The Curious Case of the 711th Gun Battalion

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The Curious Case of the 711th Gun Battalion - 10/10/2018 8:07:01 PM

Kielec

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Attacking some assorted Axis stragglers inside a blizzard Kessel late December 1941.
After the first attack (red) the strangely cloned 711th Gun Battalion surrenders.

During the second attack (blue) it still fights on...
Or is it just the other clone?

Anyway, when did General Heinrici visit Kamino?!

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RE: The Curious Case of the 711th Gun Battalion - 10/10/2018 9:14:13 PM

Sammy5IsAlive

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I guess it is some quirk of the programming where 1) units that reach 0% TOE due to losses during combat surrender before the final calculation and 2)'surrendered' support units are not removed until the next logistics phase.

So the battalion starts the battle with 0.03 CV (in terms of what is displayed elsewhere). At some point in the combat phase it loses all it's remaining elements, becomes a surrendered unit and is rerecorded as having 0CV. Then in the subsequent battle, despite having 'surrendered' it is still recorded as being attached and so turns up in the combat report with 0CV.

(in reply to Kielec)

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RE: The Curious Case of the 711th Gun Battalion - 10/10/2018 9:36:10 PM

chaos45

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isn't the first time surrendered units have duplicated. I know they had worked on fixing it a long time ago.

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RE: The Curious Case of the 711th Gun Battalion - 10/11/2018 12:25:34 AM

Saulust

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I have seen this quite a few times now, IIRC I described it in a post somewhere or I meant to.

Looking at your screenie, that double print of 711th Gun Btln should actually be the name of the Italian unit 1=4 top of the stack that surrendered. Also AIUI the 1=4 represents the stack strength combined, so that is all probably just coming from the 94th ID of Heinrici's XLIII Korps while the Italian Division is at 0=0 itself.

If you check after the first battle or any time later the Show Loss Screen tab and click the dot for Destroyed Units you will find the name of that actual Italian Division that surrendered, not the 711 Gunners.

< Message edited by Saulust -- 10/11/2018 12:31:25 AM >

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RE: The Curious Case of the 711th Gun Battalion - 10/12/2018 11:47:17 PM

Kielec

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I don't think the "units destroyed" tab keeps track of support units...

All the same, it's funny that the "end of battle screen" would have them mentioned.

(in reply to Saulust)

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RE: The Curious Case of the 711th Gun Battalion - 10/13/2018 12:15:41 AM

xhoel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kielec

I don't think the "units destroyed" tab keeps track of support units...

All the same, it's funny that the "end of battle screen" would have them mentioned.

I am pretty sure it does. I have seen Soviet Artillery Regiments (off map ones) as well as other support units show up as destroyed units.

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RE: The Curious Case of the 711th Gun Battalion - 10/13/2018 1:13:37 AM

56ajax

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and if they are destroyed they don't automatically come back but if they surrender they do?? I think...

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RE: The Curious Case of the 711th Gun Battalion - 10/13/2018 7:13:34 PM

Saulust

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I meant to say that the double print of 711 Gun Btln will not be written twice in the destroyed units list only the once since I don't think in this case that it is an 'off map" HQ supplied SU but probably stuck with the 94th Div, no wait it's an artilleyt unit so it must have come from Heinrici XLIII Korps HQ, probably inside the pocket... unless that is a triple stack and that HQ is present! Blah, oh I just wouldn't consider 711 schere to be 'off map' supplied SU, but I don't think it could be actually in the 94th Infantry Division. I think however that what might be considered off map SUs can be trapped in pockets is both their HQ & its assigned Divisions are also there, even if the HQ relocates.

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RE: The Curious Case of the 711th Gun Battalion - 10/13/2018 10:39:46 PM

Kielec

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

I am pretty sure it does. I have seen Soviet Artillery Regiments (off map ones) as well as other support units show up as destroyed units.

I stand corrected, Sir!
Indeed, the Destroyed Units report shows the SUs. I must have been too focused of them Divisions...

Thanks!

(in reply to xhoel)

Post #: 9

RE: The Curious Case of the 711th Gun Battalion - 10/19/2018 1:46:03 AM

Saulust

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kielec
I don't think the "units destroyed" tab keeps track of support units...

All the same, it's funny that the "end of battle screen" would have them mentioned.

I am pretty sure it does. I have seen Soviet Artillery Regiments (off map ones) as well as other support units show up as destroyed units.

Firstly, yes to Kielec both the end of battle screen mentions the support units as destroyed, usually by surrender frequently and possibly may be shattered as well, though I don't remember seeing that ATM; yes the destroyed units tab keeps track of removed Support Units through the result of combat or disbanding when AA in cities is over run or if assigned to a ground formation that gets bumped off when in isolated status such as a routed division already cut off in a pocket.

Secondly yes I concur with xhoel (as well as with Kielec too in post #9 above) that SUs such as Artillery Rgmt types etc can show up as destroyed units both in battles and in the destoyed units tap list. I recently saw a Soviet Division of mine that was in isolated status on the front line be destroyed while it actually 'retreated' from a battle and one out of the 3 Artillery Rgmt SUs that its nearby in range Corps HQ managed to actually send into the single battle was also destroyed and showed up in the destroyed units lists.

As I said I don't consider them 'off the map' since I know the SUs are in the HQs, like as the ones that are attached to the Divisions, however I do consider them as 'kind of 'off' fly ins with them somehow showing up in a pocketed divisional battle when its Corps or Army HQ is not actually in the pocket and is who knows where...

IME sometimes though HQs magically appear in fully surrounded single division or stacks of twos hexes and then can provide SUs in battles (which annoyingly don't get destroyed even as the HQ must be bumped out of the losing pocket battle hex) which to me seems like they have come in and out of pure thing air!

Thinking about my earlier example of a case of one out of three Artillery Rgmts also being destroyed along with the isolated division they were 'supporting' in a single battle, may be there is a chance of these Corps/Army provided SUs being destroyed in these instances, while if the SU is assigned as a direct attachment to a surrendering division they always are destroyed too.