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victory levels, how do they work - 11/24/2018 4:58:37 PM   
Adam Rinkleff

 

Posts: 375
Joined: 7/24/2007
Status: offline 		Can we get some clarification on victory levels, victory points, and the end of the game? I had a battle that ended prematurely, and would like to know what adjustments to make so this doesn't happen again. There should be an option to 'continue' battle.
Post #: 1
RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/24/2018 11:01:38 PM   
Adam Rinkleff

 

Posts: 375
Joined: 7/24/2007
Status: offline 		Does increasing victory points make the game shorter or longer? Is there any effect by a timer on length of the battle?

(in reply to Adam Rinkleff)
Post #: 2
RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/24/2018 11:55:12 PM   
PoorOldSpike


Posts: 228
Joined: 4/19/2008
From: Plymouth, England
Status: offline 		I'm still trying to figger it out myself mate, all I know is that at the objective screen the two numbers (circled yellow) are interlinked, for example in this top pic the Victory point setting is 5132 and the Estimated time limit is 56 minutes-





And in this pic below I've reduced the points to 900, and the Estimated time limit has automatically changed to 9 mins.

I still need to run tests and experiments to find out more-


(in reply to Adam Rinkleff)
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RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/25/2018 12:41:42 AM   
kevinkins


Posts: 2257
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		In my experience, the estimated time is always short. After wiping out the enemy, I still have to wait for the scoring bar to hit zero and disappear. Not sure why the end battle button is there since it always results in a draw. Might be nice if it calculated the real victory at the time it was pressed to save the player a little time.

Edit: the battle I finished just now was predicted to last 1 hour 40 mins. Combat ended after 2 hours 15 mins. I had to hit Start and Fast until 5 hour and 45 mins until the red bar went to zero for the USSR. I got a Total Victory. Maybe the problem was the AI placed a tank platoon in a spot with zero LOS and it could not move due to restricting terrain. So the software was waiting for the platoon to engage - which it couldn't. Perhaps a corner chase.

Kevin

< Message edited by kevinkin -- 11/25/2018 2:53:34 AM >

_____________________________

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― Alfred Thayer Mahan


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Post #: 4
RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/25/2018 3:53:14 AM   
Rosseau

 

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Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline 		I've just been experimenting, but that is one issue that's probably on the to-do list. Combat Mission you can end early and get the current stats.

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RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/25/2018 9:31:24 AM   
zacklaws

 

Posts: 415
Joined: 1/10/2007
Status: offline 		I did a lot of tests and found that it works out roughly that just over 5000 points equates to about an hour of play.

But, I to have had many endings to battles which have not seemed right. One of the most occurring was playing defensive scenario's and I would be down to about 3 units, the game would end, but in the AAR report when all the enemy units appeared on the map, what they had remaining they should have just steam rolled over me and won the game.

Another game a couple of days ago, my objectives had been over run by enemy armour with both sides occupying adjacent grid squares. The problem was, my side had run out of AT weapons but plenty of small arms ammunition and the enemy armour I presume had run out of small arms ammunition as neither side was engaging each other as the enemy armour just drove around. Eventually the scenario finished and in the AAR, a mass of enemy infantry was just sat there it appears a distance away doing nothing when in fact, they could have just advanced and took the objective.

On scenarios where I have been on the attack, I have gained all the objectives etc cleared the area of enemy, reorged, set up a defensive perimeter for a counter attack but nothing happens and the scenario continues. I then have to send out all my units on search and destroy missions just randomly moving about on the map in various search patterns trying to locate enemy units to destroy otherwise I cannot reduce the enemies victory points enough to win the game. During the Search and Destroy, I would find enemy tank platoons tucked away in the middle of woods etc in totally ineffective positions to have any influence on the battle to effect its outcome.

So, I just take victory points with a pinch of salt and if I have achieved what I wanted to achieve, then I just end the game and disregard it being a draw.

(in reply to Rosseau)
Post #: 6
RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/25/2018 11:10:01 AM   
PoorOldSpike


Posts: 228
Joined: 4/19/2008
From: Plymouth, England
Status: offline 		Yes guys, it seems the games AI isn't so hot at recognising when to automatically end a battle; I'll run tests to try to find a way round it.

