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RE: Future Plans - 2/1/2019 6:10:40 PM   
Jason Petho


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quote:

Someone did say they were brand new games too. Jason said it a few posts up.


Campaign Series Vietnam is a brand new game.

< Message edited by Jason Petho -- 2/1/2019 6:11:02 PM >

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Post #: 61
RE: Future Plans - 2/1/2019 6:11:26 PM   
Crossroads


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quote:

ORIGINAL: XLVIIIPzKorp


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crossroads

Well that was a fun walk in the memory lane, with the early Talonsoft releases. I had totally forgotten that the first Battelground game was not Gettysburg, but the Battle of Ardennes / Bulge instead!







What a great little game that was for it's time. A Campaign Series Grandparent.

I still have a copy running on my machine for when I'm feeling nostalgic.



Have you played it for a while, do you recall how the phases work out within a players turn there? And what were those phases?

Edit: referring to Phase menu item seen in the screenshot above


< Message edited by Crossroads -- 2/1/2019 6:13:02 PM >

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CS: Vietnam 1948-1967 <-- Jan 20th, 2022! --
CS: Middle East 1948-1985 2.0

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Post #: 62
RE: Future Plans - 2/1/2019 8:02:35 PM   
XLVIIIPzKorp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crossroads

Have you played it for a while, do you recall how the phases work out within a players turn there? And what were those phases?

Edit: referring to Phase menu item seen in the screenshot above




Okay if I did this correctly there should be an image from the manual.

There are specifics to certain phases, for example indirect can only fire in prep fire phase, units that prep fire cannot move, etc.









Attachment (1)

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Post #: 63
RE: Future Plans - 2/1/2019 8:15:57 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Terrace, BC, Canada
Status: offline 		Could you imagine trying to play those phases with a PBEM?

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Post #: 64
RE: Future Plans - 2/1/2019 8:17:45 PM   
Crossroads


Posts: 17372
Joined: 7/5/2009
Status: offline 		Thanks! Interesting, and makes sense how they stuck to black powder era with the rest of the Battlefront series, seems quite complicated in WW2 setting.

Did it have a PBEM mode? How do you play PBEM with those phases, quite a few back-and-forth emails for one turn, four at least?

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CS: Vietnam 1948-1967 <-- Jan 20th, 2022! --
CS: Middle East 1948-1985 2.0

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Post #: 65
RE: Future Plans - 2/1/2019 8:22:15 PM   
Crossroads


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

Could you imagine trying to play those phases with a PBEM?





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---
CS: Vietnam 1948-1967 <-- Jan 20th, 2022! --
CS: Middle East 1948-1985 2.0

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Post #: 66
RE: Future Plans - 2/1/2019 9:52:17 PM   
tevans

 

Posts: 73
Joined: 6/16/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

quote:

Someone did say they were brand new games too. Jason said it a few posts up.


Campaign Series Vietnam is a brand new game.

It's a new theater for an existing game. Not a brand new game. You took the Campaign Series and tweaked it, enhanced it, added new graphics, data and scenarios. But you started with something and built on it. That's my point. Painting an old house doesn't make it brand new. I have no problem with the enhancements you're making. In fact I think they're good. My problem is with your claim that you're creating new games when essentially all you're doing is modding an old game. Are you saying that anybody who completely overhauls a game with a mod is essentially creating a new game? CS Vietnam is really just an overhaul of an existing game. You may have changed a lot but most mods do the same thing. I was playing a Vietnam mod for CS 10 or 15 years ago. There's a World War I mod over at the Blitz that I getting ready to try out too. Do you consider those mods new games too?

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Post #: 67
RE: Future Plans - 2/1/2019 10:07:22 PM   
RichMunn

 

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You remind me of the man who told me:

"My grandfather had the same sweeping brush for 50 years.

It had 20 new heads and 15 new handles. He loved that brush."


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Post #: 68
RE: Future Plans - 2/1/2019 10:08:41 PM   
Jason Petho


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From: Terrace, BC, Canada
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quote:

That's my point.


If everything is new, how can it not be new?



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Post #: 69
RE: Future Plans - 2/1/2019 10:11:50 PM   
tevans

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crossroads

It has been explained to you many times. If new code + new lua code engine + new data + new graphics + a new era/war to cover is not a game for you, so be it. For me it sure is.

