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TOAW III Owners - 1/14/2018 4:04:09 PM   
warspite1


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Can I ask a favour of anyone that owns TOAW III please? Apparently the Expected reinforcements/withdrawals is correct for the Campaign For North Africa 1940-43 scenario in that version. I recall Olorin stating that the Australian 6th Division withdraw a brigade at a time but I need to know:

a) From when?
b) Is this pot luck or are the withdrawn units named i.e. which brigade at which specific time?
c) I'm looking for the withdrawal schedule for any 6th Division units from say Turn 36 - and not just brigades but supporting arms too.

Many thanks!!

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RE: TOAW III Owners - 1/14/2018 4:57:50 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Can I ask a favour of anyone that owns TOAW III please? Apparently the Expected reinforcements/withdrawals is correct for the Campaign For North Africa 1940-43 scenario in that version. I recall Olorin stating that the Australian 6th Division withdraw a brigade at a time but I need to know:

a) From when?
b) Is this pot luck or are the withdrawn units named i.e. which brigade at which specific time?
c) I'm looking for the withdrawal schedule for any 6th Division units from say Turn 36 - and not just brigades but supporting arms too.

Many thanks!!


part one:






Attachment (1)

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RE: TOAW III Owners - 1/14/2018 4:58:27 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Can I ask a favour of anyone that owns TOAW III please? Apparently the Expected reinforcements/withdrawals is correct for the Campaign For North Africa 1940-43 scenario in that version. I recall Olorin stating that the Australian 6th Division withdraw a brigade at a time but I need to know:

a) From when?
b) Is this pot luck or are the withdrawn units named i.e. which brigade at which specific time?
c) I'm looking for the withdrawal schedule for any 6th Division units from say Turn 36 - and not just brigades but supporting arms too.

Many thanks!!


part two:






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 3
RE: TOAW III Owners - 1/14/2018 6:06:37 PM   
Franciscus


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Is this correct ? The TOAW scenarios that come in TOW4 but are from TOAW3 have mistakes in the reinforcements/withdrawals schedule ?

All scenarios ?

Regards

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RE: TOAW III Owners - 1/14/2018 6:19:58 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

Is this correct ? The TOAW scenarios that come in TOW4 but are from TOAW3 have mistakes in the reinforcements/withdrawals schedule ?

All scenarios ?

Regards

Not that I am personally aware of it. Usually, if there were changes, regardless of III or IV, the active scenario designer would state them in the documentation. So, I'd take it with a pinch of salt.

Klink, Oberst

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RE: TOAW III Owners - 1/14/2018 6:27:38 PM   
Franciscus


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Well, then I would like Bob Cross to say something about what's up (if anything) with the North Africa scenarios, as I was about to start myself a 40-43 campaign...


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RE: TOAW III Owners - 1/14/2018 6:53:56 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

Is this correct ? The TOAW scenarios that come in TOW4 but are from TOAW3 have mistakes in the reinforcements/withdrawals schedule ?

All scenarios ?

Regards

Some withdrawals do not show up on the Expected Reinforcement dialog. No change to which units withdraw.

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RE: TOAW III Owners - 1/14/2018 7:21:38 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink


quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

Is this correct ? The TOAW scenarios that come in TOW4 but are from TOAW3 have mistakes in the reinforcements/withdrawals schedule ?

All scenarios ?

Regards

Not that I am personally aware of it. Usually, if there were changes, regardless of III or IV, the active scenario designer would state them in the documentation. So, I'd take it with a pinch of salt.

Klink, Oberst
warspite1

What? Are you suggesting I'm lying? What an arrogantly dismissive statement.....

Yes Franciscus, the Australian 6th Infantry's withdrawal is not showing on the schedule. I believe this problem may affect some others too but of that I am not certain as I haven't cross checked what I believe to be the case - However, of the missing Australians I am 100% certain, regardless of whatever anyone else may be personally aware of .


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RE: TOAW III Owners - 1/14/2018 7:24:50 PM   
warspite1


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From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Can I ask a favour of anyone that owns TOAW III please? Apparently the Expected reinforcements/withdrawals is correct for the Campaign For North Africa 1940-43 scenario in that version. I recall Olorin stating that the Australian 6th Division withdraw a brigade at a time but I need to know:

a) From when?
b) Is this pot luck or are the withdrawn units named i.e. which brigade at which specific time?
c) I'm looking for the withdrawal schedule for any 6th Division units from say Turn 36 - and not just brigades but supporting arms too.

