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Simple Newpe Question - Tenders - 11/26/2017 8:42:40 PM   
jbdenney

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 3/13/2008
Status: offline 		I am sure this has been answered before but I have not been able to find it.

I know that to maintain a minefield the ship cannot be in a TF. Just exiting in the hex maitains the minefield.

But what about a seaplane tender? To act as a seaplane base does the tender have to be in a TF or just present in the base? Also can it be a seaplane base in a non-base hex, and if so does it stay in a TF which remains on station?
Post #: 1
RE: Simple Newpe Question - Tenders - 11/26/2017 9:49:12 PM   
Chris21wen

 

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From: Cottesmore, Rutland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jbdenney

But what about a seaplane tender? To act as a seaplane base does the tender have to be in a TF or just present in the base? Also can it be a seaplane base in a non-base hex, and if so does it stay in a TF which remains on station?


Just present. FP/patrols do not have to be based on the AV. An AV can be anywhere even in the middle of the Pacific but, and I'm guessing as I've never thought about it before, it can only support FP that can fit on it. Many people find an isolated dot base and park a disbanded AV, flying in patrol a/c to operate from the dot base. Supply is required on the AV to maintain ops unless it is also at a base with it's own supply.

(in reply to jbdenney)
Post #: 2
RE: Simple Newpe Question - Tenders - 11/27/2017 5:06:47 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H


quote:

ORIGINAL: jbdenney

But what about a seaplane tender? To act as a seaplane base does the tender have to be in a TF or just present in the base? Also can it be a seaplane base in a non-base hex, and if so does it stay in a TF which remains on station?


Just present. FP/patrols do not have to be based on the AV. An AV can be anywhere even in the middle of the Pacific but, and I'm guessing as I've never thought about it before, it can only support FP that can fit on it. Many people find an isolated dot base and park a disbanded AV, flying in patrol a/c to operate from the dot base. Supply is required on the AV to maintain ops unless it is also at a base with it's own supply.

The part about the FP or Patrol aircraft having to fit on the AV is not correct. Some AVs can carry a few aircraft but most Allied ones do not. The number of aircraft they can support is at the lower right of the ship screen. If it can carry aircraft that will be shown just above it. The ship does not have to be in a TF because the aircraft can taxi up to it on the water. The base screen for the base it is at will show the Air Support value of the ship as a + after the base Air Support number e.g. "Air Support - 36 + 12 ".

Even when the base has supply, if the AF level is low the seaplanes will draw supply from the AV and the AV must replenish from the base eventually. At around level 4 or 5 AF the seaplanes seem to switch to using base supply, but still use the aircraft maintenance of the AV.

_____________________________

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Post #: 3
RE: Simple Newpe Question - Tenders - 11/27/2017 7:05:21 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
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From: Cottesmore, Rutland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H


quote:

ORIGINAL: jbdenney

But what about a seaplane tender? To act as a seaplane base does the tender have to be in a TF or just present in the base? Also can it be a seaplane base in a non-base hex, and if so does it stay in a TF which remains on station?


Just present. FP/patrols do not have to be based on the AV. An AV can be anywhere even in the middle of the Pacific but, and I'm guessing as I've never thought about it before, it can only support FP that can fit on it. Many people find an isolated dot base and park a disbanded AV, flying in patrol a/c to operate from the dot base. Supply is required on the AV to maintain ops unless it is also at a base with it's own supply.


The part about the FP or Patrol aircraft having to fit on the AV is not correct. Some AVs can carry a few aircraft but most Allied ones do not.


The statement is correct when not in a base which is what I meant by it. Forgot the that, I was primarily thinking Japan as that's who I'm currently playing.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 4
RE: Simple Newpe Question - Tenders - 11/27/2017 7:58:28 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Even when the base has supply, if the AF level is low the seaplanes will draw supply from the AV and the AV must replenish from the base eventually. At around level 4 or 5 AF the seaplanes seem to switch to using base supply, but still use the aircraft maintenance of the AV.


