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RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 11:53:10 AM   
savelius2

 

Posts: 57
Joined: 3/10/2016
Status: offline 		I’m a regular reader but very infrequent poster, so my apologies for piling on. That said,you’re entering the endgame for Japan, when they’re clawing for everything they can get and their ability to do so is waning every turn. Some players like Lowpe seem to thrive in such an environment (masochist!), others less so. But when a centerpiece of your successful invasions is repeatedly forcing your opponents troops into behavior out of his control (which you rightly call “self-destructive bombardments”) is it anything other than disingenuous to question why he might be struggling to stay engaged? So far your invasion of Sakhalin resulted in him being unable to sweep due to the combat model breaking down, allowing you to base planes in range of the home islands without fear of reprisals, and your invasions are making his fortress levels irrelevant because of the autobombardments. I’m enjoying your thread a great deal, but it shouldn’t be surprising that some of the things happening in game might be a source of friction.

Edit: with that said, we’re the peanut gallery. If you’re concerned about your opponent you should probably just check in. It’s a game and a huge time commitment, seeing how he feels about the game might not be unwarranted. He might be fine with all of this, but if he isn’t it might be worth considering your tactics.

< Message edited by savelius2 -- 11/1/2018 11:59:19 AM >

(in reply to adarbrauner)
Post #: 3061
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 11:55:43 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Why? I wouldn't stop this any more than I would ask Erik to not use his air force, which is powerful in ways that I cannot match, since I lack control over production. These are just features of the game, well known, and we're both employing them, the best we can. And Erik could counter the move using his navy, but that's been pretty much used up already, so he's in a tight spot, which isn't unusual given it's 1945.

The Japanese lead is 11,000+. I think it's "shrunk" about 1,000 or 2,000 points over the past three months, during which the Allies have been (according to my reckoning) remarkably successful in taking the Kuriles and Wakkanai and (almost) Kushiro. Erik is managing the points aspect very carefully and effectively. If I ceded on of the few Allied strategies that's working (by my reckoning), the game would last until about 1957.

What you're asking is akin to a baseball manager saying, "Mr. Kershaw, please don't throw your fastball any more" after loading up his team with Rafael Palmiro, Sammy Sosa, Barry Bonds, and Mark Maguire.

(in reply to adarbrauner)
Post #: 3062
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 12:01:12 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: savelius2
I’m a regular reader but very infrequent poster, so my apologies for piling on. That said,you’re entering the endgame for Japan, when they’re clawing for everything they can get and their ability to do so is waning every turn. Some players like Lowpe seem to thrive in such an environment (masochist!), others less so. But when a centerpiece of your successful invasions is repeatedly forcing your opponents troops into behavior out of his control (which you rightly call “self-destructive bombardments”) is it anything other than disingenuous to question why he might be struggling to stay engaged? So far your invasion of Sakhalin resulted in him being unable to sweep due to the combat model breaking down, allowing you to base planes in range of the home islands without fear of reprisals, and your invasions are making his fortress levels irrelevant because of the autobombardments. I’m enjoying your thread a great deal, but it shouldn’t be surprising that some of the things happening in game might be a source of friction.


This is the first I've heard of this complaint, after more than a decade playing AE and WitP. I don't understand it. There's no friction between Erik and I, so far as I know. If this is an invalid tactic, I'd simply have to resign the game out of shame that I apparently don't know and recognize boundaries.

As for Sikhalin Island, whatever was messing with the early air battles there seems to have been eliminated long ago. Erik has used massive sweeps, including once there, as have I, and the model seems to be working fine. And my air force within range of his Home Islands has struggled mightily due to his uber fighters?

Have those protesting here asked Erik to stop using research and production to enhance his air force? I haven't. I wouldn't think of it.



(in reply to savelius2)
Post #: 3063
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 12:03:27 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: savelius2

I’m a regular reader but very infrequent poster, so my apologies for piling on. That said,you’re entering the endgame for Japan, when they’re clawing for everything they can get and their ability to do so is waning every turn. Some players like Lowpe seem to thrive in such an environment (masochist!), others less so. But when a centerpiece of your successful invasions is repeatedly forcing your opponents troops into behavior out of his control (which you rightly call “self-destructive bombardments”) is it anything other than disingenuous to question why he might be struggling to stay engaged? So far your invasion of Sakhalin resulted in him being unable to sweep due to the combat model breaking down, allowing you to base planes in range of the home islands without fear of reprisals, and your invasions are making his fortress levels irrelevant because of the autobombardments. I’m enjoying your thread a great deal, but it shouldn’t be surprising that some of the things happening in game might be a source of friction.

Edit: with that said, we’re the peanut gallery. If you’re concerned about your opponent you should probably just check in. It’s a game and a huge time commitment, seeing how he feels about the game might not be unwarranted. He might be fine with all of this, but if he isn’t it might be worth considering your tactics.



