Help cracking max level entrenchments in Iron Man

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Help cracking max level entrenchments in Iron Man - 3/11/2019 9:16:29 PM

pbiggar

Posts: 71
Joined: 8/31/2002
From: Winnipeg, Canada
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Hi all,

I am enjoying my first go at Iron Man game on Hard settings as Allies. It is August 1944 and I have dealt with the JN Carriers with their insanely good fighter pilots (11 or 12 of their CV's are at the bottom with an equal number of CVLs), but I am really bogged down with in the Marianas with every island being max fortified - either at 6 or 9 level forts.

I can bombard an island for weeks with seemingly little effect, same with air attacks.

Armor seems to be somewhat effective in pushing the attack and I noticed my first batch of Zippo Shermans arrived today in SF. Will they make much of a difference?

Ironman scenario has made for a much more enjoyable game vs. the AI, but there must be a better way to root out the enemy than what I currently doing. Maybe I am pushing the pace to fast and I need to really micromanage the invasions better?

Any advice is appreciated - particularly about the right use of HQ's.

Thanks!

Post #: 1

RE: Help cracking max level entrenchments in Iron Man - 3/12/2019 1:40:12 AM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
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Hello fellow Winnipegger!

Can you expand a bit on what mix of units you have been using for:

- atolls
- Island size 1
- Island size 2
- Large island with no stacking limit

Have your amphib landings suffered heavy casualties? Do you know about AGCs and Amphibious FORCE HQs?

The manual explains the benefits of HQs to land units in both combat and admin situations. Is there something you need explained further?

Are enemy aircraft a factor in your Marianas invasions?

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Post #: 2

RE: Help cracking max level entrenchments in Iron Man - 3/12/2019 2:43:07 AM

rockmedic109

Posts: 2390
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: Citrus Heights, CA
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I believe I've read that port attacks will hit coast defense guns if you are loosing men and hulls to them.

Units need to be fully prepped for the target.

As BBfanboy mentioned, AGCs and Amphib Force HQ. Do not unload them.

The target needs to be prepped for the assault by bombardment and bombing. When you think you've done enough, do another month.

Start the Marianas from one end. Make sure it will have potential to build to a large airbase. Once repaired and built up, fly in the 4E bombers and lay waste to the rest of the islands.

Recon Recon Recon. Find out how many you are fighting and bring enough force. If that means 3 MARDIVs, use 4. The idea is to smash that small hungry ant with the biggest hammer you can grab. Forget finesse.

Tanks have a lot of AV for the hulls used to transport them.

Consider a major invasion to be long term process. You may loose more men than the IJA initially but this will eventually even out if you have brought enough. Once your pieces are in place, make a deliberate attack. Let your disruption and fatigue lower and attack again a couple of days later. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Combat Engineers will reduce fortifications. Added to this, continue bombing their airbase and port. They cannot rebuild fortifications if they are constantly repairing the bases.

LSTs loaded with supplies are your friends. Have a second group loaded and ready to unload.

< Message edited by rockmedic109 -- 3/12/2019 3:18:02 AM >

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 3

RE: Help cracking max level entrenchments in Iron Man - 3/12/2019 3:23:54 AM

rockmedic109

Posts: 2390
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From: Citrus Heights, CA
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Fever saps your higher brain functions. Do not plan an invasion while sick. I've got the latest round of influenza and forgot to add...�

Minesweepers in the amphibious task force.

Old Battleships and Heavy Cruisers need to be added to the amphib task force as well. They'll soak up and shrug off hits that would otherwise make later multi-divisional landings problematic due to sunken APAs.