I wondered about that but the evidence in my current game does not back it up. The AV at Milli has not used any of it's onboard supply since it's been there. I have other AVs at similar sized bases, Wake for instance where the AV did use it's supply but not since I shipped in some more. Now might that have something to do with there being land based AV support in the bases as well?






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 5
RE: Simple Newpe Question - Tenders - 11/27/2017 11:14:07 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H


quote:

ORIGINAL: jbdenney

But what about a seaplane tender? To act as a seaplane base does the tender have to be in a TF or just present in the base? Also can it be a seaplane base in a non-base hex, and if so does it stay in a TF which remains on station?


Just present. FP/patrols do not have to be based on the AV. An AV can be anywhere even in the middle of the Pacific but, and I'm guessing as I've never thought about it before, it can only support FP that can fit on it. Many people find an isolated dot base and park a disbanded AV, flying in patrol a/c to operate from the dot base. Supply is required on the AV to maintain ops unless it is also at a base with it's own supply.


The part about the FP or Patrol aircraft having to fit on the AV is not correct. Some AVs can carry a few aircraft but most Allied ones do not.


The statement is correct when not in a base which is what I meant by it. Forgot the that, I was primarily thinking Japan as that's who I'm currently playing.


The only way float planes can operate from a ship that is not at a base (at least a dot base) the ship must have CAPACITY to both carry AND operate seaplanes.

Unlike the Japanese side, the vast majority of Allied seaplane tenders have NO capacity to carry and operate seaplanes at sea.

They all have seaplane Support, but only the Langley and Wright (4 capacity) have a capacity to carry and operate seaplanes for the Americans and a couple of very small, very short legged Dutch AVPs, I believe the Arend class IIRC, have capacities of one.

All other Allied seaplane tenders must be at a base (at least a dot) to provide seaplane support.

Unlike minefield tenders, which are a special case, they do not need to be disbanded into the port to function, although they can be.

_____________________________

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Post #: 6
RE: Simple Newpe Question - Tenders - 11/27/2017 1:45:33 PM   
jbdenney

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 3/13/2008
Status: offline 		The answer about "Unlike minefield tenders, which are a special case, they do not need to be disbanded into the port to function, although they can be." answers the issue that first got me to asking. I am going through the "Allied Setup Spread Sheet" that I found on this site. When it creates a TF with a Mine Tender it always states "Disband" to support a mine field at the base but when sending a Seaplane support TF it does not include "Disband"

So if I get the over all idea - all tenders (except mine tenders)can function in a base either in or not in a TF.
Minefield tenders cannot maintain minefields while in a TF.
Also I assume that Local Minesweepers must be in a TF to sweep mines in a base hex - am I correct on this?

Thanks

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 7
RE: Simple Newpe Question - Tenders - 11/27/2017 3:43:01 PM   
adarbrauner

 

Posts: 1496
Joined: 11/3/2016
From: Zichron Yaaqov, Israel; Before, Treviso, Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H


quote:

ORIGINAL: jbdenney

But what about a seaplane tender? To act as a seaplane base does the tender have to be in a TF or just present in the base? Also can it be a seaplane base in a non-base hex, and if so does it stay in a TF which remains on station?


Just present. FP/patrols do not have to be based on the AV. An AV can be anywhere even in the middle of the Pacific but, and I'm guessing as I've never thought about it before, it can only support FP that can fit on it. Many people find an isolated dot base and park a disbanded AV, flying in patrol a/c to operate from the dot base. Supply is required on the AV to maintain ops unless it is also at a base with it's own supply.



Actually I have a case where an AV, supply loaded and disbanded (in a dot location) isn't seemingly able to serve an Emily 4E hydroplane unit...
Actually is weird, the hydros "refused" to fly any mission for a long long time, even though none of them showed signed of damage/maintenance need, until based somewhere else.