How is this any different from a Japanese player exploiting the game mechanism that allows them to destroy the supply of Chinese ground troops by bombing unused airfields?

I don't see Japanese players voluntarily avoiding this obvious game mechanics exploit.

The game mechaincs are what they are and players on both sides use them to their every advantage.


_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to savelius2)
Post #: 3064
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 1:39:00 PM   
BillBrown


Posts: 2335
Joined: 6/15/2002
Status: offline 		Well said Hans. I do not think of them as exploits, just parts of the game.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 3065
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 1:58:58 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
What you're asking is akin to a baseball manager saying, "Mr. Kershaw, please don't throw your fastball any more" after loading up his team with Rafael Palmiro, Sammy Sosa, Barry Bonds, and Mark Maguire.


Holy anabolic steroids, batman*! An interesting selection of sluggers from the era of asterisks.

_____________________________


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3066
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 2:00:46 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Have those protesting here asked Erik to stop using research and production to enhance his air force? I haven't. I wouldn't think of it.


Sure you would. You just did. And then you printed it out. You haven't actually done it.

_____________________________


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3067
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 2:04:20 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: savelius2

I’m a regular reader but very infrequent poster, so my apologies for piling on. That said,you’re entering the endgame for Japan, when they’re clawing for everything they can get and their ability to do so is waning every turn. Some players like Lowpe seem to thrive in such an environment (masochist!), others less so. But when a centerpiece of your successful invasions is repeatedly forcing your opponents troops into behavior out of his control (which you rightly call “self-destructive bombardments”) is it anything other than disingenuous to question why he might be struggling to stay engaged? So far your invasion of Sakhalin resulted in him being unable to sweep due to the combat model breaking down, allowing you to base planes in range of the home islands without fear of reprisals, and your invasions are making his fortress levels irrelevant because of the autobombardments. I’m enjoying your thread a great deal, but it shouldn’t be surprising that some of the things happening in game might be a source of friction.

Edit: with that said, we’re the peanut gallery. If you’re concerned about your opponent you should probably just check in. It’s a game and a huge time commitment, seeing how he feels about the game might not be unwarranted. He might be fine with all of this, but if he isn’t it might be worth considering your tactics.


savelius2 and adarbruner:

Dan has said several times in this AAR that he's uninterested in those of the peanut gallery 'lobbing grenades'. If you've read or followed this AAR, you've seen that several times regarding several subjects. He doesn't want this degree of discourse / criticism here.

Your opinions may or may not have valid perspective elsewhere in the forum or other AARs. But please respect his wishes to not deposit those criticisms here, as they are unlikely to be welcomed by other readers of the AAR or by the author.

_____________________________


(in reply to savelius2)
Post #: 3068
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 2:13:42 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Chickenboy is exaggerating highly here. I asked him to stop lobbing hand grenades in here, because he was using terms like "egregious abuse," suggesting that I was being unfair or abusing the system. In my game with John III, he accused me of cheating and didn't apologize when he learned that I wasn't. He goes to far in his ardor. I don't enjoy people doing stuff like that, turning a game into an unpleasant experience.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 3069
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 2:14:56 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I haven't asked Erik to stop using his air force nor have I considered doing so. It's just part of the game. I mentioned it here (privately) to make a point.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3070
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 2:39:24 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline 		I read both AAR's, so I can't/won't say much. Just this.

Play on.

_____________________________

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3071
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 2:43:47 PM   
adarbrauner

 

Posts: 1496
Joined: 11/3/2016
From: Zichron Yaaqov, Israel; Before, Treviso, Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter





How is this any different from a Japanese player exploiting the game mechanism that allows them to destroy the supply of Chinese ground troops by bombing unused airfields?

I don't see Japanese players voluntarily avoiding this obvious game mechanics exploit.






I wouldn't. but maybe in second thought: yes, I would actually, that would well simulate "interdiction" missions, those aimed at hitting the supply throughput of the enemy or his logistical depots; Allies can do that either;

that's one of the reason I air bombard airfields hoping to hit the supply depots; there's no dedicated air mission I the game aiming at depots, transports and similia; in WITE it was already added;

Is this a distorsion of the game and its scope? I don't think; but to provoke an auto self destructive bombardment well this yes definitely (also if provoked or "abused" from Japanese side alike);

an exploitation of not well tweaked feature in WITP AE;


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

If this is an invalid tactic, I'd simply have to resign the game



no need to resign? just why to use that unpleasant trick?




