Billy Mahone fails to follow orders and AP Hill and Anderson failed to exercise the same oversight as Longstreet and his divisional commanders.] The book has a good and reasonable, though disputable take of the first day and the Stuart raid, a superb treatment of the second day, and a questionable take on the third day, but net is the best battle book of the war in my opinion, and the only one to make me change my fundamental understanding of a civil war battle in 40 years.

Sorry if this seems off-topic and out of place to the current discussions, but I felt it was sufficiently in line with the general tenor of Canoerebel AARs.


Thanks for the tip, wpurdom. I'm glad you found your way back.

This Terrible Sound is definitely a grognard (AE) level book. It no doubt helps to have a working knowledge of the terrain, else it's like an American trying to read Doctor Zhivago: Is it 13 kilometers or 2,000 kilometers from Grognivostok to St. Ravensburg? But above all I love all the insights into the thoughts of the fighting soldiers.

Compare Cozzens's works to that of a newcomer, named Powell. Powell does magnificent research and then packs all the information into his books. But that makes his writing clunky and rather dry. Cozzens, in comparison, is concise and powerful.

(in reply to wpurdom)
Post #: 12369
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/29/2017 6:40:28 PM   
Rusty1961

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 2/4/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Thank you for the reply.

I find targeting LI a waste. I found hitting manpower destroys LI more quickly than directly targeting LI.

YMMV.

Also, in your attack recently where you lost 30+ B24s, what was the average EXP/AIR numbers of the B24 groups? Still examining the effectiveness of both EXP and AIR being 60-70 for bomber losses.

I like to use the TBFs for night airfield attacks as the USN did historically. Said attacks reduce the morale of Jap fighters, thus increasing their losses later in the day against the USN sweeps.

Enjoying the AAR


The average experience was low 60s - most from 61 to 65 with one or two high 50s or 60.




And your AIR?

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 12370
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/29/2017 6:52:38 PM   
wpurdom

 

Posts: 476
Joined: 10/27/2000
From: Decatur, GA, USA
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quote:

It no doubt helps to have a working knowledge of the terrain


I've been to Chickamauga 2 or 3 times, but only with the medium level understanding of the battle - generally how the fighting developed on the first day, what the creek looks like, where Rosecrans had his HQ, where the hole was that Longstreet blew through and where Thomas made his stand. Since I live in the Atlanta area, I'll have to go back again having read the book.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 12371
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/29/2017 7:10:14 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		wprduom: I live 40 minutes from Chickamauga and have been there scores of times. I feel like I've only done the high points and haven't really gotten to know the battlefield yet. With my kids leaving the nest, I hope to have more time to do that in coming years. And visiting the field while reading the book is a superb way to appreciate it. By the way, the current visitor's center movie is the finest I've ever seen anywhere. It's so beautifully done that I'm sure somebody's going to take offense and have it banished.

Rusty: I did a quick look at my B-24J pilots. Average "Air" skill is probably about 20 - lots in the upper teens and low 20s. A few as low as single digits and a few as high as upper 30s to 40. But I don't think Air skill contributes in any way to bomber raids. If I'm wrong, somebody will have to show me. From what was discussed a week or two back it seemed like most folks said it doesn't have an effect.

(in reply to wpurdom)
Post #: 12372
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/29/2017 7:13:10 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		12/12/44

Raid on Kobe: Effective, low altitude nighttime raid on Kobe.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 9/29/2017 7:50:44 PM >

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(in reply to wpurdom)
Post #: 12373
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/29/2017 8:01:51 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		12/12/44

John's email begins similarly to yesterday's: "Damn.  A furball of EPIC proportions!"

To me, the action today seems considerably less vigorous than yesterday's. In particular, the enemy CAP tired out much more quickly, and the B-24Js didn't face any opposition to speak of.

Once again, the Avengers were "escorted" by sweeping Corsairs.

The Allied fighters got the better of the enemy fighters once again, but this time the Corsair losses are enough to consider.

It is hard for a non-IJ player to know how deep the Japanese fighter pools are this late in the game. I simply don't know. My experience has always been that Japan never runs out of any airplane ever.

But the number of fighters posted in the southern half of the Home Islands is considerably lower than before. Only Tokyo has a heavy concentration.

Of course, John could be resting fighters, holding them back, or basing them somewhere far forward. Again, I just don't know.

But I want to test Nagasaki one more time to see what's there tomorrow.

The carriers will pull back two hexes. Corsairs will sweep again. More Avengers will fly this time, and mainly against Armament Assembly and Heavy Industry.

A decent number of B-29s will daylight raid at 10k, focusing on Manpower. This is a bit risky, but let's see.

The B-24Js at Ningpo are going to switch off and target Light Industry at Keijo. That has just a level one airfield.







Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 9/29/2017 8:25:03 PM >

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Post #: 12374
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/29/2017 8:23:27 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		12/12/44

Just a few days ago, there were about six active fronts: Southern Indochina, Northern Indochina, Changsha, Kukong, Canton/Hong Kong, and Hangchow/Shanghai. Resistance collapses at the first three much more quickly than expected. So now the focus is on Canton, Kukong, Hangchow. Of those, the Chinese are handling the first (so I'm playing with house money there), while the Western Allies are modestly committed to the second. It's the third - Hangchow - that really matters.

Hexsides on this time for Jeff, Michael and others who like to really know what's where and why and where they can go.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 12375
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/30/2017 2:37:53 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		12/12/44

Strategic Bombing: Here's a look at four major strategic bombing targets. Lots of potential points for future raids.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 12376
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/30/2017 6:22:39 AM   
JeffroK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Anybody know what a "Yasunkini" factory is?