I was very puzzled and could not find an explanation to this yet, rather than the AV was not able to serve this big plane...that sounds weird though...

Any explanation please?

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 8
RE: Simple Newpe Question - Tenders - 11/27/2017 3:44:43 PM   
adarbrauner

 

Posts: 1496
Joined: 11/3/2016
From: Zichron Yaaqov, Israel; Before, Treviso, Italy
Status: offline 		BBfanboy, is that a Yamato or a Nelson in your "avatar"?

(in reply to adarbrauner)
Post #: 9
RE: Simple Newpe Question - Tenders - 11/27/2017 4:19:00 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

BBfanboy, is that a Yamato or a Nelson in your "avatar"?

French BC Strasbourg.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 11/27/2017 4:32:11 PM >

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to adarbrauner)
Post #: 10
RE: Simple Newpe Question - Tenders - 11/27/2017 4:29:05 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H


quote:

ORIGINAL: jbdenney

But what about a seaplane tender? To act as a seaplane base does the tender have to be in a TF or just present in the base? Also can it be a seaplane base in a non-base hex, and if so does it stay in a TF which remains on station?


Just present. FP/patrols do not have to be based on the AV. An AV can be anywhere even in the middle of the Pacific but, and I'm guessing as I've never thought about it before, it can only support FP that can fit on it. Many people find an isolated dot base and park a disbanded AV, flying in patrol a/c to operate from the dot base. Supply is required on the AV to maintain ops unless it is also at a base with it's own supply.



Actually I have a case where an AV, supply loaded and disbanded (in a dot location) isn't seemingly able to serve an Emily 4E hydroplane unit...
Actually is weird, the hydros "refused" to fly any mission for a long long time, even though none of them showed signed of damage/maintenance need, until based somewhere else.

I was very puzzled and could not find an explanation to this yet, rather than the AV was not able to serve this big plane...that sounds weird though...

Any explanation please?

I am unsure if you are distinguishing between Float (pontoon) Planes and Patrol (flying boat) planes. The Japanese AVs might only be able to carry/operate FP types as opposed to gigantic 4E aircraft like the Emily and Mavis. They should be able to support the big patrol aircraft while in a port.

On the other issue about whether a seaplane draws from an AV or the base, I suggest that either the presence of an airfield and wheels on some seaplanes (true amphib capability - means they can taxi up a ramp onto land) or auto-replenishment of tenders that affects what your are seeing in AV or base supply usage.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to adarbrauner)
Post #: 11
RE: Simple Newpe Question - Tenders - 11/27/2017 6:40:52 PM   
adarbrauner

 

Posts: 1496
Joined: 11/3/2016
From: Zichron Yaaqov, Israel; Before, Treviso, Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

BBfanboy, is that a Yamato or a Nelson in your "avatar"?

French BC Strasbourg.





Oh yeah, ok thanks. The mast had a sort of pagoda shape in the picture, but have never seen a picture of this of the Yamato. Also, the disposition of all the guns on the bow pointed to a Nelson design, even though the must appeared bigger, and the bow itself longer than those of the Nelson, and with a line resambling that of Japanese high sea ships, therefore the doubt; but, alas, yes, Dunkerque class.

< Message edited by adarbrauner -- 11/27/2017 6:41:31 PM >

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 12
RE: Simple Newpe Question - Tenders - 11/27/2017 6:43:58 PM   
adarbrauner

 

Posts: 1496
Joined: 11/3/2016
From: Zichron Yaaqov, Israel; Before, Treviso, Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris H


quote:

ORIGINAL: jbdenney

But what about a seaplane tender? To act as a seaplane base does the tender have to be in a TF or just present in the base? Also can it be a seaplane base in a non-base hex, and if so does it stay in a TF which remains on station?


Just present. FP/patrols do not have to be based on the AV. An AV can be anywhere even in the middle of the Pacific but, and I'm guessing as I've never thought about it before, it can only support FP that can fit on it. Many people find an isolated dot base and park a disbanded AV, flying in patrol a/c to operate from the dot base. Supply is required on the AV to maintain ops unless it is also at a base with it's own supply.



