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RE: Neogodhobo VS TheLysander AAR

 
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RE: Neogodhobo VS TheLysander AAR - 2/28/2019 11:36:46 PM   
Saulust

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 8/25/2018
Status: offline 		Sorry Neogoodhobo, I did say I wasn't having a go at you over your FBD pathways, I realised you weren't claiming expert status whatever, but I was really just asking for others to chime in and discuss... besides I thought you said you welcomed comments or advice somewhere in this thread anyway. I just wanted some discussion on FBD handling & pathways, not trying to diss you.

On a different subject slightly related to routes and pathways, I think both the FBD 4 and Pz Grp 4 should have been heading for Pskov, not Narva. I thought about Narva once or twice early on but I have now come to the conclusion that 18th Army Infantry is enough to go that way, not Pz Grp 4 or even one of its Pz Korps. Now at the most I might threaten the area and quickly flip north-east Estonia for faster ID movement through the area with a single solitary Mot Div which I may use to grab Tallin with or slip through the marsh between the two Lakes above Pskov or at least threaten to do so while I storm Pskov and area, but that's just me. ATM I am however toying with using the FBD to go as far north-east as Hex 67, Y 25, the RR hex above Tartu across the Emajogi River on turn 6, I think, but then bring it back down to Pskov fixing the triangle and then cross Velikaya River & into the key city over the next two turns... with this extension, which looks similar to your FBD left hook U-turn, I hope this helps to both threaten the Narva and the Lake breasted marsh approaches and sets up some RR connected airbase positions here for support and also helps the Btln RR construction units in their single hex advancement to reach both Tallin and Narva before & during the mud and ultimately Leningrad.

IMHO Pskov is the key gateway to Leningrad bar none, with its 6 RR spider web junction feature its the schiznitz. Narva is the only other northern route and I think it is too far north for the FBD RR to go, while Velikie Luki is too far south of Leningrad to go for getting to Leningrad at well over 20 hexes to the south there of. The only other twist and turning route to go through is Novosokolniki (two hexes west of VL) north to Dno, but I think Pskov is better for getting to Dno and beyond anyway...

Discuss... or disgust!

< Message edited by Saulust -- 3/1/2019 3:02:12 AM >

(in reply to Neogodhobo)
Post #: 91
RE: Neogodhobo VS TheLysander AAR - 2/28/2019 11:38:24 PM   
xhoel


Posts: 3219
Joined: 6/24/2017
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

Either way, the game is over now, so feel free to discussed.


Did you guys end the game? I thought you were going to continue?

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(in reply to Neogodhobo)
Post #: 92
RE: Neogodhobo VS TheLysander AAR - 3/1/2019 1:27:55 AM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline 		I have taken Leningrad without an assault on Pskov crossing north of Pskov and putting pressure on the Narva. It was associated with shutting down Osinovetes .. a plan with a strategy in mind sometimes ..

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Post #: 93
RE: Neogodhobo VS TheLysander AAR - 3/1/2019 3:38:49 AM   
Saulust

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 8/25/2018
Status: offline 		@ Crackaces, I'm not saying Leningrad can't be captured by a German player going via the Narva direction and completely bypassing Pskov, but I still think securing Pskov is best as an approach route to St Peter's overall, although I am quite impressed that you managed to achieve it without Pskov!

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough above but I am looking at the rail net very heavily in my approach here towards Leningrad and what I meant was that I feel rebuilding the RR all the way through Estonia up to Narva and beyond via Veymarn to Leningrad leaves too much between up here and the next RR repair route going to either V-L or Vitebsk, going to Pskov just looks more middle of the road spanning for future spreading of the railnet by Btlns one hex a turn. I may be overly focused on that, but anyway I also like the position of Pskov itself strategically.

I like to also consider my airbase and Me/Bf 109 & Ju-87 Stukas coverage and also I think running all the way up to the Gulf of Finland coast and along from that east waste a lot of coverage over water... I also think going to Leningrad via Plyussa from Pskov is also too North-West for me. I aim at least for Dno which gives me the option of going due north to Bateckaya or to Staraya Russa and then to Shimsk-Novgorod or else going further east to Bologoe in a really long right hook ... that threatens to swing down on the Moscow region from the far north flank.

Pskov itself gives you those kind of options, north, northeast directly assaulting Leningrad or east to either Novgorod or swinging south of Lake Ilman and hooking deeply. Keeps the Russians covering too many options or missing one and also psychologically off balance guessing which one too, hopefully encouraging a mistake.

Anyway these are my plans, works against the AI, but a human opponent don't know yet!