Every single one of those things is being added to something that already exists. It's not a new engine that's been created from the ground up. That makes it a mod or an overhaul. Not a new game. Everything you listed has been done with modding in one game or another many times. Every single thing. So how is what you're doing different from modding? In my opinion it isn't any different. That doesn't mean that what you're doing is bad. In fact I think a lot of what you're doing is good but I have a problem when you try telling me that it's a brand new game. Improved and enhanced maybe. But not brand new built from the ground up. You guys didn't start with a clean slate. You started with what Tiller created and added to it. Divided Ground to CS Middle East is a good example of that.

If what you're doing is considered making new games then any modder who takes a game and changes it by modding is creating a new game every time they mod. Imagine what Creative Assembly would say about that if somebody actually tried to sell a Total War mod as a new game. Like I said take a look at Scourge of War Gettysburg or Waterloo. New graphics, data, maps, campaigns and battles have all been created for those games. Code has been changed either through scripting or actual code changes to make the AI do certain things. Are those mods considered new games too? They do the same thing you guys are doing. Using Jason's Model T analogy you guys are basically taking a Model T adding parts to it and trying to sell it as a Ferrari. It's still just a Model T even if the parts you add improve upon the original design.

(in reply to Crossroads)
Post #: 70
RE: Future Plans - 2/1/2019 10:54:26 PM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Terrace, BC, Canada
Status: offline 		Back in the day, Talonsoft released East Front.

Then they released West Front.

You're suggesting that West Front was just a mod, correct?

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Post #: 71
RE: Future Plans - 2/1/2019 11:17:17 PM   
budd


Posts: 2972
Joined: 7/4/2009
From: Tacoma
Status: offline 		I'll take a shot.
By your definition a lot of games created, marketed and sold as new games would i guess just be mods. As far as i know Tiller's doesn't create content anymore, his engine is used in Panzer Campaigns, Panzer Battles, are these games just mods, or not because there sold under the Tiller banner. Panzer Battles is created by another dev using a modified Tiller engine but its OK because its sold on the Tiller site? I guess i just don't get why single out these games, namely CSME and CS Vietnam. Basically almost any continuation using the same engine would be a mod by your definition or is it just when a company other than the original creator of the engine does it? AGEOD engine was used by another dev to create games using there engine, are those mods, well they were sold as new games. A lot of games use the same engine for continuation of a style of games or series. They change the graphics, maybe add features to the engine, sounds, ect. they are then sold as new games. I just don't see the difference when compared to the CS games.

Another point, what about dev's that just license other people's engines, are all those games mods? Unreal engine, Unity, what ever engine ID is selling, i mean there just building on someone else's engine. however you want to categorize games or mods is up to you, it just appears that your not really applying your definition equally and are singling these games out for some reason.

Thanks for the discussion





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I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

(in reply to tevans)
Post #: 72
RE: Future Plans - 2/2/2019 12:20:01 AM   
Warhorse


Posts: 5712
Joined: 5/12/2000
From: Birdsboro, PA, USA
Status: offline 		Someone change the record, it just keeps repeating over and over, reminds me of Dumnorix....

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Post #: 73
RE: Future Plans - 2/2/2019 12:29:12 AM   
tevans

 

Posts: 73
Joined: 6/16/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Warhorse

Someone change the record, it just keeps repeating over and over, reminds me of Dumnorix....

If you don't like the conversation, don't read it. Nobody forces you.

(in reply to Warhorse)
Post #: 74
RE: Future Plans - 2/2/2019 12:36:49 AM   
Warhorse


Posts: 5712
Joined: 5/12/2000
From: Birdsboro, PA, USA
Status: offline 		Yeah, not going to anymore... Ahh, the joy of being able to block!!

< Message edited by Warhorse -- 2/2/2019 12:37:57 AM >

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Meine Ehre heißt Treue
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Post #: 75
RE: Future Plans - 2/2/2019 1:11:29 AM   
tevans

 

Posts: 73
Joined: 6/16/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: budd

I'll take a shot.
By your definition a lot of games created, marketed and sold as new games would i guess just be mods. As far as i know Tiller's doesn't create content anymore, his engine is used in Panzer Campaigns, Panzer Battles, are these games just mods, or not because there sold under the Tiller banner. Panzer Battles is created by another dev using a modified Tiller engine but its OK because its sold on the Tiller site? I guess i just don't get why single out these games, namely CSME and CS Vietnam. Basically almost any continuation using the same engine would be a mod by your definition or is it just when a company other than the original creator of the engine does it? AGEOD engine was used by another dev to create games using there engine, are those mods, well they were sold as new games. A lot of games use the same engine for continuation of a style of games or series. They change the graphics, maybe add features to the engine, sounds, ect. they are then sold as new games. I just don't see the difference when compared to the CS games.