Actually I have a case where an AV, supply loaded and disbanded (in a dot location) isn't seemingly able to serve an Emily 4E hydroplane unit...
Actually is weird, the hydros "refused" to fly any mission for a long long time, even though none of them showed signed of damage/maintenance need, until based somewhere else.

I was very puzzled and could not find an explanation to this yet, rather than the AV was not able to serve this big plane...that sounds weird though...

Any explanation please?

I am unsure if you are distinguishing between Float (pontoon) Planes and Patrol (flying boat) planes. The Japanese AVs might only be able to carry/operate FP types as opposed to gigantic 4E aircraft like the Emily and Mavis. They should be able to support the big patrol aircraft while in a port.



Solution I suspected as well (even though not sure historically correct), but not checked it yet...

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 13
RE: Simple Newpe Question - Tenders - 11/27/2017 7:32:50 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jbdenney

The answer about "Unlike minefield tenders, which are a special case, they do not need to be disbanded into the port to function, although they can be." answers the issue that first got me to asking. I am going through the "Allied Setup Spread Sheet" that I found on this site. When it creates a TF with a Mine Tender it always states "Disband" to support a mine field at the base but when sending a Seaplane support TF it does not include "Disband"

So if I get the over all idea - all tenders (except mine tenders)can function in a base either in or not in a TF.
Minefield tenders cannot maintain minefields while in a TF.
Also I assume that Local Minesweepers must be in a TF to sweep mines in a base hex - am I correct on this?

Thanks



Yes, local minesweepers need to be in a TF to perform. I set up a minesweeping and an antisubmarine TF with a one hex patrol pattern in the port for every port I am operating out of as standard port maintenance.

The TF get named Noumea ASW and Noumea MSW as an example for Noumea. That way when I'm sweeping through examining TFs at ports my maintenance TFs don't get grabbed by me for other tasks of opportunity.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 11/27/2017 7:34:52 PM >

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Post #: 14
RE: Simple Newpe Question - Tenders - 11/27/2017 11:22:26 PM   
rustysi


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From: LI, NY
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quote:

Actually I have a case where an AV, supply loaded and disbanded (in a dot location) isn't seemingly able to serve an Emily 4E hydroplane unit...


Japanese AV's will support any water borne A/C within their support levels if supplied and their damage levels are below certain limits.

quote:

Also I assume that Local Minesweepers must be in a TF to sweep mines in a base hex - am I correct on this?


No, AMc's do not have to be in a TF to sweep mines in their respective bases. They will automatically form a TF, sweep, and disband 'behind the scene' in the base they are located.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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Post #: 15
RE: Simple Newpe Question - Tenders - 11/29/2017 4:24:33 AM   
Kull


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

No, AMc's do not have to be in a TF to sweep mines in their respective bases. They will automatically form a TF, sweep, and disband 'behind the scene' in the base they are located.


No. RTM pages 136-137


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Post #: 16
RE: Simple Newpe Question - Tenders - 11/29/2017 6:57:23 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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From: Cottesmore, Rutland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

No, AMc's do not have to be in a TF to sweep mines in their respective bases. They will automatically form a TF, sweep, and disband 'behind the scene' in the base they are located.


No. RTM pages 136-137



...and I can see nothing in the Beta changes to say otherwise. ACM can however, but they do consume fuel.

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 17
RE: Simple Newpe Question - Tenders - 11/29/2017 11:12:03 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
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From: LI, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

No, AMc's do not have to be in a TF to sweep mines in their respective bases. They will automatically form a TF, sweep, and disband 'behind the scene' in the base they are located.


No. RTM pages 136-137


Well that's the way I've done it and I've had no problem. AMc's disbanded in a port hex will sweep mines. Just as ACM's will tend mines from within a base. Don't know what else to say.