(in reply to rockmedic109)

Post #: 4

RE: Help cracking max level entrenchments in Iron Man - 3/12/2019 3:33:04 AM

jdsrae

Posts: 2716
Joined: 3/1/2010
From: Gandangara Country
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All as above, but bring as many combat engineers as you can.
The combat engineer squads in the divisions do the same job, but the more CE squads you have the higher the chance you�ll drop the forts a notch even if you do t have 1:1 assault odds.
Keep the supply coming, use a deliberate attack then you might need to wait a week to reduce disruption and fatigue before doing another one.
Keep the naval and air bombardment going daily. Once you start getting 1:1 attacks you might be able to attack every few days
I took Iwo Jima in stock recently and had to use 3 x Marine Divs with supporting artillery and tanks and it was still a meat grinder for a month or two.
Once you capture one island in the Marianas base about 12xAKE and a bunch of AO ships to refuel your BB task forces to keep them almost continuously bombarding.

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Post #: 5

RE: Help cracking max level entrenchments in Iron Man - 3/12/2019 10:57:32 AM

GetAssista

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- Complete blockade. Supply is the key.
- Extensive bombing and bombardment to reduce supply. It helps. I do have experience
- BBs/CAs in amphib TF, to reduce CD guns effectiveness
- 100% prepped troops with both corp and command HQ landing. IDs,tanks and combat engineers preferrable
- Attack after a round of bombing and bombardment, increased disruption on defenders helps a lot
- Rest/recuperate/change battered units and repeat

Siege of the fortified island is not easy. Be thankful Marianas are not atolls.

(in reply to jdsrae)

Post #: 6

RE: Help cracking max level entrenchments in Iron Man - 3/12/2019 11:03:23 AM

Sardaukar

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From: Finland/Israel
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Problem when playing HARD level is that blockade won't work, AI never runs out of supply on HARD.

That's why I play only historical level, because realistic tactics don't apply when playing HARD or VERY HARD.

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 3/12/2019 11:04:42 AM >

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Post #: 7

RE: Help cracking max level entrenchments in Iron Man - 3/12/2019 12:19:39 PM

GetAssista

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
Problem when playing HARD level is that blockade won't work, AI never runs out of supply on HARD.

You are mixing Hard and VHard, RTFM. The former can have supply to zero with subsequent AV penalties. The latter has supply all the time.

I use this all the time in my Hard AI games

(in reply to Sardaukar)

Post #: 8

RE: Help cracking max level entrenchments in Iron Man - 3/12/2019 12:43:43 PM

HansBolter

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Am in September '45 of AndyMac's Ironman Nasty Ported to Babes, Scenario 40.

Have reduced and taken many hugely stacked level 9 fortified bases. As GetAssista states supply is always the key.

Obviously, single hex islands are the toughest as it is not easy to rotate units in and out. Rotating units in and out is almost always necessary.

When I came to the Mariana's the AI had a huge stack (something like 16 LCUs) on Siapan. I chose to take and develop every other base in the island group. In September '45 with me assaulting Kyushu, I still haven't taken Saipan, or Guadalcanal or Tulagi. By passed them all.

I have taken Singapore (26 LCUs), Hong Kong (28 LCUs) and have reduced the level 9 forts at Shanghai to level 6 (28 LCUs).

Reducing these fortresses took many months of rotating decimated combat engineers out to recover and back in to fight.
I typically rested for a week to ten days between assaults.

Prior to making any assaults I bombarded daily with artillery to force the other side to burn supply, bombed from the air to destroy supply on an almost daily basis and made seaborne bombardment raids three to five times a week.

With single hex islands, the inability to reduce supply through land unit bombardment prior to making the first assault, forces all of the supply reduction efforts to air and sea bombardment. The remoteness of the Marianas forces air bombardment to come from carriers. The lack of a close rearming base for bombardment TFs reduces the frequency of bombardment runs. These isolating factors make the Marianas an especially challenging target. This also gives perspective to the weeks of shore bombardment historically loosed upon islands in '44.

My best advice if you really, really want to reduce and take a heavily fortified island rather than bypassing it, is to bring two separate invasion forces and rotate the first one out after it gets beat up too badly. Pour on the air and sea bombardments as intensively as you are capable of. Secure lesser defended surrounding islands first and get LBA active bombing the hard target as quickly as possible.

ps.... please, please tell me you brought combat engineers to the party

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 3/12/2019 12:47:10 PM >

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Post #: 9

RE: Help cracking max level entrenchments in Iron Man - 3/12/2019 12:48:06 PM

Sardaukar

Posts: 9847
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From: Finland/Israel
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
Problem when playing HARD level is that blockade won't work, AI never runs out of supply on HARD.