< Message edited by Saulust -- 3/1/2019 3:41:51 AM >

(in reply to Crackaces)
Post #: 94
RE: Neogodhobo VS TheLysander AAR - 3/1/2019 4:05:07 AM   
ledo

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 11/6/2017
Status: offline 		I've only played 4 games against human, but I've never attacked Pskov directly, dislodging the defense by attacking south of it and threatening an encirclement of the position usually forces them back to the Luga for me. I always try to sneak through the swamps if they let me and i find you can net some units if you put one motorized or panzer division on the Narva early, threatening to connect with units coming from the south. It gives you a shot at disrupting the Luga line even if it's not always successful.

Also having the AGN's Panzer Group to the south of Pskov concentrates almost two panzer groups between AGC, AGN and gives me the option of swinging them both towards the landbridge or north, even if I don't take the risk it can scare/confuse the soviet player.

< Message edited by ledo -- 3/1/2019 4:08:36 AM >

(in reply to Saulust)
Post #: 95
RE: Neogodhobo VS TheLysander AAR - 3/1/2019 12:08:03 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 2038
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline 		@Saulust

See railway path map in the library, link is in signature.
Most good players use something similiar to this, although many start from two points not one as shown on this map.

I personally do not like the Brest-Litovsk way.

In South, rail repair from Rumania is the way to go.

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Post #: 96
RE: Neogodhobo VS TheLysander AAR - 3/1/2019 3:36:11 PM   
Neogodhobo


Posts: 502
Joined: 8/17/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

quote:

Either way, the game is over now, so feel free to discussed.


Did you guys end the game? I thought you were going to continue?



It just became an impossible , not fun at all, thing to play, as my enemy had about 8 million soviets, I couldnt even do a proper offensive in the summer of 42 as he was pushing me back and creating pockets. The game ended when he pocketed 4 of my Panzer Army. I will post turn 32 to 53 soon and you guys will be able to take a look at it.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Saulust
Sorry Neogoodhobo, I did say I wasn't having a go at you over your FBD pathways,

I know, dont worry about it.

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Post #: 97
RE: Neogodhobo VS TheLysander AAR - 3/1/2019 4:06:52 PM   
Neogodhobo


Posts: 502
Joined: 8/17/2017
Status: offline 		So I have left out a lot of the turns that consisted in almost doing nothing (The Rasputitsa period). Following turns all range between 32+ to 55, the final turn


NORTHERN FRONT, Turn 47


















< Message edited by Neogodhobo -- 3/1/2019 4:10:55 PM >

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Post #: 98
RE: Neogodhobo VS TheLysander AAR - 3/1/2019 4:15:34 PM   
Neogodhobo


Posts: 502
Joined: 8/17/2017
Status: offline 		Central Front











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Post #: 99
RE: Neogodhobo VS TheLysander AAR - 3/1/2019 4:17:41 PM   
Neogodhobo


Posts: 502
Joined: 8/17/2017
Status: offline 		Possible plan for Summer Offensive






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Post #: 100
RE: Neogodhobo VS TheLysander AAR - 3/1/2019 4:20:31 PM   
bigbaba1111

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 7/2/2007
Status: offline 		omg. your AGN is at the brink of collapse. you plan the rescue the trapped divisions or retreat to the short defensive line north of lake peipus?

(in reply to Neogodhobo)
Post #: 101
RE: Neogodhobo VS TheLysander AAR - 3/1/2019 4:26:51 PM   
Neogodhobo


Posts: 502
Joined: 8/17/2017
Status: offline 		Southern Front


































The Germans Surrendered at that point.

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Post #: 102
RE: Neogodhobo VS TheLysander AAR - 3/1/2019 4:28:38 PM   
Neogodhobo


Posts: 502
Joined: 8/17/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba1111
omg. your AGN is at the brink of collapse. you plan the rescue the trapped divisions or retreat to the short defensive line north of lake peipus?



Yes I diverted infantry divisions to the North, instead of the South, but that did nothing, every attack I did on the Soviets would be squashed. I couldnt do anything.

It was total and utter chaos

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Post #: 103
RE: Neogodhobo VS TheLysander AAR - 3/1/2019 4:39:14 PM   
Neogodhobo


Posts: 502
Joined: 8/17/2017
Status: offline 		Turn 55 stats




















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Post #: 104
RE: Neogodhobo VS TheLysander AAR - 3/1/2019 4:39:57 PM   
Crackaces


Posts: 3858
Joined: 7/9/2011
Status: offline 		Without a lot of destruction of the Soviets in turns 1 = 8 ... there is a 8M man Soviet Army in 1942 and game ends ..
If a super Lvov pocket vs something less than HYLA ... Soviet losses interest ..
There has to be something interesting to come of this game ...

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"What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so"

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Post #: 105
RE: Neogodhobo VS TheLysander AAR - 3/1/2019 4:43:09 PM   
Neogodhobo


Posts: 502
Joined: 8/17/2017
Status: offline 		Exactly,I put all the information I could possibly think of, if you guys need anything else just ask.