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Post #: 7
RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/25/2018 1:03:28 PM   
kevinkins


Posts: 2257
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		In the scheme of things, the AI placing that tank platoon in a useless position is more concerning. It's like the AI found an old silver mine shaft in the desert at the NTC. Anyway, if the code underneath the "end" button just calculated the victory on the spot, the never ending scenario issue would go away I think.

Kevin

_____________________________

“The study of history lies at the foundation of all sound military conclusions and practice.”
― Alfred Thayer Mahan


(in reply to PoorOldSpike)
Post #: 8
RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/25/2018 5:00:04 PM   
PoorOldSpike


Posts: 228
Joined: 4/19/2008
From: Plymouth, England
Status: offline 		Here's a small generated experimental battle I just did, I selected 900 points which gave an Estimated game length of 9 mins.
It's a "Round"-type battle of 1 minute per round.
I chose to be Defender and manually bought just these two Challengers on the left and deployed them in trees, I bought nothing else at all.
I set the Russian as "Armoured" and let them "Auto-buy" their stuff, so I didn't know what they were going to throw at me.
I hit 'Go' and first contact occurred after just 43 secs on turn 1 as below.
Note the "victory bars" at the top of the screen; the Russki bar is about twice as long as mine which presumably means he's got twice as many units as me (gulp)..





Below: After 8 mins my two Challengers have been killing the Russkis like flies and braving their return fire like bosses, (I never issued any orders whatsoever) and the Russki victory bar is shrinking fast.
Note the trees around my southern Chall caught light, so the tank cleverly pulled out of them on its own initiative-





Below- after 11 mins I've lost both Challengers but the Russkis have suffered appalling losses and his vict bar has shrunk to zero-





And a few seconds later this screen comes up-




The post-game screen-




Conclusions-
1- Even though I only bought 2 Challs and never issued a single order, the AI enemy still couldn't beat them, his "teeth" were 6x T-64's and a lot of APC's and infantry, and a smattering of AT-missile vehs and SP mortars.
2- The "Estimated" game length was 9 mins but it ran to over 11 mins and only ended when the Russki vict bar dropped to zero.

< Message edited by PoorOldSpike -- 11/25/2018 5:19:50 PM >

(in reply to kevinkins)
Post #: 9
RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/25/2018 5:24:46 PM   
Veitikka


Posts: 1304
Joined: 6/25/2007
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Rinkleff

Can we get some clarification on victory levels, victory points, and the end of the game? I had a battle that ended prematurely, and would like to know what adjustments to make so this doesn't happen again. There should be an option to 'continue' battle.


From the manual:

5.6.3. Victory Points And Objectives

The battle ends when one side runs out of ‘victory points’. During the battle the player can prevent them from going down by occupying objective locations. Casualties make the victory points drop quickly. The balance between objectives and casualties is affected by the mission type. The Battle Generator default value is based on the sector size and the force types. For example, if the sector is large and the force type is infantry, then it will probably take a long time for the units to travel across the map, so the system estimates that it will be a long battle and the victory point level should be high. The scenario designer can adjust the value as he sees fit. If the value is too low then the scenario can end too soon. If the value is too high then there can be prolonged waiting even after all the objectives have been taken.


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Post #: 10
RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/25/2018 5:25:52 PM   
Veitikka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Rinkleff

Does increasing victory points make the game shorter or longer? Is there any effect by a timer on length of the battle?


By increasing victory points you usually make the battle last longer.


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Post #: 11
RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/25/2018 5:31:12 PM   
Veitikka


Posts: 1304
Joined: 6/25/2007
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kevinkin

In my experience, the estimated time is always short. After wiping out the enemy, I still have to wait for the scoring bar to hit zero and disappear. Not sure why the end battle button is there since it always results in a draw. Might be nice if it calculated the real victory at the time it was pressed to save the player a little time.

Edit: the battle I finished just now was predicted to last 1 hour 40 mins. Combat ended after 2 hours 15 mins. I had to hit Start and Fast until 5 hour and 45 mins until the red bar went to zero for the USSR. I got a Total Victory. Maybe the problem was the AI placed a tank platoon in a spot with zero LOS and it could not move due to restricting terrain. So the software was waiting for the platoon to engage - which it couldn't. Perhaps a corner chase.

Kevin


One common issue is that the player doesn't use all points he has available for the force A or B, and that makes the scenario last longer than it should. See the tooltip for the 'DONE' button in the unit selection screen:

"It's important to use as much of the available purchase points as possible (unless you're buying for the player side and using the 'dynamic' force type), so the victory point system works optimally."

