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RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA at start

 
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RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/6/2018 2:41:30 PM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		Week 2

At the land bridge




The Axis advance in the south continues. Kiev not yet in his sights.


(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 31
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/6/2018 4:11:30 PM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		Week 3
July 3-9 1941

Industrial Evacuations

The first significant cluster of factories starting to be in range of German motorized units are the 5 heavy industry and 16 arms at Dnepropetrovsk.



I will take those out by first entering the starting railcap on my sheet of 143,414 and entering the relevant numbers. I finally take them off the evacuation progress board. There is a separate heavy industry sheet not shown.



I will leave it at that for the turn, with 81% of railcap of week 3 committed to evacuations and the remaining 19% to units.

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 32
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/7/2018 2:14:25 AM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		Week 3
3-9 July 41

Action at Vitebsk



There is little doubt as to the direction of the main German drive. There was no discernible movement of their forces in the direction of Leningrad. 16th and 18th Armies of Army Group North are moving on Velikye Luki. The SS Wiking Division normally deployed to the south is part of the move in the center.

Col Gen Guderian changes roles and takes over 57th Panzer Corps from General A. Kuntzen. No less than seven divisions show up in multiple combat results under that corps, so it would seem HLYA is using his admin points to get around command limits for the panzer corps. That will have to be taken that into account going forward. A pocket at Vitebsk bags several divisions which could be freed, but I hesitate to sacrifice one of the few high morale rifle divisions to accomplish that. Since it is clear at this stage that an all out drive for Moscow is in progress, adjustments will be made accordingly.

First, ground will have to be given up in the area of the land bridge without delay. Otherwise there are easily enough panzer and motorized divisions to push through what defensive lines are in place and the SS Wiking likely still has a good supply of fuel at this stage.

Second, depending on what happens on the south, if the Axis forces do not make a significant lodgement over the Dnepr next week, then factory evacuations will begin in and around Moscow. The Germans may end up missing the Wiking division that can force factory evacuations in the south by its mere presence.

Third, General Armii Zhukov will operate in the center along with Generals Tolbukhin, Rokossovsky, Zakharov this week. Generals Konev, Malinovsky and Purkaev will likely be committed to the center next week. This will put all the "A-List" leaders into the line opposing his push.

Fourth, the Western Front command team of Pavlov and Kopets will be replaced next week.

Fifth, priority for high morale divisions will go to the Moscow sector.

Sixth, air power will concentrate along this axis next week.

Seventh, several Leningrad PM divisions were not sent south, but instead put into line against the Finns to impede any attempt they might make to cut off units on the frontier next week. They will be released once fighting starts where possible.

Lastly, I have a "Plan V" starting this week. The details will remain a mystery until HLYA encounters something he may not have expected, after which time all details will be revealed.




(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 33
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/7/2018 8:25:09 PM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		Air Situation

Most units that were sent to the reserves in the first week with a morale of 19 have recovered to about 46 and are moved back onto rear area bases for one more cycle. They will only gain 10 morale when sent back again, but it will be enough to restore them for front line duty in Week 5.

There are enough spare IL-2s to do a “U” upgrade status for a pair of I-153BS regiments that have the highest experience. In the early game, these other aircraft I’ve noticed that can get free upgrades:

DB-3B to IL-4
TB-3 to IL-4
SB-2 to Pe-2 which is not so much of an upgrade since the payloads are equal but the SB2 has better range. Of course, the SB-2 pools will eventually run out, needing this done.
I-15bis to MiG-3

Many units still have high fatigue levels, even in the reserve. That should work itself out shortly.

HLYA is keeping his airpower centralized around Vilnius and Bessarabia and consequently back somewhat from the front lines.

The Long Range Air Command has consolidated all bases southwest of Moscow and reinforced its long range bomber fleet.

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 34
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/7/2018 8:56:21 PM   
smokindave34


Posts: 877
Joined: 1/15/2008
Status: offline 		Even with Guderian in charge of a panzer corps wouldn't HLYA incur penalties or failed leader rolls with 7 divisions attached to the corps? Or is he just rotating units in an out of that particular panzer corps for attacks?

