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defending terrain check - 1/3/2018 4:14:28 PM   
gwgardner

 

Posts: 6722
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline 		I asked this in another thread on counter values, but it will perhaps get obscured, so I hope it's ok to repeat the question here:

From the manual, 'defending terrain check' equals defense strength modified by terrain.

However, when I select that info to appear on the counters, I see that the defending terain check value is always less than just 'defense strength.' The terrain effects chart makes terrain a defense multiplier, so I would think the 'defending terrain check' value would always be higher than 'defense strength.'

Can someone explain why the defending terrain check value is always less than defense strength?
Post #: 1
RE: defending terrain check - 1/3/2018 4:23:51 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

I asked this in another thread on counter values, but it will perhaps get obscured, so I hope it's ok to repeat the question here:

From the manual, 'defending terrain check' equals defense strength modified by terrain.

However, when I select that info to appear on the counters, I see that the defending terain check value is always less than just 'defense strength.' The terrain effects chart makes terrain a defense multiplier, so I would think the 'defending terrain check' value would always be higher than 'defense strength.'

Can someone explain why the defending terrain check value is always less than defense strength?

Ther's a thread already - http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4381549

On-top of that, I am not sure if I already posted it, have a look at: https://mauzesblog.wordpress.com/category/toaw/page/4/

Klink, Oberst

< Message edited by Oberst_Klink -- 1/3/2018 4:24:53 PM >

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(in reply to gwgardner)
Post #: 2
RE: defending terrain check - 1/3/2018 4:48:17 PM   
gwgardner

 

Posts: 6722
Joined: 4/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink


Ther's a thread already - http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4381549

On-top of that, I am not sure if I already posted it, have a look at: https://mauzesblog.wordpress.com/category/toaw/page/4/

Klink, Oberst


That thread doesn't actually define what the term means, it just quotes the manual, same as I did.

Thanks for the link to the explanation of how terrain affects combat. I do understand that. I just don't understand the term 'defending terrain check.'

(in reply to Oberst_Klink)
Post #: 3
RE: defending terrain check - 1/3/2018 5:04:44 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink


Ther's a thread already - http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4381549

On-top of that, I am not sure if I already posted it, have a look at: https://mauzesblog.wordpress.com/category/toaw/page/4/

Klink, Oberst


That thread doesn't actually define what the term means, it just quotes the manual, same as I did.

Thanks for the link to the explanation of how terrain affects combat. I do understand that. I just don't understand the term 'defending terrain check.'

quote:

defending terrain check

Well, it just is what the manual tells us - Defending Terrain Check – Defense strength modified by terrain. And I went through quite a view forums with a meta search via G00gle and B1ng, really. Sorry, Gary, but maybe uncle Bob pops up later and shed more light on it.

Klink, Oberst

< Message edited by Oberst_Klink -- 1/3/2018 5:19:10 PM >

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Post #: 4
RE: defending terrain check - 1/3/2018 8:04:47 PM   
Cabido

 

Posts: 243
Joined: 12/11/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

I asked this in another thread on counter values, but it will perhaps get obscured, so I hope it's ok to repeat the question here:

From the manual, 'defending terrain check' equals defense strength modified by terrain.

However, when I select that info to appear on the counters, I see that the defending terain check value is always less than just 'defense strength.' The terrain effects chart makes terrain a defense multiplier, so I would think the 'defending terrain check' value would always be higher than 'defense strength.'

Can someone explain why the defending terrain check value is always less than defense strength?


I use the Terrain Check because it gives you some idea of how your defense strength is affected by terrain, while moving through different terrain types, so you can see it increase by one third or decrease by half, and so on. But, like you, I'm still trying to figure its exact relation to the "base" Defense Strength, which is based only on the units inherent characteristics, i.e. equipment defense strengths, proficiency, readiness, supply.

At a first glance, I thought that the lower numbers could be due to a different 'order of magnitude', so as to fit the counter, since strengths like 35 multiplied by 3 would bear a three digits number, but now I did some tests and see this is not the case. Found some strange issues which I really can't explain.

I have set four copies of the same unit in the editor, changing just the equipment types and deployed all of them in open terrain, which shouldn't boost defense strengths.

These are the numbers I've got:

----------------------------------------- Attack Strength | Defense Strength | Armor Defense | Defending Terrain Check
1st Unit (armored transport only)--- 0 | 3 | 4 | 0
2nd Unit (infantry only)--------------- 5 | 9 | 0 | 3
3rd Unit (armored only - tanks)----- 37 | 7 | 7 | 15
4th Unit (artillery only)-------------- 18 | 2 | 0 | 10

The first unit 4 for Armored Defense - while we have just a 3 for defense - may be due to rounding (not sure). It is said in the manual that low numbers are rounded and may not be precise representation of the numbers used in the actual calculations, so I consider they must be taken as approximations.