I'm planning to have a fix for this in the near future patches.


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Post #: 12
RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/25/2018 5:33:39 PM   
Veitikka


Posts: 1304
Joined: 6/25/2007
From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rosseau

I've just been experimenting, but that is one issue that's probably on the to-do list. Combat Mission you can end early and get the current stats.


I don't quite agree that the player should be allowed to end the battle whenever he wishes and get the end result based on the current state. At the moment he may be winning, but later in the battle he could be losing.


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Post #: 13
RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/25/2018 5:40:11 PM   
Veitikka


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From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PoorOldSpike

Yes guys, it seems the games AI isn't so hot at recognising when to automatically end a battle; I'll run tests to try to find a way round it.


It's the scenario designer's responsibility to test that the victory point level is set correct. Less victory points -> shorter battle, more victory points -> longer battle.


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Post #: 14
RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/25/2018 5:49:17 PM   
Veitikka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kevinkin

In the scheme of things, the AI placing that tank platoon in a useless position is more concerning. It's like the AI found an old silver mine shaft in the desert at the NTC.


With the 'dynamic AI' it's guaranteed to happen now and then. Even if the tanks are in the woods they can still be used for counterattacks.


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Post #: 15
RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/25/2018 5:52:36 PM   
Veitikka


Posts: 1304
Joined: 6/25/2007
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PoorOldSpike

1- Even though I only bought 2 Challs and never issued a single order, the AI enemy still couldn't beat them, his "teeth" were 6x T-64's and a lot of APC's and infantry, and a smattering of AT-missile vehs and SP mortars.


Uh, to me it looks like your Challs were killed?

quote:



2- The "Estimated" game length was 9 mins but it ran to over 11 mins and only ended when the Russki vict bar dropped to zero.


11 minutes instead of 9 minutes of estimated time? Is there a problem here?


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Post #: 16
RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/25/2018 6:05:09 PM   
Veitikka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PoorOldSpike

only ended when the Russki vict bar dropped to zero.


By the way, this is how the victory point system works. The battle ends when one side runs out of victory points. There's no 'time limit' anywhere.


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Post #: 17
RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/25/2018 7:19:46 PM   
PoorOldSpike


Posts: 228
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From: Plymouth, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka

One common issue is that the player doesn't use all points he has available for the force A or B, and that makes the scenario last longer than it should. See the tooltip for the 'DONE' button in the unit selection screen:

"It's important to use as much of the available purchase points as possible (unless you're buying for the player side and using the 'dynamic' force type), so the victory point system works optimally."

I'm planning to have a fix for this in the near future patches.



But if I only want to play a small fast-moving battle, I don't want to buy a lot of units.
I'll have to run more tests to try to understand everything, I hate mathematics..:)


< Message edited by PoorOldSpike -- 11/25/2018 7:22:27 PM >

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Post #: 18
RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/25/2018 7:55:06 PM   
kevinkins


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quote:

I don't quite agree that the player should be allowed to end the battle whenever he wishes and get the end result based on the current state. At the moment he may be winning, but later in the battle he could be losing.


I think we a talking about when the battle is clearly over and nothing has happened for say ten minutes. It took 30 mins of mouse clicking to end my battle last night. But, I did not realize the length of the no action end game is related to unused unit points. Point taken. Glad there is a fix underway for that.

_____________________________

“The study of history lies at the foundation of all sound military conclusions and practice.”
― Alfred Thayer Mahan


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Post #: 19
RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/25/2018 8:08:26 PM   
kevinkins


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quote:

The battle ends when one side runs out of victory points. There's no 'time limit' anywhere.


That seems to imply battles only end with the (almost) complete destruction of one side or the other.
That is, the AI will exhaust all it's troops to retake objectives that it has no hope to re-capture.
Is that correct? This may explain why my scenario lasted so long since that one enemy platoon was "active" and trapped in that "mine shaft".

Kevin

< Message edited by kevinkin -- 11/25/2018 9:57:09 PM >

_____________________________

“The study of history lies at the foundation of all sound military conclusions and practice.”
― Alfred Thayer Mahan


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Post #: 20
RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/25/2018 9:15:22 PM   
Adam Rinkleff

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka

By the way, this is how the victory point system works. The battle ends when one side runs out of victory points. There's no 'time limit' anywhere.