Many thanks!!


part two:





warspite1

Thanks ever so much Lobster


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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 9
RE: TOAW III Owners - 1/14/2018 7:29:49 PM   
Franciscus


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Ups, I didn't mean to start a war

But it is clear that expected reinforcements/withdrawals do not all show up in the respective dialog, at least in the North African campaign scenario (s?)

So I would only like to know if this is going to be corrected - either if it is a scenario specific mistake or a conversion (3->4) bug...


Regards

< Message edited by Franciscus -- 1/14/2018 7:30:51 PM >


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RE: TOAW III Owners - 1/14/2018 9:11:42 PM   
DanNeely

 

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I could be mistaken, but I think it might be down to a limit of the TOAW engine/scenario capabilities. IIRC you can only schedule an arrival or departure turn using the simple mechanism that populates the expected reinforcement/withdrawal dialog. Having a unit both come and go requires the withdrawal to be done via an event. Event driven withdrawals (and deployments) aren't aren't shown in that dialog because they can be much more complex than just "turn X". (eg you could have a unit deploy/withdraw if location A was captured by side 1 on turn Z, and location B by side 1 on turn Y, and either location C was held by side 2 on turn X or location D was held by side 2 on turn X, or side 1 used theater option Has-5-conditions-I'm-not-listing-here before turn X-5.)

The word document attached to the scenario includes a reinforcement/withdrawal table that I believe is intended to capture the behavior that can't be covered fully in game.

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Is not [it] an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius

(in reply to Franciscus)
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RE: TOAW III Owners - 1/14/2018 9:34:35 PM   
Franciscus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DanNeely

I could be mistaken, but I think it might be down to a limit of the TOAW engine/scenario capabilities. IIRC you can only schedule an arrival or departure turn using the simple mechanism that populates the expected reinforcement/withdrawal dialog. Having a unit both come and go requires the withdrawal to be done via an event. Event driven withdrawals (and deployments) aren't aren't shown in that dialog because they can be much more complex than just "turn X". (eg you could have a unit deploy/withdraw if location A was captured by side 1 on turn Z, and location B by side 1 on turn Y, and either location C was held by side 2 on turn X or location D was held by side 2 on turn X, or side 1 used theater option Has-5-conditions-I'm-not-listing-here before turn X-5.)

The word document attached to the scenario includes a reinforcement/withdrawal table that I believe is intended to capture the behavior that can't be covered fully in game.



I understand your reasoning.

But, as Lobster posted, the missing withdrawals in TOAW4 version appear in TOAW3 version of the same scenario reinforcements dialog...

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RE: TOAW III Owners - 1/15/2018 7:03:10 AM   
warspite1


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From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus


quote:

ORIGINAL: DanNeely

I could be mistaken, but I think it might be down to a limit of the TOAW engine/scenario capabilities. IIRC you can only schedule an arrival or departure turn using the simple mechanism that populates the expected reinforcement/withdrawal dialog. Having a unit both come and go requires the withdrawal to be done via an event. Event driven withdrawals (and deployments) aren't aren't shown in that dialog because they can be much more complex than just "turn X". (eg you could have a unit deploy/withdraw if location A was captured by side 1 on turn Z, and location B by side 1 on turn Y, and either location C was held by side 2 on turn X or location D was held by side 2 on turn X, or side 1 used theater option Has-5-conditions-I'm-not-listing-here before turn X-5.)

The word document attached to the scenario includes a reinforcement/withdrawal table that I believe is intended to capture the behavior that can't be covered fully in game.



I understand your reasoning.

But, as Lobster posted, the missing withdrawals in TOAW4 version appear in TOAW3 version of the same scenario reinforcements dialog...
warspite1

This is nothing to do with event driven withdrawals. The 6th Australian Division, like the 2nd New Zealand Division, was withdrawn for the ill-fated expedition to Greece.

In game, this division's withdrawal does not appear on the unit Reinforcement Table. If people want to take what I say "with a pinch of salt" then fine they can do that. But Bob Cross has confirmed what I've said in this thread and Olorin has confirmed what I've said, in my original AAR. There is no need for theories. The data, across two reference points (the Reinforcement Table and the Documentation) is simply missing and/or incomplete. That is all. I only started this thread because I need to know for my current PBEM when exactly I'm going to be losing one of my key units!!