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Post #: 106
RE: Neogodhobo VS TheLysander AAR - 3/1/2019 8:09:34 PM   
MattFL

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 2/27/2010
Status: offline 		Wow, I really don’t think I’ve ever seen anything quite like this. You know what would be really interesting - you two should now switch sides from this point (is that possible?) and have him take over the Germans from here and you the Russians and continue the game. :-)

There are some fundamental issues that you have that go beyond just the understanding of the game, most glaringly that you seem to fail to recognize things that are going to happen when they seem pretty obvious several turns in advance (ie. general strategic grasp of things). The disaster in the north was easily recognizable many turns in advance yet you left your boys at the gates of Leningrad to their doom. Further, until you understand the encirclement concept, it’s going to be an uphill struggle for you. The Germans don’t achieve success by fighting with their panzers or building big stacks with them, they achieve success by avoiding fighting with them where possible and just using them to exploit breakthroughs and cutting off masses of Russians. Sticking 4 Panzer Groups in the noose at the end there was kind of nuts as (from what I can see), with that much power concentrated you should have been able to achieve quite a bit more than getting them all surrounded. ;-)

From what i understand this is your first real game as Germans (I think i read that somewhere?). So my hat is off to you for putting together this battle report and laying yourself bare for all to see. It certainly underscores that this game has quite a learning curve.. I’m sure, like me, many folks who play this grew up on board games and have invaded Russia about 300 times in their lives. And even for those of us who have, the burn in period for this particular game is really high. Your report was intriguing because it was so vastly different than most any other posted here, at least that i’ve read. So A+ for an engaging battle report even if not such a competitive game. My recommendation is to go back and play turns 1-10 or so as the Germans against the AI, perfect an opening, identify your rail line strategy, review the command and supply rules, and learn a bit more of the some of the unique intricacies of the game and come back and do another AAR. I think the difference in play will be stunning. You may not win against a seasoned Soviet but you’ll be pushing forward in ‘42.........



(in reply to Neogodhobo)
Post #: 107
RE: Neogodhobo VS TheLysander AAR - 3/1/2019 8:46:44 PM   
Neogodhobo


Posts: 502
Joined: 8/17/2017
Status: offline 		I wish we could, I wish once you resign, the game would save in such sort that you could flip trough pages to see how the game progress, and decide to take over from there against whoever you want.

Yeah my only real experience (excluding this one here) was commanding teams of ground commanders in 4v4 games ( or 5v5 if air commander was included). But I did read about the Eastern Front my whole life so I am also familiar with the theater. I wanted a ground commander role in one of these games to gain experience but that has never happened so I decided to enroll on a 1v1.

I liked the game overall but 1942 was a bit of a stretch to try to continue with everything that had happened. I was expecting to have some hard times, yes, but especially more in 44/45 than early 42. Im very interested in having a match that goes until the end but I came to realize that the other players are smart to end the game sooner rather than later. Im still having difficulties playing while keeping CV in mind, I completely ignored that until someone came in private and pointed out to me the importance of understanding it.

So overall I got lots of work to do still. But it was still fun to play that game.
Im hoping to trying the Soviets in a 1v1, and Iv already started a AI campaign as the Germans, to practice more.

< Message edited by Neogodhobo -- 3/1/2019 8:47:15 PM >

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RE: Neogodhobo VS TheLysander AAR - 3/1/2019 8:54:22 PM   
Sammy5IsAlive

 

Posts: 514
Joined: 8/4/2014
Status: offline 		Firstly and most importantly, I really enjoyed the AAR and appreciate the effort you put into it. I think you deserve a lot of credit for continuing the game and the AAR past the point where it was clear that the game was lost. I hope you take away the enjoyment you were reporting on the last page rather than get demoralised by the last few turns. Whilst the game does have a steep learning curve I think that one of it strengths is that at least up to an intermediate level you really do learn quite quickly just by playing.

In your first post you said that you and you opponent had got through the first 6 turns in a day or two. IMHO if you are new to multiplayer play you will struggle to get away with playing at that pace - particularly as the Axis in the early turns. I don't think you have to play those early turns 'perfectly' in order to win as the Axis but I do think it is fair to say there is not a great deal of margin for error.

There may well be plenty here who feel that to compete you have to move panzer units down south from AGC to perform a 'conventional' Lvov pocket on T1. I'm not sure if I agree to that extent but what is certain is that you at least need to get to the rail-line immediately N. of Chernovtsy to that the SW front forces can't rail their way out. Otherwise you are facing an uphill struggle from the very beginning as the forces there are some of the Soviets' strongest units and tbh the game is balanced on the assumption that they do not escape. You should be able to cut the rail just with the PG1 forces - maybe play out the first turn of the Road to Kiev scenario a couple of times to work out the moves

(in reply to MattFL)
Post #: 109
RE: Neogodhobo VS TheLysander AAR - 3/1/2019 10:56:30 PM   
Saulust

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 8/25/2018
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

@Saulust

See railway path map in the library, link is in signature.
Most good players use something similiar to this, although many start from two points not one as shown on this map.