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 18
RE: Simple Newpe Question - Tenders - 11/29/2017 11:23:55 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
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From: LI, NY
Status: offline 		http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3839760&mpage=1&key=AMc&#

Read this and related posts.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 19
RE: Simple Newpe Question - Tenders - 7/26/2021 10:39:48 PM   
ggeilman

 

Posts: 107
Joined: 12/19/2017
Status: offline 		So I am unclear as to what to do with it once it gets there:

Create Support TF, to Billiton, Home Port: Billiton (Set up Seaplane base at Billiton)

The ship is now at Billiton, now what?

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 20
RE: Simple Newpe Question - Tenders - 7/26/2021 10:56:05 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ggeilman

So I am unclear as to what to do with it once it gets there:

Create Support TF, to Billiton, Home Port: Billiton (Set up Seaplane base at Billiton)

The ship is now at Billiton, now what?


That depends upon what you what to do.

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Post #: 21
RE: Simple Newpe Question - Tenders - 7/26/2021 11:37:36 PM   
Timotheus

 

Posts: 481
Joined: 12/13/2013
Status: offline 		I just want to paste this masterpiece, and you gave me an occasion.

What to do with all those tenders click me

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Post #: 22
RE: Simple Newpe Question - Tenders - 7/27/2021 3:51:51 AM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
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From: El Paso, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ggeilman

So I am unclear as to what to do with it once it gets there:

Create Support TF, to Billiton, Home Port: Billiton (Set up Seaplane base at Billiton)

The ship is now at Billiton, now what?


Disband it. If you look at the Billiton Base screen, you'll see it has no air support capability. But after you move AVP Poolster there and disband it, the base (or rather the AVP) will now support a small floatplane unit....which - as the Dutch - you have many of. And that's a good location to place some floatplanes who can search and identify incoming enemy Task Forces.

< Message edited by Kull -- 7/27/2021 3:52:23 AM >

_____________________________

AE-Japan Setup

AE-Allied Setup

Japan Air-Engine Plan

(in reply to ggeilman)
Post #: 23
RE: Simple Newpe Question - Tenders - 7/27/2021 11:31:05 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

quote:

ORIGINAL: ggeilman

So I am unclear as to what to do with it once it gets there:

Create Support TF, to Billiton, Home Port: Billiton (Set up Seaplane base at Billiton)

The ship is now at Billiton, now what?


Disband it. If you look at the Billiton Base screen, you'll see it has no air support capability. But after you move AVP Poolster there and disband it, the base (or rather the AVP) will now support a small floatplane unit....which - as the Dutch - you have many of. And that's a good location to place some floatplanes who can search and identify incoming enemy Task Forces.


It doesn't have to be disbanded, but it will be safer if it does.

Float Plane and Flying Boat support derived from Float Plane Tenders is added to the overall Base AV support numbers whether, or not the ships are disbanded, or in Task Forces.

The benefit derived from being disbanded is being hidden from Naval Search and opportunistic Naval Air Attack, not to mention submarine attack. Being disbanded requires the opposing force to Bomb, or Bombard the port to get at them.

_____________________________

Hans


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Post #: 24
RE: Simple Newpe Question - Tenders - 7/28/2021 12:45:08 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		Just to be clear - the + air support added by an AV/AVD/AVP is only usable by float planes or patrol aircraft that land on the water. It does not help with LBA.

EDIT: I should add that air support in an LCU at the base WILL work on patrol and float planes stationed at the base. It might require at least a level 1 Port so that the aircraft on the water can move up to a dock for servicing. Some Patrol aircraft are amphibians, able to taxi up onto land. Later models of the PBY Catalina can do this.

About being disbanded in port - the enemy would normally have to fly a recon flight over the base to know the AV type was there, but might deduce which base the patrol planes are coming from by looking at the detection level on the shipping he has in the area.

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 7/28/2021 12:57:32 AM >

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Post #: 25
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