The schedule from TOAW III helpfully provided by Lobster indicates that the units of the division disappear between turns 47 and 51. This confirms what Olorin stated about withdrawal by brigade (rather than the division as a whole). Armed with that information, if I then refer to the Documentation, I can see that this mentions various withdrawals on turn 47, 49 and 51 - although only the withdrawal on Turn 49 has any mention of '6th Aus Div' and there is no mention of which brigade is withdrawn. Because of what people have said, I now know that the two blank withdrawals either side also refer to the Australians but to an unsuspecting player could mean anything. Indeed, as I found when playing for the first time, I only looked at the Reinforcement Table (there was no obvious need to check whether this would have been incorrect by referring also to the Documentation) and assumed this was correct. When playing the AI then ok that's annoying. When playing a human player this sort of thing is a game changer.

So its really simple. As to the Australian 6th Infantry Division, the reinforcement schedule in TOAW IV is incorrect and the documentation is only partially complete.

So yes, like Franciscus I too am hoping that this can be fixed in a patch soon.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 1/15/2018 7:14:53 AM >


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RE: TOAW III Owners - 1/21/2018 5:07:18 AM   
warspite1


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Sorry to be a pain, but can anyone with access to TOAW III have a look at the 9th Australian Division in the CFNA 1940-43 secnario. I am looking to see if the Aussie units from this division disappear between turn 65 and say 90.

I am now on Turn 77 and I believe that at some point 24th Brigade (and its 3 battalions) and the divisional supporting artillery, anti-tank and AA went away from about turn 65 onwards. I suspect the two remaining battalions - the 20th and 26th - will be going in the coming weeks but this doesn't show on the reinforcement and withdrawal schedule. Once again the documentation is unclear and so it would be good to see the schedule so I can fill in the blanks

Thanks in advance.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 1/21/2018 5:11:36 AM >


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Post #: 14
RE: TOAW III Owners - 1/21/2018 6:10:20 AM   
Nicholas Bell

 

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Only looks like the 70th is being pulled out.





Attachment (1)

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RE: TOAW III Owners - 1/21/2018 6:14:48 AM   
warspite1


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Hi - thanks for this but I think this is the wrong scenario as the dates don't correspond. The game scenario is Campaign For North Africa 40D-43, I'm at turn 77 and its the beginning of September 1941. (it would have helped if I'd made that clear - sorry).

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Post #: 16
RE: TOAW III Owners - 1/21/2018 3:57:16 PM   
Nicholas Bell

 

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I see the 6th Aus leaving turn 27, the 70th turn 47-49, and the Polish Bde withdrawing turn 105 - early December. That's it in the 40D-43 scenario for this period.

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RE: TOAW III Owners - 1/21/2018 5:07:55 PM   
warspite1


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Okay thanks for looking - obviously bigger issues than just the Aus 6th, but now the Aus 7th too.

Below to prove I'm not going mad here are those units on the map on turn 67 and by turn 77 one brigade and the support units had gone - no warning.

Not the sort of info one wants to be without in a PBEM.




Attachment (1)

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 18
RE: TOAW III Owners - 1/21/2018 5:25:12 PM   
Franciscus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus

Is this correct ? The TOAW scenarios that come in TOW4 but are from TOAW3 have mistakes in the reinforcements/withdrawals schedule ?

All scenarios ?

Regards

Some withdrawals do not show up on the Expected Reinforcement dialog. No change to which units withdraw.


So the question remains...

Why ???


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RE: TOAW III Owners - 1/21/2018 8:20:21 PM   
larryfulkerson


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I've always thought it rude to take units away without any warning
or even a thank you.

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RE: TOAW III Owners - 1/22/2018 1:30:20 PM   
B455

 

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This is exactly what I was talking about in another thread. I noticed event and reinforcement/withdrawal issues when upgrading one of my old scenario to TOAW IV and playing it out myself. These things need to be checked by designer. It simply is not loading up old stuff with the editor, save them as a "TOAW IV" scenario and call it a day. No, I don´t blame anyone here just try to point out importance of quality control. TOAW IV is fine game, but its reputation rely on quality of scenarios. I suppose ALL and EACH scenario that comes with the game are thoroughly playtested prior to release, but scenarios freely available in the net necessarily are not. Something to keep in mind when firing up a PBEM game.

Regards,
B455

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Post #: 21
RE: TOAW III Owners - 1/23/2018 4:57:28 PM   
Franciscus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: B455

This is exactly what I was talking about in another thread. I noticed event and reinforcement/withdrawal issues when upgrading one of my old scenario to TOAW IV and playing it out myself. These things need to be checked by designer. It simply is not loading up old stuff with the editor, save them as a "TOAW IV" scenario and call it a day. No, I don´t blame anyone here just try to point out importance of quality control. TOAW IV is fine game, but its reputation rely on quality of scenarios. I suppose ALL and EACH scenario that comes with the game are thoroughly playtested prior to release, but scenarios freely available in the net necessarily are not. Something to keep in mind when firing up a PBEM game.