Another point, what about dev's that just license other people's engines, are all those games mods? Unreal engine, Unity, what ever engine ID is selling, i mean there just building on someone else's engine. however you want to categorize games or mods is up to you, it just appears that your not really applying your definition equally and are singling these games out for some reason.

Thanks for the discussion





No there's a difference. The difference is a developer created that game engine and reused it. That's how we got from West Front to East Front. Tiller does it with every one of his series ie. Panzer Campaigns, Squad Battles etc. People buying from Tiller know that. They know that the rules for each series are pretty much going to be the same. They know the look and feel of each game is going to be the same. All because the same engine is used. That's not what's happening here. These guys are taking somebody else's work and adding to it then claiming they've created a new game. Even if all they keep is just one line of Tiller's code it still makes what they're doing nothing more than modding.

By Jason's own admission they're still using some of Tiller's original base code. That makes everything they're doing the same as modding. They're modifying and changing an existing game. They aren't building anything from the ground up or creating anything from scratch. Yet they claim to be creating new games. How are they new? They may have enhanced and added features but it's still the same game. CS Vietnam isn't going to change so drastically that it won't play like a Campaign Series game.

One other thing too. I'm not just singling out these guys working on the Campaign Series. I feel the same way about the TOAW series too and said so when TOAW III was released. Norm Koger created that game and engine. He tweaked and refined the game over the years. Somebody else added to Koger's work and then claimed TOAW III was a brand new game. Since then they've went on to create TOAW IV too. No doubt they changed and added things to the original game system that made it better. That doesn't mean they created a new game. They had something to work with by using Koger's work just the same as these guys did starting with Tiller's work. You can't change or modify code if it isn't there and Jason said in a previous post that's what they're doing even though they kept some of Tiller's base code.


(in reply to budd)
Post #: 76
RE: Future Plans - 2/2/2019 1:12:16 AM   
tevans

 

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Joined: 6/16/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Warhorse

Yeah, not going to anymore... Ahh, the joy of being able to block!!

Good for you. You added nothing to conversation and blocked because you didn't like it. Why not just not read it?

(in reply to Warhorse)
Post #: 77
RE: Future Plans - 2/2/2019 1:20:16 AM   
tevans

 

Posts: 73
Joined: 6/16/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

Back in the day, Talonsoft released East Front.

Then they released West Front.

You're suggesting that West Front was just a mod, correct?

Wrong. West Front and East Front were created by the same developer. That developer created the game engine. Most developers will use the same game engine to create more than one game with it. That's a lot different than what you're doing. You're taking somebody else's work then changing and adding to it and calling it a new game. Modders do what you're doing. They change graphics, data and code. They add new scenarios and campaigns. How is what you're doing any different. What you're doing doesn't make you a developer. It just means that you're a talented modder.

(in reply to Jason Petho)
Post #: 78
RE: Future Plans - 2/2/2019 1:27:12 AM   
tevans

 

Posts: 73
Joined: 6/16/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RichMunn


You remind me of the man who told me:

"My grandfather had the same sweeping brush for 50 years.

It had 20 new heads and 15 new handles. He loved that brush."



Isn't that pretty much what's happening with the Campaign Series? Slapping some new graphics, data and code into it and calling it a new game. New brush handles and brush heads represent the graphics, code and data. I got a better one for you putting paint on a old house doesn't make it a brand new house. Just a nicer looking house. The house is this case was Tiller's original design. The paint represents everything being changed through addition or subtraction to the game.

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Post #: 79
RE: Future Plans - 2/2/2019 1:38:05 AM   
Warhorse


Posts: 5712
Joined: 5/12/2000
From: Birdsboro, PA, USA
Status: offline 		And can't wait till the day my Korean War MOD is made into a bonifide DLC for Vietnam, This game is gonna rock, so much new comment, appreciate all you folks following the progress of M/S devel on this!

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Post #: 80
RE: Future Plans - 2/2/2019 1:40:56 AM   
XLVIIIPzKorp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Crossroads

Thanks! Interesting, and makes sense how they stuck to black powder era with the rest of the Battlefront series, seems quite complicated in WW2 setting.