I'm assuming the 'V' in "Plan V" stands for Victory!

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 35
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/7/2018 9:28:54 PM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		I'm pretty sure he's rotating units in and out with admin points. Otherwise, giving Guderian a corps wouldn't make sense if HLYA was going to overload it.


(in reply to smokindave34)
Post #: 36
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/7/2018 10:07:07 PM   
smokindave34


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Status: offline 		I hope "Schneller Heinz" took the demotion well

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Post #: 37
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/9/2018 3:16:24 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: smokindave34

I hope "Schneller Heinz" took the demotion well


Indeed if HLYA has done what I think he has done - Heinz will now be a leader of a panzer group. If you put your best panzer leaders in the corps, you put your next best panzer leaders in the panzer army HQs. Question is would Guderian appreciate seeing his subordinate become his superior?

(in reply to smokindave34)
Post #: 38
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/9/2018 3:24:24 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
SB-2 to Pe-2 which is not so much of an upgrade since the payloads are equal but the SB2 has better range. Of course, the SB-2 pools will eventually run out, needing this done.


If the SB-2 is better, or at least more useful for your playstyle, would it be worth giving the U option to the least experienced groups first and work upwards rather than starting with most experienced?

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 39
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/9/2018 3:40:04 PM   
M60A3TTS


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Status: offline 		A pullback to Smolensk would normally be in order for the Western Front. But with all that HLYA has committed to the center even with low fuel the threat of further encirclements remains real. As much as I hate to do it, a withdrawal more to the east takes place. Week 4 will see the arrival of Reserve Front and the first AP bonus with it, so hopefully a stiffer defense can be pulled together as more leaders are swapped out and more units arrive.



In the south, Kiev remained occupied and the Dnepr Line extended slightly.




(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 40
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/9/2018 3:50:22 PM   
M60A3TTS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
SB-2 to Pe-2 which is not so much of an upgrade since the payloads are equal but the SB2 has better range. Of course, the SB-2 pools will eventually run out, needing this done.


If the SB-2 is better, or at least more useful for your playstyle, would it be worth giving the U option to the least experienced groups first and work upwards rather than starting with most experienced?



At this stage, my expectation is that the Pe-2 and SB-2 as "fast bombers" will fill the same role of attacking ground targets from within the Frontal Air Commands. As HLYA posted in another thread, I did not conduct any bombing this week. This was due to the higher fatigue levels of many air units. Next week, many of these will be at morale 50+ and less fatigued. Since they will be deploying from reserves over the next week or two, there will probably not be significant VVS activity then either. After that, full scale air operations should be expected.

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Post #: 41
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/9/2018 4:20:19 PM   
Dinglir


Posts: 620
Joined: 3/10/2016
Status: offline 		Is your assessment that the two aircraft has about the same survivability, or is it that you just do not care?

Are you using them for day or night bombing?

_____________________________

To be is to do -- Socrates
To do is to be -- Jean-Paul Sartre
Do be do be do -- Frank Sinatra

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 42
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/9/2018 5:00:40 PM   
ericv

 

Posts: 325
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Status: offline 		I have always tried to get the good soviet commanders as far away from the action as possible in the early weeks. Many times, they end up getting sacked thereby losing valuable rating points.

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Post #: 43
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/9/2018 5:24:22 PM   
M60A3TTS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dinglir

Is your assessment that the two aircraft has about the same survivability, or is it that you just do not care?

Are you using them for day or night bombing?


The Pe-2 would seem to have more survivability, but I would still want the SB-2 force used up to the greatest extent. As the pools run low, I would do the Upgrade "U" for the highest experienced units, just as I did last turn with I-153BS.

Fast bombers for day and long range for night is the current plan. That may be influenced from time to time depending on whether he is flying CAP or not.