Regards,
B455


Yes, but all CFNA scenarios come with the stock game...although from the notes they are all versions from TOAW3.

The issues seem like a bug of the engine conversion TOAW 3>4...

Regards

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RE: TOAW III Owners - 1/23/2018 7:19:31 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Franciscus


quote:

ORIGINAL: B455

This is exactly what I was talking about in another thread. I noticed event and reinforcement/withdrawal issues when upgrading one of my old scenario to TOAW IV and playing it out myself. These things need to be checked by designer. It simply is not loading up old stuff with the editor, save them as a "TOAW IV" scenario and call it a day. No, I don´t blame anyone here just try to point out importance of quality control. TOAW IV is fine game, but its reputation rely on quality of scenarios. I suppose ALL and EACH scenario that comes with the game are thoroughly playtested prior to release, but scenarios freely available in the net necessarily are not. Something to keep in mind when firing up a PBEM game.

Regards,
B455


Yes, but all CFNA scenarios come with the stock game...although from the notes they are all versions from TOAW3.

The issues seem like a bug of the engine conversion TOAW 3>4...

Regards

As for CFNA... Bob is a very thorough chap, but perhaps the following might have been a tad misleading:

This version is for TOAW III version 3.5. A number of new editor features in that update are exploited to refine the supply system and naval operations.

3.5+ was actually the development version of what's now TOAW IV. As for the reinforcement issues and other glitches, I don't know. My ad-hoc conversions of various scenarios did work fine, incl. the applied tweaks, e.g. RFC Skalar, Road Movement Divisor, etc.

Just my 2 Pfennigs worth.

Klink, Oberst

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Post #: 23
RE: TOAW III Owners - 1/24/2018 12:10:04 AM   
DanNeely

 

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At this point with a well documented discrepancy between how the scenario is displaying in III vs IV has anyone posted something in the bug forum, or is everyone hoping that Ralph will see it here and look into it?

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Is not [it] an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
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Post #: 24
RE: TOAW III Owners - 1/24/2018 5:40:05 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DanNeely

At this point with a well documented discrepancy between how the scenario is displaying in III vs IV has anyone posted something in the bug forum, or is everyone hoping that Ralph will see it here and look into it?
warspite1

I'm new to this community, so I've no idea who Ralph is sorry.

But I've posted here and in my two AAR. Curtis Lemay (Bob Cross) has picked up on this in both this thread and the AAR - and according to the manual he is a big cheese on this project - so assumed it is covered.


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Post #: 25
RE: TOAW III Owners - 1/24/2018 10:59:06 PM   
DanNeely

 

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Ralph Tricky's been doing development on it since toaw 3.

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Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man ... weighing all things in the balance of reason?
Is not [it] an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 26
RE: TOAW III Owners - 2/11/2018 3:10:18 PM   
warspite1


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From: England
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Gents really sorry to be a pain but I need further assistance please.

The Commonwealth have so few units they simply can't afford to be taken by surprise and have units desperately guarding somewhere or attacking somewhere suddenly to be taken away.

I'm playing Campaign For North Africa 1940-43. It's Turn 96.

According to the Documentation I lose:

Nothing else between now and turn 102 (except Australians but that is now covered) - This is wrong as the Expected Reinforcements schedule (ERS) shows 3 x 10th Indian Brigade on Turn 97.
Then:
4 x Infantry on Turn 103 - nothing showing on ERS
2 x Infantry on Turn 105 - nothing showing on ERS

Then nothing until
2 x Infantry on Turn 127 - nothing showing on ERS
The Poles then go on turn 129 - This is confirmed on the ERS.

Could I please ask any TOAW III owners out there, what the Commonwealth lose between Turn 96 and 128 please?

Thank-you!!

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 2/11/2018 3:11:19 PM >


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Post #: 27
RE: TOAW III Owners - 2/11/2018 3:50:09 PM   
Nicholas Bell

 

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Here you go. "D" version of the scenario.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 28
RE: TOAW III Owners - 2/11/2018 4:03:24 PM   
warspite1


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Thanks Nicholas - we are not playing the 'D' game and I think this is the later start game and so I would need earlier turns i.e. from August 1941.... sorry

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Post #: 29
RE: TOAW III Owners - 2/12/2018 4:07:29 AM   
Nicholas Bell

 

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I don't mind assisting, but last time you wanted the "D" version which I why I went that route. Anyway, here's a zip with the reinforcement screens for the rest of the scenario. I skipped a few at the end and included only those with withdrawals.

Attachment (1)

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