Did it have a PBEM mode? How do you play PBEM with those phases, quite a few back-and-forth emails for one turn, four at least?



Indeed it did have PBEM options however by my reading of the procedure one complete turn by both players would've required 6 email exchanges!! Certainly not gonna be knocking out 5 turns a day.

I used to play on a home network, or solitaire.

We've come a long way eh?

(in reply to Crossroads)
Post #: 81
RE: Future Plans - 2/2/2019 2:12:08 AM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Terrace, BC, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho
You're suggesting that West Front was just a mod, correct?

Wrong.


Ah, OK!

The Divid Ground was the mod!

I get it now!

Thank you for your opinion.




_____________________________


CS Vietnam

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Post #: 82
RE: Future Plans - 2/2/2019 2:56:24 AM   
jrono

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 6/6/2018
Status: offline 		I love modding so I'm good to go. Especially when I have had great fun with these mods since 1995 and I've maybe spent 150.00 starting with the Bulge. So mod away. These games are a blast.

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Post #: 83
RE: Future Plans - 2/2/2019 3:39:08 AM   
budd


Posts: 2972
Joined: 7/4/2009
From: Tacoma
Status: offline 		So then AGE engine games not created by AGEOD, you would consider mods? There's also those two Hearts of Iron games Darkest Hour and Arsenal of Democracy, all sold as new games. The Hearts of Iron games may be a weak example as i believe those were marketed as expanded Hearts of Iron games. Again there are plenty of Dev teams that license other companies engines and expand those engines and release those products as new games. Using other people's engines is what is done these days it seems. It's what Slitherine/Matrix does, Archon their new engine is being used by multiple dev teams altered and changed and added to for whatever game there making. I just don't see the difference to what is being done on these games. All those dev teams using other people's engines surely cant be all mods, can they

_____________________________

Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde

*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

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Post #: 84
RE: Future Plans - 2/2/2019 3:47:48 AM   
tevans

 

Posts: 73
Joined: 6/16/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho


quote:

ORIGINAL: tevans

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho
You're suggesting that West Front was just a mod, correct?

Wrong.


Ah, OK!

The Divid Ground was the mod!

I get it now!

Thank you for your opinion.




Show me where I said that. Apparently you don't get anything. All you're doing is making snide remarks because you don't like what I have to say. Divided Ground was a full game the same as East Front and West Front. Created by Tiller and published by Talonsoft. If anything was the mod it was CS Middle East because you started from Divided Ground and added to it. The changes you made were nice but you didn't really create a new game with CS Middle East. CS Middle East wasn't built from the ground up. You had something to work with to get you started. The same is true of CS Vietnam and the rest of the series too. Look up the definition of modding and you'll find that it's exactly what you're doing no matter what you want to call it.

(in reply to Jason Petho)
Post #: 85
RE: Future Plans - 2/2/2019 3:54:10 AM   
budd


Posts: 2972
Joined: 7/4/2009
From: Tacoma
Status: offline 		I do have a game question. At any point in the future will this series get slitherine pbem+ support added?

_____________________________

Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde

*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

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Post #: 86
RE: Future Plans - 2/2/2019 5:33:25 AM   
tevans

 

Posts: 73
Joined: 6/16/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: budd

So then AGE engine games not created by AGEOD, you would consider mods? There's also those two Hearts of Iron games Darkest Hour and Arsenal of Democracy, all sold as new games. The Hearts of Iron games may be a weak example as i believe those were marketed as expanded Hearts of Iron games. Again there are plenty of Dev teams that license other companies engines and expand those engines and release those products as new games. Using other people's engines is what is done these days it seems. It's what Slitherine/Matrix does, Archon their new engine is being used by multiple dev teams altered and changed and added to for whatever game there making. I just don't see the difference to what is being done on these games. All those dev teams using other people's engines surely cant be all mods, can they

The Ageod engine games are new games that just used the Ageod engine. They didn't take an actual Ageod game and rework it into something else. They started with the engine and worked from the ground up. In other words they didn't take Civil War II and try to turn it into something else. How can you not see the difference? Anybody can do what's being done with the Campaign Series. There was a Vietnam mod for CS 10 or 15 years ago. There's also a World War I mod too.

