Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

Panzers and motorised can attack across major rivers but it costs an extra 12 MP for them to do so perhaps you don't have the MP to do so?
So to do a deliberate attack over a major river costs 28MP which is a very large amount to save ahead of time
They also get bigger debuffs in rolls for attacks over major rivers comapred to infantry

quote:

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

The trick is to do it with infantry and not the panzers but everything has an increase in MP costs with minor and major river actions as they were harder to do than just attacking over a field etc
the costs are in the manual on the ground movement bit I think?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarauderPL

So why normal inf division have an easy time crossing it comparing to the motorized? In my post i wanted to emphasize the difference between regular and motorized inf - why it is so big? Not talking about absolute MP numbers, they are and will be always arbitrary.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarauderPL

It is very prohibitive. In history they fought over the rivers but do we know how many MP's they used by doing so?

On the other hand, im unsure why motorized infantry has penalties fighting over rivers, its gonna establish the bridgehead just like a normal inf div would - and then get its stuff over to the other bank way easier - it is motorized after all (moving artillery park, supply columns etc would be much faster).
Panzer divisions have debuffs as the bridges to hold tanks need to be sturdier (and take more time to build) - but it is not the case of mot inf.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlexSF

In my opinion on the contrary, the game is one of the few wargame that properly simulate the difficulty to cross major rivers in Russia. Have a look at a picture of the Dnepr for instance, it's super wide, virtually impossible to croos without a bridge and I'm not even talking about the Volga. It would take days or easily a week of MPs to have engineers build some sort of bridge.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JTP

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlexSF

In my opinion on the contrary, the game is one of the few wargame that properly simulate the difficulty to cross major rivers in Russia. Have a look at a picture of the Dnepr for instance, it's super wide, virtually impossible to croos without a bridge and I'm not even talking about the Volga. It would take days or easily a week of MPs to have engineers build some sort of bridge.

In the Smolensk campaign, the XXXIX Pzc of Pg3 constructed a bridge across the Dvina in one *night* and crossed that morning. 20th Panzer specifically, midway between Polotsk and Vitebsk.

Pzg 2 started their attack across the Dnepr on 7/10 and crossed it in force that same day. They had spent the previous two days traveling to, and organizing at, their jump off points. Not building bridges, etc.

Neither example is possible in the game. Similar events occurred in France 1940.

Above examples from Glantz.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlexSF

quote:

ORIGINAL: JTP

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlexSF

In my opinion on the contrary, the game is one of the few wargame that properly simulate the difficulty to cross major rivers in Russia. Have a look at a picture of the Dnepr for instance, it's super wide, virtually impossible to croos without a bridge and I'm not even talking about the Volga. It would take days or easily a week of MPs to have engineers build some sort of bridge.

In the Smolensk campaign, the XXXIX Pzc of Pg3 constructed a bridge across the Dvina in one *night* and crossed that morning. 20th Panzer specifically, midway between Polotsk and Vitebsk.

Pzg 2 started their attack across the Dnepr on 7/10 and crossed it in force that same day. They had spent the previous two days traveling to, and organizing at, their jump off points. Not building bridges, etc.

Neither example is possible in the game. Similar events occurred in France 1940.

Above examples from Glantz.

You have a point. On the other hand even if they did cross these rivers on the first night it was not the whole Pzr division, probably recon elements at first..etc To deploy the full strengh of the division in game terms and use its CV against an enemy it would translate into many MPs and I think the game simulates that well.
As for France the Meuse is hardly comparable to the Dnepr or the Volga.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

If major rivers did not have the kind of debuffs attached to them as they do then you would quickly find prepared defences being removed by hasty attacks, needing no prepping and planning to assault beforehand and becoming pocket traps for anyone who tried to defend them, they are already dangerous to defend as it is, they just ultimately buy the Soviets a bit of time

Anyhows you can hastily assault a major river now when the enemy is not prepared and you can catch them off guard which was the intended plans in a lot of the quick river crossings but if there are any prepared defences ready then you have to prepare an assault yourself which is fair enough to me

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bokonon

Still a beginner, but hoping to move into 'intermediate' level. Ran up against this in my first real run through of the scenario "Road to Moscow" yesterday.

Had to wait a turn for the infantry to come up to the front to help smash my way across the Dniper.

Sounds like I will need to do better management of my motorized divisions to get them more MPs and also I need to focus on getting enough infantry to the front quickly. Perhaps not running the motorized guys at max speed and keeping them closer to supply and/or just conserving fuel might help in that regard, but it is just too tempting to keep driving deep into enemy territory. :)

Thanks for the post.