Zen Mechanic
Posts: 7
Joined: 6/9/2003
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quote:
ZEN,
You never answered me at least as I read your previous postings.
Can units move into cities during the movement phase?
SNAKE
I don't think it's necessary to answer this question for the purposes of how we play, and in fact, I think it's counter-productive. But, if you want, here's an interpretation which is consistent and states that the only way for a corps to enter a city is to be attacked and to retreat into the city. It's a bit long, and really, I think this will likely be my last word on the subject.
Don't forget, I'm not necessarily advocating this, I'm just going to make the strongest case for it that I can.
quote:
7.3.1 GENERAL LAND MOVEMENT RULES: Each land counter has a "movement allowance" consisting of a number of "movement points" that can be expended to enter new areas on the map.
First - it doesn't say "or cities" does it. It says "areas". So the first thing you read by the exclusio alterius rule of interpretation is that if they meant for you to enter cities, they would have said so. But let's read on.
quote:
7.3.1.1 MOVEMENT ALLOWANCES: With corps bearing a cavalry symbol (including Austrian light infantry), Austrian and Prussian freikorps and Russian cossacks the movement allowance is "5". For French corps (including French artillery) and French controlled minor free state corps having an infantry symbol and having their "3" movement allowance number in parenthesis the allowance is "4". All other corps have an allowance of "3". Spanish guerrillas have a movement allowance of one area (regardless of terrain).
7.3.1.2 FORCE MARCHING: Corps may increase their movement allowance by one movement point by "force marching". Cossacks, freikorps, guerillas, cavalry corps and disembarking corps may not be force marched.
7.3.1.3 LAND MOVEMENT COSTS: Each map area generally expends one movement point from a counter's movement allowance to enter, although this varies in some areas, as follows:
7.3.1.3.1 Marsh or Mountain: Areas containing a marsh or a mountain cost 2 movement points to enter.
7.3.1.3.2 Crossing Rivers: It costs an extra movement point to enter an area across a river, if that area contains an unbesieged enemy corps. There is no extra cost to move across a river if there is no unbesieged enemy corps counter(s) in the area.
7.3.1.3.3 Sea Crossing Arrow Movement: It always costs an extra movement point to use a crossing arrow. Corps, freikorps and/or cossacks may not use a crossing arrow if an enemy fleet occupies the surrounding sea area.
7.3.1.3.4 Cumulative Costs: These costs are all cumulative. For example, movement across a river into a mountain area containing an enemy corps costs one movement point to cross the river, plus two more movement points since it is a mountain area, for a total of three movement points of the counter's movement allowance expended.
All of these rules refer to "areas" also - not cities. Note that the crossing-rivers rule says that if there is an "unbeseiged corps counter in the area" it costs extra to move in. So this would seem to suggest that the only way a corps could be in a city would be for it to be besieged - because they have not stated what happens to the extra movement cost if there is an unbesieged corps in the city.
Also, since they used the term "unbesieged corps in the area, and since if you're only beseiged when in a city, any corps which is unbesieged must be in the area, not the city.
quote:
7.3.3 MOVING INTO CITIES-DETACHING/ABSORBING FACTORS-GARRISONS: During a major power's Land Movement Step, any non-artillery, non-feudal or non-insurrection corps may detach factors as garrisons at, or absorb army factors from, depots and/or unbesieged friendly or vacant cities by reducing or increasing its strength, if the capacity is there. There is no movement point cost for doing this.
Note that this rule explicitly is referring to "moving into cities". Note that it DOES NOT talk about corps moving into the cities, but only talks about DROPPING FACTORS into cities.
If it was possible to move into a city, they would have said so right here - in the MOVING INTO CITIES rule!
But they didn't. So you mustn't be able to move into cities with a corps.
quote:
7.3.4 MOVEMENT FROM CITIES: If a phasing major power has corps, cossacks, freikorps and/or guerillas inside a city which is not being besieged, they may be moved directly out of that city into the area surrounding the city and/or continue normal movement into adjacent areas (if permissible). Moving from a city into its area (or vice-versa) expends no movement points.