As for the Hearts of Iron games -Darkest Hour & Arsenal of Democracy- I believe that they should be considered mods. They took the base Hearts of Iron 2 game as a start and added to it. That doesn't make them brand new games though. Just different iterations of Hearts of Iron 2. One of the best mods out for Crusader Kings II is the Game of Thrones mod. That turned Crusader Kings II into Game of Thrones. They did it by modding data, some graphics and creating scenarios. I'm not sure if they changed code though. They didn't claim it was a brand new game though. Using other peoples engines to create something new and original is fine. Adding on to other people's work and ideas then claiming you created something new and original isn't.

Not once have I ever said that the enhancements they're making to the series is a bad thing. In fact I think it's good. I love what they did with CS Middle East. Let's not kid ourselves though. CS Middle East would not be possible without Divided Ground coming first. CS Vietnam and all the other planned versions of games wouldn't be possible without the older versions existing. What Jason explained to me in a previous post about how they're changing code, graphics and data plus adding new scenarios is exactly what modding is. They aren't just using the game engine. They're using the current existing games as a foundation to add on to. In other words whatever comes isn't really groundbreaking, new or original.

As I said Jason's explanation of what they're doing is no different than modding. Look at some of the mods that have been created for games. Some mods change everything from graphics to code. They call those mods overhauls. They still aren't considered brand new games. They still need the base game to work. I just don't understand how anybody can take somebody else's work or ideas and add to it then claim that they've created something brand new. CS Vietnam will be a new theater for the Campaign Series with some new enhancements and features. It will (hopefully) still be a Campaign Series game though. Tiller created the game systems for the Campaign Series. Each game in the series pretty much plays the same way. So how can anybody claim they've made a new game using his systems and ideas?

< Message edited by tevans -- 2/2/2019 5:40:50 AM >

(in reply to budd)
Post #: 87
RE: Future Plans - 2/2/2019 5:54:24 AM   
Jason Petho


Posts: 15009
Joined: 6/22/2004
From: Terrace, BC, Canada
Status: offline 		We get it. You think that anything not created by the original developers is a mod.

Different strokes for different folks.

We disagree. So be it.



_____________________________


CS Vietnam

More info: Facebook & CS Legion

(in reply to tevans)
Post #: 88
RE: Future Plans - 2/2/2019 7:02:45 AM   
Crossroads


Posts: 17372
Joined: 7/5/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: budd

I do have a game question. At any point in the future will this series get slitherine pbem+ support added?


I do like pbem++ myself too, it is a neat system. It is on our internal wish list, but we've not yet looked at any detail, nor asked Matrix what complexities are involved in adding it to the system.

The near future plan is all about turning the vs-AI experience totally into something new.

Here's the relevant question from the CS Vietnam survey a while ago, with two thirds of the 300 or so responders indicating they prefer AI as their main opponent:



With the work going into CS Event Engine, AI now has battle plans, and can react to tactical events taking place in the map with quite some detail. Where the AI of the old was able to put a decent defence, the new AI will defend, attack, and maneuver with gusto

The next complete overhaul, hopefully for the East Front release, will be the Battle Generator. As good ole PBEM system continues to be available, PBEM++ as neat it is will be a lesses priority.

_____________________________

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---
CS: Vietnam 1948-1967 <-- Jan 20th, 2022! --
CS: Middle East 1948-1985 2.0

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Post #: 89
RE: Future Plans - 2/2/2019 7:14:47 AM   
Crossroads


Posts: 17372
Joined: 7/5/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: XLVIIIPzKorp


quote:

ORIGINAL: Crossroads

Thanks! Interesting, and makes sense how they stuck to black powder era with the rest of the Battlefront series, seems quite complicated in WW2 setting.

Did it have a PBEM mode? How do you play PBEM with those phases, quite a few back-and-forth emails for one turn, four at least?



Indeed it did have PBEM options however by my reading of the procedure one complete turn by both players would've required 6 email exchanges!! Certainly not gonna be knocking out 5 turns a day.

I used to play on a home network, or solitaire.

We've come a long way eh?


Oh, that's right, three phases per side for a full turn!

I can see how it makes sense for the other Battleground games set in the black powder era, but for WW2 perhaps not so.

_____________________________

Visit us at: Campaign Series Legion
---
CS: Vietnam 1948-1967 <-- Jan 20th, 2022! --
CS: Middle East 1948-1985 2.0

(in reply to XLVIIIPzKorp)
Post #: 90
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