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Sudden high air loss reported - 7/5/2018 1:06:46 PM   
jwolf

 

Posts: 2493
Joined: 12/3/2013
Status: offline 		I'm playing a campaign against the Japanese AI, currently in September 1944. After the latest turn, the air losses all looked reasonable based on what happened that turn, except for one thing: a staggering number of Zeroes, variously reported as 1300 or 1700, listed as operations losses. Is this authentic? And if so, what could account for it?
Post #: 1
RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/5/2018 2:57:01 PM   
BBfanboy


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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

I'm playing a campaign against the Japanese AI, currently in September 1944. After the latest turn, the air losses all looked reasonable based on what happened that turn, except for one thing: a staggering number of Zeroes, variously reported as 1300 or 1700, listed as operations losses. Is this authentic? And if so, what could account for it?

Those are huge numbers, but the AI might do things that a human player would not, like put virtually all of its Zeros on ships to move them somewhere, or fly them all into a base or two that you are about to take. Did you massacre any convoys or take any bases lately?

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RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/5/2018 3:11:59 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
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Status: offline 		AI always flies CAP at full extended range. Hence why

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 3
RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/5/2018 3:14:17 PM   
jwolf

 

Posts: 2493
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Status: offline 		Negative to both. The only base that changed hands that turn was a dot base that flipped. Also when planes are lost at a base that falls, that is normally posted in the combat report for the attack that takes the base. Not sure about how planes in transit lost if a convoy is wiped out would be reported, but no such thing happened on that turn. The only Japanese ship lost was a tanker which sank during a surface battle.

Edit: this was in response to BBfanboy above.

< Message edited by jwolf -- 7/5/2018 3:15:10 PM >

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RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/5/2018 3:17:15 PM   
jwolf

 

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Status: offline 		GetAssista: I could believe some losses because of that, but to this degree? Over a thousand planes in one day?

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RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/5/2018 3:22:05 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

GetAssista: I could believe some losses because of that, but to this degree? Over a thousand planes in one day?

I have seen the AI send Zeros on an escort mission with bombers that were going far beyond the 14 hex range of a Zero with drop tanks. Those Zeros were ops losses but over 1000 in one turn seems unreal. Maybe there is a bug in the turn. Could that be a synch bug result? You won't know unless you can compare the Japanese and Allied combat reports from archives.

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RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/5/2018 3:28:44 PM   
jwolf

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Could that be a synch bug result?


I don't know about that -- I didn't know you could even have a sync bug in an AI game. But even after a sync bug turn, aren't the losses reported in the I screen correct, up to FOW?

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Post #: 7
RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/5/2018 3:30:56 PM   
jwolf

 

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Status: offline 		FWIW, the only Zeroes that were even involved in any reported action that day were a few Zeroes damaged or destroyed during a naval bombardment of Takao.

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Post #: 8
RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/5/2018 3:39:29 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

FWIW, the only Zeroes that were even involved in any reported action that day were a few Zeroes damaged or destroyed during a naval bombardment of Takao.

Bombardment losses are always ground losses.

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RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/5/2018 3:43:25 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf
GetAssista: I could believe some losses because of that, but to this degree? Over a thousand planes in one day?

Where is your screenshot? Until that I'm inclined to think you mixed day and campaign losses

Or maybe there was a massed disbanding of airgroups with subsequent lossses of airframes. My experience though is that AI does not disband/withdraw units and does not suffer pp penalties

< Message edited by GetAssista -- 7/5/2018 3:46:33 PM >

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Post #: 10
RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/5/2018 4:33:51 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
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Status: offline 		There is a mass Japanese naval air disbandment sometime in '44. Could that have something to do with it?

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Post #: 11
RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/5/2018 4:35:29 PM   
jwolf

 

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Status: offline 		I'll post a screenshot from home once I get there. It will be several hours from now, though.

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Post #: 12
RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/5/2018 4:59:12 PM   
witpqs


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Status: offline 		The answer is obvious: they were produced with the wrong paint scheme and had to be scrapped.

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Post #: 13
RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/5/2018 5:11:18 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The answer is obvious: they were produced with the wrong paint scheme and had to be scrapped.

Either that or M&M industries "appropriated" them to sell to a South American country and just "made a mistake" on the paperwork describing how the aircraft disappeared - "long range training flight over water, failed to return."

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Post #: 14
RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/5/2018 5:19:50 PM   
MakeeLearn


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Status: offline 		Try ROGAINE®.

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Post #: 15
RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/5/2018 5:22:08 PM   
MakeeLearn


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Stock Scenario?