Briefly, bombardment of airfield to hit the supply (and the possibility for Japan to adjust its airplanes production - they did not lead a war on two very though fronts while refurbishing all the other allies, as America was forced to; anything you add to the Pacific is subtracted from the European front, not that easy at all))would make sense;

But to land a dozen of human cannon fodders just to provoke artillery bombardment and than automatic more precise counter battery? what sense does it make? Neat distorsion;


< Message edited by adarbrauner -- 11/1/2018 3:09:41 PM >

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 3072
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 2:48:14 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Now that you have units at Bihoro (sp?) his units in the clear hex are trapped if you control all hexsides. Their only relief is from the the West or Northwest as long as you keep units at Bihoro. I think that their distance moved also gets reset to 0. Very sneaky.

As far as the fast TFs and the resulting auto bombardment, there was a discussion somewhere else (I don't remember exactly where ) but the way that Dan is using them is fine.

As far as hand grenades go, a Drill Sergeant said "If you pull the pin on the grenade and drop it in your own foxhole, it could ruin your whole day."

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3073
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 2:52:25 PM   
adarbrauner

 

Posts: 1496
Joined: 11/3/2016
From: Zichron Yaaqov, Israel; Before, Treviso, Italy
Status: offline 		I think the "counter battery " feature is a "leftover" from Uncommon Valor; one of the characteristics of the Guadalcanal campaign (and of others, as in Okinawa)is that Japanese artillery was deterred from bombarding by the counter battery of the more powerful and better supplied American artillery;

I think 2by3 wanted to stress this interesting and relevant historical feature in that game but than stuck in the bigger WITP even though not applicable there in that extent;

more discretion should be granted to the player in use of his artillery; or better mechanics and rules governing the artillery - counter artillery feature;

(in reply to adarbrauner)
Post #: 3074
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 2:55:10 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline 		Enough on the counter battery fire issue, please. Both sides are aware of what is going on.

_____________________________

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

(in reply to adarbrauner)
Post #: 3075
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 3:08:56 PM   
adarbrauner

 

Posts: 1496
Joined: 11/3/2016
From: Zichron Yaaqov, Israel; Before, Treviso, Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius
Both sides are aware of what is going on.


And I guess Eric/Obvert is much pleased by this game feature...

Maybe he could put his artillery in "reserve" mode to avoid counter battery? shall it work?


< Message edited by adarbrauner -- 11/1/2018 3:11:18 PM >

(in reply to Lecivius)
Post #: 3076
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 3:18:44 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:


ORIGINAL: Lecivius
Both sides are aware of what is going on.

And I guess Eric/Obvert is much pleased by this game feature...


No need for sarcasm, please be polite.

Their are "exploits" used by both sides. There are things that are not included in the game that were actually done by both sides during the war. We have to play and enjoy the game as it is.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to adarbrauner)
Post #: 3077
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 3:19:29 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: adarbrauner

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius
Both sides are aware of what is going on.


And I guess Eric/Obvert is much pleased by this game feature...

Maybe he could put his artillery in "reserve" mode to avoid counter battery? shall it work?



Simple enough. Ask him. And take a page from Aaron Rodgers.

R-E-L-A-X

_____________________________

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

(in reply to adarbrauner)
Post #: 3078
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 4:27:36 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		I read where someone did use a CD unit at a narrow straight effectively. I believe that the unit was in reserve mode but, more important, had a leader with low aggression. When enemy surface TFs had passed through the hex, the CD unit was put in combat mode and the the leader was replaced with one with a very high aggression. I believe that six CVEs were sunk by that CD unit.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Lecivius)
Post #: 3079
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 4:43:46 PM   
aleajactaest10044


Posts: 33
Joined: 5/3/2014
Status: offline 		This clearly explains why the Americans will let Japan have free reign in the Pacific...payment for the Revolutionary War (see c3:00). That Roosevelt guy was tricky, I always thought he was wheelchair bound during the war years...not so!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmk3qDLVMyE

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 3080
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 4:50:44 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		He could walk with braces and two canes or with help. It was very tiring for him but he tried to keep his wheelchair use to a minimum at public events.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to aleajactaest10044)
Post #: 3081
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 4:52:49 PM   
aleajactaest10044


Posts: 33
Joined: 5/3/2014
Status: offline 		Beware JFB...The NEW British Spitfires are coming soon ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HirwnpeugNM&start_radio=1&list=RDHirwnpeugNM

(in reply to aleajactaest10044)
Post #: 3082
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 4:55:02 PM   
aleajactaest10044


Posts: 33
Joined: 5/3/2014
Status: offline 		On those silly notes...chill...it's a game...both sides have non-historic features

(in reply to aleajactaest10044)
Post #: 3083
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 5:12:12 PM   
Bif1961


Posts: 2014
Joined: 6/26/2008
From: Phenix City, Alabama
Status: offline 		I have been playing VITPAE since it came out in 2009 and VITP before then and also Uncommon Valor before that. I see there are still some exploits I don't know about but when I learn of them I avoid using them. However, somethings are beyond the players control and just have to be accepted as part of the game and both sides realize this.