Well, the strange thing comes from the ratio "Defense/Defending Terrain Check". Even if they don't use the same order of magnitude, here we can see huge boost to artillery defense in the open, a big boost to tanks in the open and a decrease for infantry. Were they just using a different order of magnitude, these ratios should be the same in the open, were there is no multiplier. Even in other terrain types, static equipment multipliers are usually lower than that for infantry and non-static weapon.

Also, armored trasnport is zeroed? Some kind of penalty?

I remember that all other factors were equal, since I used copies of the same unit and set all of them side by side in the open under clear weather.

Does someone has a hint for what is the rationale behind that?




< Message edited by Cabido -- 1/3/2018 8:06:46 PM >

(in reply to gwgardner)
Post #: 5
RE: defending terrain check - 1/4/2018 9:28:42 AM   
Martin_Goliath

 

Posts: 98
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline 		OK, I did some fiddling around with the additional unit numbers options, and there seems to be some mix-ups:
What is called "Anti-Air All" actually gives you "Attack" (the total attack strength).
The "Defending Terrain Check" actually gives you "Anti-Armor".
Probably a programming glitch, since "Anti-Air All" and "Attack" are next to each other in the selection, while "Anti-Armor" and "Defending Terrain Check" are the first and last entries in the list (ignoring the stacked alternatives).
I will post a pointer to this thread in Tech Support.

< Message edited by MarGol -- 1/4/2018 9:31:44 AM >

(in reply to Cabido)
Post #: 6
RE: defending terrain check - 1/4/2018 9:59:34 AM   
Martin_Goliath

 

Posts: 98
Joined: 7/27/2007
Status: offline 		I added some military police to get non-zero traffic control, and it turns out that "Anti-Fortification", "Bombardment Defense" and "Nuclear Bombardment" all actually give you the traffic Control value

(in reply to Martin_Goliath)
Post #: 7
RE: defending terrain check - 1/4/2018 4:21:21 PM   
Cabido

 

Posts: 243
Joined: 12/11/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarGol

OK, I did some fiddling around with the additional unit numbers options, and there seems to be some mix-ups:
What is called "Anti-Air All" actually gives you "Attack" (the total attack strength).
The "Defending Terrain Check" actually gives you "Anti-Armor".
Probably a programming glitch, since "Anti-Air All" and "Attack" are next to each other in the selection, while "Anti-Armor" and "Defending Terrain Check" are the first and last entries in the list (ignoring the stacked alternatives).
I will post a pointer to this thread in Tech Support.


Then we have Anti-Armor altered by terrain, since the number changes with terrain, as Defense would, but based on the multipliers for Defensive Anti Armor Strength, obviously. Now the higher artillery and tanks values make sense. Useful stuff to have Anti-Armor changed by terrain, but, imho, it would be really useful to have AP, AT and Defense modified by terrain inside brackets besides the unmodified values in the unit panel, so we could leave Attack and Defense on the counter and check AP,AT, Defense and their terrain based modifications in the panel.
Where is Defending Terrain Check. Could you identify it?

EDIT: I checked it. It isn't the same as Anti-Armor, since when Anti-Armor is selected, the value doesn't change when entering different terrain types. It seems to be Anti-Armor modified by terrain, since when in the open, it displays exactly the same as Anti-Armor, but when moving through different kinds of terrain, it gets a boost.
I know that the ideal is to keep the interface simple, but sometimes simpler can turn things more complex. If the counter displayed "Total Inherent Attack Strength" (AP + AT modified by proficiency, readiness and supply) and "Total Inherent Defense Strength" (Armor Defense + Soft Defense modified by proficiency, readiness and supply) so that we could have a hint on the unit overall inherent combat capacity, the unit panel could display AP [AP modified by terrain] + AT [AT modified by terrain] and Soft Defense [SD modified by terrain] + Armor Defense [AD modified by terrain] so we would have access to the most important constituents of the force displayed on the counter and the most important external modifiers. I don't think this is excessive and dismembering an abstract number in its most important (a little less abstract) constituents can help a lot in estimating the real value of your unit in a given situation.

< Message edited by Cabido -- 1/4/2018 5:37:26 PM >

(in reply to Martin_Goliath)
Post #: 8
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