You are mixing Hard and VHard, RTFM. The former can have supply to zero with subsequent AV penalties. The latter has supply all the time.

I use this all the time in my Hard AI games

Maybe you need to RTFM.

2.5.9 AI DIFFICULTY The AI Difficulty selection arrows allow the player to extend an advantage to the computer opponent. The options are: � Easy � Human player is given some advantages. � Historical (default) � Play is balanced with no advantages given to either side. � Hard � Computer is given some logistical advantages. � Very Hard � Computer is given some logistical and combat advantages.

You should not insult veterans with your superior knowledge before having your facts right.

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 3/12/2019 12:56:55 PM >

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von B�lov, 1870-

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Post #: 10

RE: Help cracking max level entrenchments in Iron Man - 3/12/2019 1:26:34 PM

Kull

Posts: 2625
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From: El Paso, TX
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Here's what we "know" about AI Supply and difficulty levels:

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

The Devs have never said exactly and pretty sure they never will.

What has been said is that on HARD, the AI gets some supply bonuses. What exactly they are isn't clear.

The AI will always build everything, even when out of supply. I think it is one of its issues that requires it to be given extra supply. It just doesn't seem to know not to build.

I also know that I have to move my games up to VH difficulty a few days/month to help the AI. VH improves supply more and seems to increase morale/fatigue recovery. We also know that on VH there are some combat modfiers. Exactly what, we have not been told.

That's about it. If you are playing a stock type scenario, like dbb Lite, you need to play on HARD and ramp it up to VH for at least 3 - 5 days/month. Even then, you are only going to get 6 - 9 months of a good game out of it unless you are really careful. More likely, the AI will suffer a serious shipping loss (several capital ships) from which it can't recover. This is why the Ironman series works so much better as an AI opponent. The AI gets Easter Eggs that allow it to recover from a mistake.

The exact benefits are unknown, but it's very important to know that you - the player - can alter these effects during your game. As Pax has noted many times (including the above), the player can change the difficulty level DURING a campaign. So by all means play against the AI on Hard or VH, but if you are attacking a difficult fortified position, you DO have the option to reload the game at "normal" and play that way for as many turns as necessary. Thus it's not a fixed situation where you are locked in to the choices made at the start of the campaign. Frankly, the devs don't get near enough credit for providing us with a game in which difficulty levels can be altered on the fly.

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Post #: 11

RE: Help cracking max level entrenchments in Iron Man - 3/12/2019 2:39:09 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

Here's what we "know" about AI Supply and difficulty levels:

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

The Devs have never said exactly and pretty sure they never will.

What has been said is that on HARD, the AI gets some supply bonuses. What exactly they are isn't clear.

The AI will always build everything, even when out of supply. I think it is one of its issues that requires it to be given extra supply. It just doesn't seem to know not to build.

I also know that I have to move my games up to VH difficulty a few days/month to help the AI. VH improves supply more and seems to increase morale/fatigue recovery. We also know that on VH there are some combat modfiers. Exactly what, we have not been told.

That's about it. If you are playing a stock type scenario, like dbb Lite, you need to play on HARD and ramp it up to VH for at least 3 - 5 days/month. Even then, you are only going to get 6 - 9 months of a good game out of it unless you are really careful. More likely, the AI will suffer a serious shipping loss (several capital ships) from which it can't recover. This is why the Ironman series works so much better as an AI opponent. The AI gets Easter Eggs that allow it to recover from a mistake.

The exact benefits are unknown, but it's very important to know that you - the player - can alter these effects during your game. As Pax has noted many times (including the above), the player can change the difficulty level DURING a campaign. So by all means play against the AI on Hard or VH, but if you are attacking a difficult fortified position, you DO have the option to reload the game at "normal" and play that way for as many turns as necessary. Thus it's not a fixed situation where you are locked in to the choices made at the start of the campaign. Frankly, the devs don't get near enough credit for providing us with a game in which difficulty levels can be altered on the fly.