(in reply to Dinglir)
Post #: 44
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/9/2018 5:27:02 PM   
M60A3TTS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ericv

I have always tried to get the good soviet commanders as far away from the action as possible in the early weeks. Many times, they end up getting sacked thereby losing valuable rating points.


HLYA is all about the early game. He will do everything he can to see the war over before winter comes. I can't afford to leave CV off the table even if it costs some excellent generals a bit of their rating.

(in reply to ericv)
Post #: 45
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/11/2018 6:10:55 PM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		Week 4-- 10-16 July 1941


Industrial Evacuations take place with 16 total arms at Moscow and Poltava and 4 heavy industry at Kiev.

Air Situation

A transfer of fast bombers to Western Air Command is the first step in preparation for attacks against German ground troops. The attacks reveal no Luftwaffe CAP flying, so unescorted missions from the fast and long range bomber forces take place in two battle zones. Long Range Air Command with IL-4, DB-3B and TB-3 bombers attacks ground units west of Smolensk, along with 8 SB-2 regiments of Western Air Command. A second set of attacks is mounted near Cherkassy in the south by Southwestern and Southern Air Commands with both long range and fast bombers where the Axis appears ready to mount a river crossing. 48 ground missions are conducted vs the Axis 20.

Most enemy air activity are recon missions performed by mid-range recon planes. None of the short range types are evident. His cluster of airbases remain well back from the front.

Air units that have recovered sufficient morale are brought up to counter Axis moves anticipated next week. Only 10 of 318 air units are less than 50 morale.

Black Sea Fleet Air command withdraws from Crimea and moves to support from the Kuban region. SU-2 and MiG 3 will be assigned there later and will have range to cover Sevastopol.

There are two aircraft types that are not going to see much in the way of commitment, I-153 and I-15BS biplane FBs. They will continue to be morale cycled until they are upgraded.






< Message edited by M60A3TTS -- 2/11/2018 6:11:33 PM >

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Post #: 46
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/13/2018 11:48:21 PM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		Ground situation

The Finnish attack along the border does not go as well as hoped and we still have divisions in a position to be cut off next week.



There is not a significant move against our units elsewhere as presumably some are already re-supplying

The defense near Pskov is totally inadequate at this stage and a turn north by even one panzer group could spell big trouble. There simply aren't enough units to cover every possible direction he may go.




The center has the largest buildup of arriving units as 20th, 24th, 39th and 31st Armies form Reserve Front.



A flurry of command changes accompany their arrival.

Western Front Pavlov D.>Zhukov G.
10th Army Golubev>Malinovsky R.
8th Army Sobennikov>Khozin M.
11th Army Morozov V. > Gordov V.
33rd Cavalry Army Onuprienko>Vasilevsky A.
34th Cavalry Army Pronin M. > Bobkin L.

Ivan Kopets of Western Air Command did not have the opportunity to be replaced and is executed instead.


In the south, the Dnepr is defended with additional units from Southern Front and a STAVKA mechanized corps staged to the east in order to protect Kharkov.



A few corps HQ are disbanded and some higher morale divisions swapped from divisions not on the main German axis of advance.


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Post #: 47
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/14/2018 1:00:28 AM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline 		The JanisJarvi looks secure . If a breakout does not occur and the Soviets are allowed to dig in .. the line will never be broken ..

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"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/22/2018 6:27:55 PM   
M60A3TTS


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Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		Week 5-- 17-23 July 1941

HLYA identifies the weakness at Pskov with the help of a recon blanket of the area as AGN thrusts north, crosses the Luga and takes Novgorod. In his move towards Leningrad with this “Pskov Grouping” are four panzer and two SS motorized divisions. It is the equivalent of two panzer corps but only the 41st being really identified in the area. Only four divisions are trapped here, but several more will certainly be trapped as well next week.

Most factories leave Leningrad as 83% of railcap this week is committed to this task. There are 10 arms remaining which will be the worst case loss should he cut the rail line at Mga next week. He has well fueled troops in the area, so it is quite within the realm of possibility. Beyond that, he will likely need time to push elements of 16th or 18th Armies to the Neva. The Finnish battles are going poorly and I would give myself an “F” for even trying to stem the tide. That move is going to cost a good 6-8 divisions needlessly.