I found one at Hiroshima/Kure. I've never heard of that before. Is it a snazzy night fighter, rocket-propelled day fighter, or unmanned cattle prod?

Probably some 1000mph fighter with 10 x 30mm cannon, 50 hex normal range, 100 durability and 10 armour!

Google only came up with the Yakasuni Shrine.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/30/2017 6:43:00 AM   
BBfanboy


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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Anybody know what a "Yasunkini" factory is?

I found one at Hiroshima/Kure. I've never heard of that before. Is it a snazzy night fighter, rocket-propelled day fighter, or unmanned cattle prod?

The Japanese wettable kimono version of the bikini?

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/30/2017 11:48:00 AM   
Bearcat2

 

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Yasukini is a Navy medium bomber

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/30/2017 12:24:27 PM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

robably some 1000mph fighter with 10 x 30mm cannon, 50 hex normal range, 100 durability and 10 armour!
Actually, that is going to be in the next Reluctant Admiral mod! And the IJN gets 63 new late war DD's and all Japanese ground units will have intrinsic SAM batteries to keep the 4EB's away in clear territory.

< Message edited by JohnDillworth -- 9/30/2017 12:25:45 PM >

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Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/30/2017 1:25:59 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Allied carriers are three hexes from Nagasaki while Allied singe-engine bombers hit industrial targets there and while 4EB strike there and at Kobe....and the Japanese carriers are in the DEI.

This makes sense from a gaming standpoint....but that's a pretty massive disconnect between what you'd have expected to see in the real war.

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Post #: 12381
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/30/2017 2:01:24 PM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

Allied carriers are three hexes from Nagasaki while Allied singe-engine bombers hit industrial targets there and while 4EB strike there and at Kobe....and the Japanese carriers are in the DEI.

This makes sense from a gaming standpoint....but that's a pretty massive disconnect between what you'd have expected to see in the real war.
since you have carrier aircraft any thoughts to hitting the airfield?

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

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Post #: 12382
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/30/2017 2:10:13 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		That's just a tough question. Hitting industry is a direct way of scoring points. Hitting airfields is indirect. It can help the cause if sufficient fighters are on the ground and damaged by the raid. In this case, John has plenty of nearby airfields from which to base LRCAP so it seems possible that a raid won't mean that much. So I've chosen directness, to this point. Partly that's because the Allied fighters seem to be handling things well. My B-24Js took some lumps that one day, but I adjusted accordingly and otherwise the raids seem to be going well. I think I'll continue the direct way until a change of doctrine seems necessary or likely to catch John in a disadvantageous position.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/30/2017 6:13:18 PM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Allied carriers are three hexes from Nagasaki while Allied singe-engine bombers hit industrial targets there and while 4EB strike there and at Kobe....and the Japanese carriers are in the DEI.

This makes sense from a gaming standpoint....but that's a pretty massive disconnect between what you'd have expected to see in the real war.



It actually doesn't make a lot of sense from a gaming standpoint either.

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The Moose

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/30/2017 6:50:19 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Allied carriers are three hexes from Nagasaki while Allied singe-engine bombers hit industrial targets there and while 4EB strike there and at Kobe....and the Japanese carriers are in the DEI.

This makes sense from a gaming standpoint....but that's a pretty massive disconnect between what you'd have expected to see in the real war.



It actually doesn't make a lot of sense from a gaming standpoint either.

+1

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/30/2017 8:10:48 PM   
Mike McCreery


Posts: 4232
Joined: 6/29/2013
Status: offline 		MrKane has been able to pierce my 1300 plane CAP with 300 planes on a number of occasions. He shouldnt be the only person able to do that.

The Allies should not be able to be that close to the mainland of Japan.

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RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/30/2017 9:02:50 PM   
Flicker

 

Posts: 229
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From: Rocket City USA
Status: offline 		I'm with Mr. Winkle, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

I am revising my late game thoughts based on your experiences; strategic bombing is a winner. Any thoughts on basing? IIRC you're looking for a fighter base. Which bases look good for bombers?

Good game; glad to see the Red and Pearl campaigns and the planned MLR.

Also enjoy the book recommendations - just in time for Christmas.

(in reply to Mike McCreery)
Post #: 12387
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/30/2017 11:50:43 PM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

The Allies should not be able to be that close to the mainland of Japan.


They can and did in 1945. TF 58 pretty much ranged up and down the coast at will

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to Mike McCreery)
Post #: 12388
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 9/30/2017 11:54:39 PM   
JeffroK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

The Allies should not be able to be that close to the mainland of Japan.


They can and did in 1945. TF 58 pretty much ranged up and down the coast at will

And US & British Battleships bombarded installations on Honshu!

_____________________________

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Post #: 12389
RE: The Good The Bad & The Indifferent - 10/1/2017 5:06:47 AM   
Lokasenna


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From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flicker

I'm with Mr. Winkle, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

I am revising my late game thoughts based on your experiences; strategic bombing is a winner. Any thoughts on basing? IIRC you're looking for a fighter base. Which bases look good for bombers?

Good game; glad to see the Red and Pearl campaigns and the planned MLR.

Also enjoy the book recommendations - just in time for Christmas.



Anything that can be built very large and can't be easily bombarded. Level 9 AF is best, but level 8 will do for the 2x AV bit. You need level 7 at least for B-29s anyway.

(in reply to Flicker)
Post #: 12390
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