So now they talk about "movement from cities" - not movement TO cities, which is prohibited. How can this be? There must be some way to get into cities which is not covered by movement!, which we shall see occurs later, in the combat step.
If you read "not being besieged" as meaning "no longer being besieged" then this also makes more sense.
Note: here's where you rules-lawyers say "vice-versa" means to and from cities. Had they wanted to be clear, they could have put that in the EXPRESS "MOVING INTO CITIES" section, and not as an afterthought in the MOVING FROM CITIES section.
now add that to this rule:
quote:
7.5.1.1 DEFENDER RETIREMENT INTO CITY: Any forces or portion o 1f forces upon whom an attack is declared may immediately retire into any friendly controlled or vacant, and unbesieged city in that area but not so as to exceed that city's garrison capacity
So here's where you can move a corps into a city! Aha! All is clear now - you can only move into a city if you get attacked and run like a scared chicken into the city.
but then note:
quote:
7.3.7.1 ENEMY CORPS OR CITY GARRISON IN AREA: If during movement a corps moves into an area containing enemy corps not in a city, the corps must cease movement and declare an attack. If enemy corps and/or garrison factors are in a city the phasing corps may continue movement or stop movement and besiege (see 7.5.4) or not, as the owning player desires.
Well, this is also "clear" - the only way for a corps to move into a city is to have been besieged, as we've previously read, so this must be for when you are in the middle of a seige (some other corps of yours is beseiging an enemy corps or garrison in a city) you don't have to stop in the area.
SO....
So all the rules are written such that the only time a corps may enter a city is when it has been attacked, or has been beseiged. Immediately after a siege is lifted *poof*, the corps is in the area, not the city.
So Snake, after all this yibber-yabber, I think I can make a pretty convincing case that a corps is NOT ALLOWED to move into a city unless as a result of being attacked.
Does this make sense? Reality-wise, probably not, thus Double-duty. Game-wise? Yes - you don't have to mark where your counters ARE.
I reinforce this interpretation with the COMPLETE lack of information on HOW to indicate one way or another where your corps are UNLESS there is another enemy corps in the area.
That's how I interpreted the rules for many years, but I also admit that it may be possible to interpret them differently, but it's a bit of a stretch. Why not put a CLEAR rule in the MOVING INTO CITIES section? Why put it in an afterthought in a MOVING OUT OF CITIES section?
Of course, these rules are not legislation, and SHOULD NOT be read in that fashion - the words are sometimes used carelessly, and occasionally contradict one another. When reading them, use common sense, if possible, to provide a "good" answer rather than a "textually correct" answer.
ZM
p.s. thanks Baboune for the link to the rules, although I'm missing s. 16 to be able to refute the "minors revert to neutrality" argument that Snake says happens if the capital is unoccupied.
this just in:
quote:
[ 7.7 ] THE CONQUEST STEP: This step is performed after all major power sequences are completed. It can be performed any convenient order. Control flags are changed to show the conquest of minor countries and their change of control. The control flags are changed only if the capital of the minor country was occupied during the previous Turn and the conqueror has maintained uninterrupted and unbesieged occupation for the entire current Turn. A newly conquered minor country is always marked with a conquered control flag.
So you have to re-besiege to change control - they do not revert to neutrality except when:
quote:
4.6.6 LAPSE OF WAR WITH MINOR COUNTRIES: If, during any Peace Step prior to the conquest of a minor country, any invading major power has no corps within that minor country, then that major power is considered to be no longer at war with the minor country and must be at war with the major power controlling it before he can attack it again. Any garrisons, cossacks and/or freikorps are repatriated as per 4.4.6.2. NOTE: For multi-districtminor countries (see 10.4), this applies if a secondary district has been conquered and there are no invading major power corps within the rest of that minor country.
That's the only time a minor becomes neutral except for the instability phase stuff.
ZM
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