In the center, no real action is apparent, so a HQBU is likely for at least one or two panzer corps. Guderian's 57th likely will be one of them. There are four potentially lined up to push center next week. Most of the Soviet rifle corps HQ are gone now, so with good army commanders there are decent strength rifle divisions in a number of areas under Western and Reserve Fronts. The difficulty is there just are not enough overall to cope with these high CV panzers. Retreat is necessary to some degree, but the amount of real estate in the rear is going to run out quickly. Reserve activations are set across the line. I start on a couple fortified zones close to Moscow.

In the south, he has committed 3, 47, 48 PanzerKorps with six panzer and three motorized divisions. Also in the area are GrossDeutschland MRR and 1st Cavalry Division. The 3rd Panzer Corps towards the rear is likely receiving a HQBU this turn. With two panzer corps having limited fuel at Dnepropetrovsk-Zaporozhye, I am assuming he will breach the Dnepr at that location. This will put him on a straight line towards Stalino and the strategic objective of Rostov. He could double back towards Cherkassy, but that would mean wasted fuel. For that reason, the defensive line near Kiev is very thin while relatively stronger as the line moves to the southeast. Only one of the four Soviet Army HQ have made it back from the Lvov pocket, so command and control is a bit of a challenge. I do have one mechanized corps under Krivoshein who is a decent armor commander assisting with the Dnepr defense. A STAVKA cavalry army is also available for defensive duties.

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 49
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/22/2018 6:34:20 PM   
M60A3TTS


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Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		Northern Situation



Center Situation



Southern Situation


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Post #: 50
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/22/2018 6:54:42 PM   
M60A3TTS


Posts: 4014
Joined: 5/13/2011
Status: offline 		Before covering the air situation, a couple spreadsheets I use here.

The first helps determine what type of aircraft numbers exist. One of the columns is TMAR, or theoretical maximum allowable in regiments. In the early game it should really be TMARB, 'B' for battalions. Essentially if all units were 100% strength, it is how many planes would be required. Comparing that to the aircraft available and in the pool, I can easily see where shortages may crop up. In this example, the Polikarpov I-16 Type 18 has enough additional planes to support another 5 regiments roughly. But given losses to come, I really only have 100 left to spare. Only the SU-2 has a clear shortage here, so I will try to get the AI to swap them for free to IL-2.



The second sheet provides build and aircraft performance data. Knowing aircraft range is particularly important in planning future air activities.



The letter 'A' in the building column indicates the aircraft is actively produced.

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Post #: 51
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/22/2018 7:50:55 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
Week 5-- 17-23 July 1941
There are 10 arms remaining which will be the worst case loss should he cut the rail line at Mga next week. He has well fueled troops in the area, so it is quite within the realm of possibility.


I think someone found out Leningrad could still be evacuated through Osinovets even though there was no overland rail route - but it only needs rail cap not any sea transport cap of any kind.

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Post #: 52
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/23/2018 6:08:15 PM   
TheFox

 

Posts: 31
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From: Berkshire, UK
Status: offline 		Any chance of a copy of those air charts or a pointer to a forum link for them please?

Fox

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 53
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/24/2018 2:55:44 AM   
M60A3TTS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
Week 5-- 17-23 July 1941
There are 10 arms remaining which will be the worst case loss should he cut the rail line at Mga next week. He has well fueled troops in the area, so it is quite within the realm of possibility.


I think someone found out Leningrad could still be evacuated through Osinovets even though there was no overland rail route - but it only needs rail cap not any sea transport cap of any kind.



No, that is not true. Once an Axis unit is adjacent to the rail line, even if a Soviet unit occupies it, the hex is considered ZOC'd by the Axis and no rail movement including factory evacuations are permitted.

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 54
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/24/2018 4:50:48 AM   
M60A3TTS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheFox

Any chance of a copy of those air charts or a pointer to a forum link for them please?