(in reply to aleajactaest10044)
Post #: 3084
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 5:20:27 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		My email to Erik:

Erik,

Three forumites have shown up in my thread, raising cane because of my tactic of landing troops to trigger auto-bombardments. One in particular has been nasty, but he has a long history of doing that.

As far as I know, you and I are fine with everything going on in the game. It’s a tough, brutal knife fight at close range. It’s 1945 and you still have a serious lead and a mighty air force that is making things awfully tough on me. I’m making some progress, but it’s pulling teeth progress.

I don’t think you have any issues with what’s going on, because you’d likely have said so if you did. Let me know if you do.

Dan

(in reply to Bif1961)
Post #: 3085
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 5:21:03 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Erik's reply:

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the note on this. I’m sorry you’re taking some flak for the tactic. I’ve probably voiced my frustration in the AAR, but my that is centred on the game forcing my hand rather than you choosing to do it. I do understand your position, and having found something that works in the late game, I don’t blame you for using it. It does set my troops back in a way I can’t control or prepare for so it does for me take some fun out of the game, but I’m sure you’ve found things I use that do similar things.

We all find our own methods. My research has been focused on the air war for a while because I realised early on in this one that I didn’t have a naval advantage from day 2 onward. I’ve probably neglected some other things.

In this case the auto-bombardments have become somewhat catastrophic! I know there is a distinct advantage in firepower and number of arty tubes, etc for the Allies in Kushiro. It’s more of a SL problem for me though, and the landing auto-bombardment rule wouldn’t be as much a problem if it’s a 70k limit. After the first DA the disablements, fatigue and disruption for the Allies would have have gone through the roof with this many troops in hex, and supply would have gone to zero fast. You would likely only have landed with a 25-30% overstack, and that would have been much more manageable in spite of the auto-bombardments.

So. Long story short. I don’t like not being able to control my troops, but you’re just playing the game as designed.

Been a gruelling few days here. Got into our new temp house okay but had some adjustments. Fireworks for Guy Fawkes night aren’t helping sleep as it ramps up tot he weekend.

Best,
Erik

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3086
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 5:27:12 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		In many cases, triggering an auto-bombardment wouldn't be advantageous, because the enemy artillery would do more damage to me than my guys would do to him. That's happened many time in this game, especially in the long, still-ongoing stalemate in Burma.

But Erik chose a course of action here that neutered his ability to fight back effectively. He elected to garrison Kushiro with just infantry - no armor or artillery. I landed with 3x troops and heavy concentrations of armor and artillery. Thus, the bombardments are deadly to his guys. And they should be. He chose to defend forward and to rely on rail transport to cover Kushiro. He made a miscalculation and is now paying for it. But he's doing so quietly, unlike certain folks given to histrionics and personal insults that go far beyond a game environment.

As for the massive armies employed, Erik has used the exact tactic in Burma, stalemating the Allies for 11 months.

These are just features of the game.

As for ardbrunner's comment that I'm landing a just tiny cadres of men, that isn't true. I'm landing 37th Div. troops. I've basically used all the combat squads from that division now, and they've suffered about 90% disruption. Each landing involves 2 to 5 APDs full of infantry.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3087
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 5:39:56 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Now that you have units at Bihoro (sp?) his units in the clear hex are trapped if you control all hexsides. Their only relief is from the the West or Northwest as long as you keep units at Bihoro. I think that their distance moved also gets reset to 0. Very sneaky.



The unit that just arrived at Bihoro was one that I lost track of and that I wish hadn't arrived there. It was part of a large stack moving from the SE and which I had expected to take at least a week to arrive. I forgot to allow for the fact that this is a tank destroyer unit that can make good time. So it's "naked" and won't be reinforced for many days, if at all (I'm still not sure I'm going to carry through with this move, and never have been). Erik will destroy this unit momentarily. And I don't think the arrival of the unit in any way affected the progress of his stack in the contested inland hex.



(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 3088
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 5:55:47 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline 		Y'all know that participation in auto-bombardments can be stopped by putting the units in Reserve, right?

Yes, this has its own slight downside... but if Erik wanted to avoid auto-bombardment, he could.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3089
RE: Notes from a Small Island - 11/1/2018 5:56:48 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

But Erik chose a course of action here that neutered his ability to fight back effectively. He elected to garrison Kushiro with just infantry - no armor or artillery. I landed with 3x troops and heavy concentrations of armor and artillery. Thus, the bombardments are deadly to his guys. And they should be.



Even if you were just landing supply and it was triggering it... the mismatch in forces here is a "Yep" from me.

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3090
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