Probably a mathematical glitch.

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Post #: 16
RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/5/2018 5:26:04 PM   
jwolf

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn


Stock Scenario?

Probably a mathematical glitch.


Correct, it is stock. AI is at hard difficulty FWIW.

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Post #: 17
RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/5/2018 5:30:41 PM   
MakeeLearn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf


quote:

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn


Stock Scenario?

Probably a mathematical glitch.


Correct, it is stock. AI is at hard difficulty FWIW.



If those losses are real, it should noticeable in the following turns unless it restocked.

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Post #: 18
RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/5/2018 8:25:15 PM   
inqistor


Posts: 1813
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Status: offline 		What types of ZEROs?

Maybe this could be automatic scrapping, of no longer used old airframes?


Have you closed any airfields? Probably by Naval Bombard, as they would intercept your bombers, and you will see them. It may be, that they were unable to land on closed airfield?

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Post #: 19
RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/5/2018 9:00:39 PM   
rockmedic109

 

Posts: 2390
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Status: offline 		Kamikazes sent beyond the range they could return from?

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Post #: 20
RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/5/2018 10:55:16 PM   
jwolf

 

Posts: 2493
Joined: 12/3/2013
Status: offline 		Here is a screenshot of the intel screen showing the high number of Japanese op losses for the turn.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 21
RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/5/2018 10:57:00 PM   
jwolf

 

Posts: 2493
Joined: 12/3/2013
Status: offline 		Continuing, here is the detail on the "aircraft losses" report showing a somewhat larger, presumably inflated number of A6M5b lost to ops for the turn.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 22
RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/5/2018 11:02:33 PM   
jwolf

 

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Joined: 12/3/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor

What types of ZEROs?

Maybe this could be automatic scrapping, of no longer used old airframes?


Have you closed any airfields? Probably by Naval Bombard, as they would intercept your bombers, and you will see them. It may be, that they were unable to land on closed airfield?


They were A6M5b, by this time a bit old but not way out of date, I think. It is true that I bombarded Takao that night, with a strong RN surface fleet. Is it really possible that the AI tried to fly 1000 Zeroes during the day to an airfield they knew was badly damaged?

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Post #: 23
RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/6/2018 12:30:25 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
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From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		My guess is that it was unit fragments with damaged planes disbanded, perhaps at a high number of scattered bases - wouldn't the A6M5c be available about this time?

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Post #: 24
RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/6/2018 1:08:16 PM   
GetAssista

 

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Status: offline 		There are 2 airgroups that withdraw at Sep 20, 44 in stock 1 scenario, but they are both Mavis/Emily patrols. The culling of IJNAF happens earlier, in April-July.

If you have earlier saves available you can load them as Japan (with AI set to Allies) and look through the list of airgroups. Maybe one of them ended up with a bloated reserves airframes by some glitch and had to ditch them all when disbanding a fragment.

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Post #: 25
RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/6/2018 1:26:57 PM   
wegman58

 

Posts: 460
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

Continuing, here is the detail on the "aircraft losses" report showing a somewhat larger, presumably inflated number of A6M5b lost to ops for the turn.




Something very odd. You have 1744 OPS today, but 1245 Ops for the campaign.

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Post #: 26
RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/6/2018 1:38:16 PM   
jwolf

 

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quote:

Something very odd. You have 1744 OPS today, but 1245 Ops for the campaign.


I've always figured the daily numbers are inflated due to FOW or just plain BS. The cumulative data are -- I think -- more accurate although possibly still exaggerated. Maybe someone with more experience can correct me.

(in reply to wegman58)
Post #: 27
RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/6/2018 3:35:58 PM   
Lokasenna


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

There are 2 airgroups that withdraw at Sep 20, 44 in stock 1 scenario, but they are both Mavis/Emily patrols. The culling of IJNAF happens earlier, in April-July.

If you have earlier saves available you can load them as Japan (with AI set to Allies) and look through the list of airgroups. Maybe one of them ended up with a bloated reserves airframes by some glitch and had to ditch them all when disbanding a fragment.


Unit fragments disbanded so that the AI could upgrade the units to a new plane.

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Post #: 28
RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/8/2018 7:14:10 AM   
Yaab


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1744 Zero ops losses for today
1245 Zero ops losses in the campaign
1422 Japanese total losses for today

WTF, code overflow?

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Post #: 29
RE: Sudden high air loss reported - 7/8/2018 11:12:54 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab


1744 Zero ops losses for today
1245 Zero ops losses in the campaign
1422 Japanese total losses for today

WTF, code overflow?

Divide by Zero error!

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 30
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