Fox


PM sent with file

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Post #: 55
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/24/2018 4:21:18 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
Week 5-- 17-23 July 1941
There are 10 arms remaining which will be the worst case loss should he cut the rail line at Mga next week. He has well fueled troops in the area, so it is quite within the realm of possibility.

I think someone found out Leningrad could still be evacuated through Osinovets even though there was no overland rail route - but it only needs rail cap not any sea transport cap of any kind.

No, that is not true. Once an Axis unit is adjacent to the rail line, even if a Soviet unit occupies it, the hex is considered ZOC'd by the Axis and no rail movement including factory evacuations are permitted.


Does that mean you can evacuate by sea normally but not when the city is ZOC locked. Although in other cases if the city is ZOCed you would just pay double to evacuate by overland rail. There is a rail line from Leningrad that goes 81,16 to 81,15 to 82,15 and then by sea evac. Getting to Mga would not ZOC any part of that line?

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 2/24/2018 4:22:02 PM >

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Post #: 56
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/24/2018 5:31:31 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
Week 5-- 17-23 July 1941
There are 10 arms remaining which will be the worst case loss should he cut the rail line at Mga next week. He has well fueled troops in the area, so it is quite within the realm of possibility.

I think someone found out Leningrad could still be evacuated through Osinovets even though there was no overland rail route - but it only needs rail cap not any sea transport cap of any kind.

No, that is not true. Once an Axis unit is adjacent to the rail line, even if a Soviet unit occupies it, the hex is considered ZOC'd by the Axis and no rail movement including factory evacuations are permitted.


Does that mean you can evacuate by sea normally but not when the city is ZOC locked. Although in other cases if the city is ZOCed you would just pay double to evacuate by overland rail. There is a rail line from Leningrad that goes 81,16 to 81,15 to 82,15 and then by sea evac. Getting to Mga would not ZOC any part of that line?



Found the link here

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4266269&mpage=4&key=Stelteck%2CLeningrad%2Codessa

Got it - I think the point is the rail line still has to be 0MP - so rail to port does not work. Only evac from a hex already on a port. So it would work in Odessa, say, but not Leningrad even if there is no ZOC on city or rail.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 2/24/2018 5:40:31 PM >

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 57
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/24/2018 5:36:35 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
Week 5-- 17-23 July 1941
There are 10 arms remaining which will be the worst case loss should he cut the rail line at Mga next week. He has well fueled troops in the area, so it is quite within the realm of possibility.


I think someone found out Leningrad could still be evacuated through Osinovets even though there was no overland rail route - but it only needs rail cap not any sea transport cap of any kind.



No, that is not true. Once an Axis unit is adjacent to the rail line, even if a Soviet unit occupies it, the hex is considered ZOC'd by the Axis and no rail movement including factory evacuations are permitted.


1.08.08 states that you can evacuate through a ZOC but costs are doubled.

_____________________________

"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 58
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/24/2018 9:15:16 PM   
M60A3TTS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crackaces


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
Week 5-- 17-23 July 1941
There are 10 arms remaining which will be the worst case loss should he cut the rail line at Mga next week. He has well fueled troops in the area, so it is quite within the realm of possibility.


I think someone found out Leningrad could still be evacuated through Osinovets even though there was no overland rail route - but it only needs rail cap not any sea transport cap of any kind.



No, that is not true. Once an Axis unit is adjacent to the rail line, even if a Soviet unit occupies it, the hex is considered ZOC'd by the Axis and no rail movement including factory evacuations are permitted.


1.08.08 states that you can evacuate through a ZOC but costs are doubled.


You can evacuate from a city where the enemy is adjacent IF you have a rail line back to the east that is not ZOC locked.

And the proof...


(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 59
RE: RODINA ---M60A3TTS (Soviet) vs HLYA (Axis) No HLYA ... - 2/24/2018 11:04:32 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline 		I don't understand the concept of "double the costs" I assume rail cap? If so, is this cumulative or a 1 time no matter how many zoc's crossed penalty.

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(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 60
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