That's good, but then what is the point of the 'estimated time' in mission generation? How are victory points actually used. I assume a combination of victory locations and casualties, but the details are unclear?

(in reply to Veitikka)
Post #: 21
RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/25/2018 10:13:19 PM   
Adam Rinkleff

 

Posts: 375
Joined: 7/24/2007
Status: offline 		In my next game, I'm going to crank the vp level up to its maximum value, and then concentrate all the objectives at the front. Hopefully that will avoid what I saw in the previous game, where the battle ends before most of the forces have engaged each other.

(in reply to Adam Rinkleff)
Post #: 22
RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/25/2018 10:57:10 PM   
PoorOldSpike


Posts: 228
Joined: 4/19/2008
From: Plymouth, England
Status: offline 		Another observation I've made is that even if all shooting and movement has stopped, the battle still won't end.
Instead, the vict bars will continue to slowly drop for a further number of turns until one bar reaches zero, triggering the endgame screen.
One way round it is to go to maximum Fast speed to whizz through those final "no action" turns to get them over with, rather than sit twiddling our thumbs and yawning..:)

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Post #: 23
RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/26/2018 3:08:11 PM   
varangy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PoorOldSpike

Another observation I've made is that even if all shooting and movement has stopped, the battle still won't end.


quote:

From the manual:

5.6.3. Victory Points And Objectives

The battle ends when one side runs out of ‘victory points’.

(in reply to PoorOldSpike)
Post #: 24
RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/26/2018 4:25:38 PM   
kevinkins


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quote:

One way round it is to go to maximum Fast speed to whizz through those final "no action" turns to get them over with, rather than sit twiddling our thumbs and yawning..:)


It took me 30 mins the other night to whizz through the "end game". . Apparently the software does not like unused purchased points. Not sure why it does not focus on what was actually purchased, but what do I know. Additionally, the AI put a USSR tank platoon in a location with no LOS nor ability to move. I think that may have screwed with things too.

Kevin

_____________________________

“The study of history lies at the foundation of all sound military conclusions and practice.”
― Alfred Thayer Mahan


(in reply to PoorOldSpike)
Post #: 25
RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/26/2018 5:48:24 PM   
Veitikka


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From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kevinkin

Not sure why it does not focus on what was actually purchased, but what do I know.


The original idea was that if you buy a very small force, and leave a lot of unused points, then you are allowed to take more losses without losing that big % of victory points.

Anyway, has anyone played the original 'Battlefield 1942'? Our victory point system works pretty much the same way.


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Post #: 26
RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/28/2018 4:40:35 AM   
Werezak

 

Posts: 100
Joined: 4/11/2013
Status: offline 		That's how I thought about it too when I read that part of the manual... very much like the "tickets" in BF1942.

Basically it's like dynamic counter that slows down if you hold objectives (??? don't know the details though) and also has time removed if you take losses.

I didn't think it was that confusing...

< Message edited by Werezak -- 11/28/2018 4:44:13 AM >

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Post #: 27
RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/28/2018 9:28:30 AM   
kevinkins


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Joined: 3/8/2006
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quote:

The original idea was that if you buy a very small force, and leave a lot of unused points, then you are allowed to take more losses without losing that big % of victory points.


I see now, thanks. I was allocating too many points so I could get the exact force I wanted. If you select too few, the player has to start all over again since we currently don't have a "back" button where the previous selections are retained. Having a back button or the ability to "trim" excess points would be nice, but not critical right now.

_____________________________

“The study of history lies at the foundation of all sound military conclusions and practice.”
― Alfred Thayer Mahan


(in reply to Veitikka)
Post #: 28
RE: victory levels, how do they work - 11/28/2018 7:29:04 PM   
Veitikka


Posts: 1304
Joined: 6/25/2007
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kevinkin


quote:

The original idea was that if you buy a very small force, and leave a lot of unused points, then you are allowed to take more losses without losing that big % of victory points.


I see now, thanks. I was allocating too many points so I could get the exact force I wanted. If you select too few, the player has to start all over again since we currently don't have a "back" button where the previous selections are retained. Having a back button or the ability to "trim" excess points would be nice, but not critical right now.


If you select the 'dynamic' force type for the player side then there are no point limitations. I'm planning to implement a more flexible point system for the opposing side in the near future patches.


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Post #: 29
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