I personally do not like the Brest-Litovsk way.

In South, rail repair from Rumania is the way to go.


Yes I've already seen that RR Map and thanks for the resources EvK, cheers, I absolutely agree with you about Breast-Litovsk and like you said even some not-yet-good players do something similar to this;

I am currently placing my primary northern area route through Kaunus T1 with FBD 2 finishing just SW of the city and FBD 4 finished in Kaunus. While FBD 3 is either just arrived in the border town of Virbalis at the start of this line or sent to start another further northern route itself either using 1 last PRC point at Kretinga or in Taurage where you have it too, at the first red indicated arrow.

I end up one turn slower than yours going through Siauliai-Jelgava-Riga-Cesis-Valmera-Valga-heading to Pskov, but I am fine with that ATM, I even hook up to Tartu before coming back down to Pskov anyway. Not sure this is best overall, but I'm only against the poorly handled AI.

I also send one FBD via Vilnius to Minsk on a central route aiming to support a south flank approach to Moscow basically heading for Tula, so that leaves me one FBD going through Panevezis-Daugavpils-Polotsk (hopefully) heading to Vitebsk/Velikye Luki on the northern Moscow flank to either Rzhev or Peno-Torzhok-Kalinin. However plans are plans, but first need to deal with the obtrusive enemy of course.

One question looking at your T2 yellow RR with FBD 2, from Hex 58, Y 45 and beyond I thought there was a six range limit to RR repair from a connected railhead in the Baltic rail zone and only four in Russian RR zone, with a few notable exceptions around Odessa I think ATM, is the map old or am I confused?

< Message edited by Saulust -- 3/2/2019 4:09:04 AM >

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 110
RE: Neogodhobo VS TheLysander AAR - 3/1/2019 11:44:22 PM   
timmyab

 

Posts: 2044
Joined: 12/14/2010
From: Bristol, UK
Status: offline
quote:

One question looking at your T2 yellow RR with FBD 2, from Hex 58, Y 45 and beyond I thought there was a six range limit to RR repair from a connected railhead in the Baltic rail zone and only four in Russian RR zone, with a few notable exceptions around Odessa I think ATM, is the map old or am I confused?

The game measures the six hexes as the crow flies so to speak so that rail map is currently accurate. One thing it doesn't include is ideas about how to use the recently added Romanian FBD.

I do something similar to you which puts you about a week behind at Pskov, slightly ahead at Vitebsk and obviously way ahead at Minsk, reaching the city on turn six where you can choose to either head South East through Gomel for an early North South rail link or turn East towards Smolensk.

(in reply to Saulust)
Post #: 111
RE: Neogodhobo VS TheLysander AAR - 3/2/2019 1:13:48 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sammy5IsAlive


There may well be plenty here who feel that to compete you have to move panzer units down south from AGC to perform a 'conventional' Lvov pocket on T1.



100% don’t need to move your panzers south from the Center to be competitive. I would go so far to say moving Panzers/Moto from the South towards Leningrad and Moscow reaps much better rewards than the South. But I am more than likely alone in my boat but that is ok ;)

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RE: Neogodhobo VS TheLysander AAR - 3/6/2019 4:27:07 PM   
John B.


Posts: 3909
Joined: 9/25/2011
From: Virginia
Status: offline 		Thanks for all the effort you put into this AAR! I have never played the game so I just lurk and read AARs but you put a lot of effort into your game and it shows. Don't get too down about not winning in your first game as the Germans. I look forward to your next AAR.

(in reply to HardLuckYetAgain)
Post #: 113
RE: Neogodhobo VS TheLysander AAR - 3/6/2019 5:56:05 PM   
Neogodhobo


Posts: 502
Joined: 8/17/2017
Status: offline 		The only thing Im down about is that I couldnt continue the game any longer, not winning was expected, but if I could have at least given a good show and fight until 1945, it would have been great. Il keep pushing for a complete game and see what it gives one day.

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Post #: 114
RE: Neogodhobo VS TheLysander AAR - 3/6/2019 8:17:12 PM   
John B.


Posts: 3909
Joined: 9/25/2011
From: Virginia
Status: offline 		Don't fret about it. The real Germans got to practice in Poland, France, and Yugoslavia/Greece first and even then they couldn't win (thank goodness!) :)

(in reply to Neogodhobo)
Post #: 115
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