I do this consistently. I don't want to wade into the dispute as I don't have a definitive answer, but anytime I start attempting to attrite supply at a heavily fortified base I reset to normal (historical) to ensure the AI will actually lose the supplies I am seeking to destroy.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 3/12/2019 2:42:23 PM >

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Post #: 12

RE: Help cracking max level entrenchments in Iron Man - 3/12/2019 3:17:47 PM

GetAssista

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
Maybe you need to RTFM.

2.5.9 AI DIFFICULTY The AI Difficulty selection arrows allow the player to extend an advantage to the computer opponent. The options are: � Easy � Human player is given some advantages. � Historical (default) � Play is balanced with no advantages given to either side. � Hard � Computer is given some logistical advantages. � Very Hard � Computer is given some logistical and combat advantages.

You should not insult veterans with your superior knowledge before having your facts right.

Sorry for coming across as harsh, that was indeed uncalled for.

I do have my supply facts straight though, and you don't. This can be checked in AI game any time by saving/loading as the other side <- I did that enough hundreds of times to be sure.

Edit: manual's "logistical advantages" in the Hard setting amount to LCUs not dying from hunger with 0 supplies. In VHard setting they generate their own supply every turn

< Message edited by GetAssista -- 3/12/2019 3:24:44 PM >

(in reply to Sardaukar)

Post #: 13

RE: Help cracking max level entrenchments in Iron Man - 3/12/2019 3:21:10 PM

pbiggar

Posts: 71
Joined: 8/31/2002
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Status: offline

Wow - so many amazing responses so quickly - they are all helpful and appreciated greatly.
A couple of big take aways for me:
1) I need to go back to the manual again
2) I am using Amphib HQ's wrong - I have been unloading them
3) I need to bring more troops, including a back up group to rotate in
4) I need to bring more combat engineers
5) Stick to deliberate attacks until Forts are reduced
6) Keep Bombardments going daily with AE/AO
7) Be prepared to absorb lots and lots of casualties
8) I need to slow my expectations of pace down, plan for a month of more of assault per tough nut island

Two more final questions
1) No one commented on the effectiveness of the Zippo's that just arrived. I assume they are helpful, but would like confirmation of that.
2) What altitude to set the 4E for ground attack? I assume 9000 feet is a good level?

PS: Hello BBFanboy - We fellow Winnipegers have almost survived another winter - hopefully snow will go soon!

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 14

RE: Help cracking max level entrenchments in Iron Man - 3/12/2019 3:45:56 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pbiggar

Wow - so many amazing responses so quickly - they are all helpful and appreciated greatly.
A couple of big take aways for me:
1) I need to go back to the manual again
2) I am using Amphib HQ's wrong - I have been unloading them
3) I need to bring more troops, including a back up group to rotate in
4) I need to bring more combat engineers
5) Stick to deliberate attacks until Forts are reduced
6) Keep Bombardments going daily with AE/AO
7) Be prepared to absorb lots and lots of casualties
8) I need to slow my expectations of pace down, plan for a month of more of assault per tough nut island

Two more final questions
1) No one commented on the effectiveness of the Zippo's that just arrived. I assume they are helpful, but would like confirmation of that.
2) What altitude to set the 4E for ground attack? I assume 9000 feet is a good level?

PS: Hello BBFanboy - We fellow Winnipegers have almost survived another winter - hopefully snow will go soon!

Looks like others have anticipated some of your difficulties and set out advice you can use. I was unsure whether you already knew a lot of that stuff so I wanted more specifics on your difficulties so advice could be focused better.

About the Amphib HQs - you must distinguish between Amphibious Corps HQ (a corps HQ that must land with troops to give land combat support) and the rare Amphibious Force HQ which is there to coordinate off-loading and landing movements between the invasion TF and shore. This is a naval coordination function so the Amphib Force HQ stays on a ship. It is most effective when on an AGC command ship which has extra radios and command plotting rooms. With the bonuses it gives the troops will land with less disruption and fatigue and unloading will proceed faster with fewer devices dropped in the water.

EDIT: PS - before giving the TF orders to unload, put the AGC (or other ship that has the Amphib Force HQ) and a couple of DEs/DDs in a separate TF set to "do not unload". This TF should be set to Remain on Station or Patrol in the landing hex.

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 3/12/2019 3:50:21 PM >

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Post #: 15

RE: Help cracking max level entrenchments in Iron Man - 3/12/2019 4:46:58 PM

HansBolter

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I have had a couple of zippo tank battalions for a while now.

Can't say they are more or less effective than a normal tank battalion as I have tended to group them with 2-3 normal tank battalions in any given assault they have participated in.

Bombing altitude settings are all about flak. I typically try 4Es at 9k and then again at 6k.

If I lose too may at 6k, I go back up to 9k.

With 2Es I bomb at 6k unless flak is non-existent, then I go in at 3k.

Experiment until you find your comfort zone.

ps...be wary of using combat engineer battalions in a large siege. In large sieges small units tend to get decimated. At Hong Kong I used several CE battalions and one regiment and I think I also used some Aussie CEs that were only companies. I had to buy the Aussie companies back from the dead and the battalions were so decimated they had to withdraw to Canton to recover and take replacements before moving back to Hong Kong. CE regiments hold up way better in large siege battles.

That small units tend to get decimated in large siege battles is a rule of thumb to take note of. Never break a division down into regiments to participate in a siege if you have a choice.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 3/12/2019 4:53:56 PM >

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RE: Help cracking max level entrenchments in Iron Man - 3/12/2019 5:42:34 PM

RangerJoe

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quote:

. . . Never break a division down into regiments to participate in a siege if you have a choice.

Except that sometimes large units like divisions do not build forts above level 2. If you break them down they will. However in saying so, recombine them at fort level 3 and before any attack is made.

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Post #: 17

RE: Help cracking max level entrenchments in Iron Man - 3/13/2019 5:27:45 AM

Sardaukar

Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
Maybe you need to RTFM.

2.5.9 AI DIFFICULTY The AI Difficulty selection arrows allow the player to extend an advantage to the computer opponent. The options are: � Easy � Human player is given some advantages. � Historical (default) � Play is balanced with no advantages given to either side. � Hard � Computer is given some logistical advantages. � Very Hard � Computer is given some logistical and combat advantages.

You should not insult veterans with your superior knowledge before having your facts right.

Sorry for coming across as harsh, that was indeed uncalled for.

I do have my supply facts straight though, and you don't. This can be checked in AI game any time by saving/loading as the other side <- I did that enough hundreds of times to be sure.

Edit: manual's "logistical advantages" in the Hard setting amount to LCUs not dying from hunger with 0 supplies. In VHard setting they generate their own supply every turn

No hard feelings.

And as said, one can adjust settings when playing AI. Computer does not have feelings.

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 3/13/2019 5:28:40 AM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to GetAssista)

Post #: 18

RE: Help cracking max level entrenchments in Iron Man - 3/13/2019 1:09:59 PM

pbiggar

Posts: 71
Joined: 8/31/2002
From: Winnipeg, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
Maybe you need to RTFM.

2.5.9 AI DIFFICULTY The AI Difficulty selection arrows allow the player to extend an advantage to the computer opponent. The options are: � Easy � Human player is given some advantages. � Historical (default) � Play is balanced with no advantages given to either side. � Hard � Computer is given some logistical advantages. � Very Hard � Computer is given some logistical and combat advantages.

You should not insult veterans with your superior knowledge before having your facts right.

Sorry for coming across as harsh, that was indeed uncalled for.

I do have my supply facts straight though, and you don't. This can be checked in AI game any time by saving/loading as the other side <- I did that enough hundreds of times to be sure.

Edit: manual's "logistical advantages" in the Hard setting amount to LCUs not dying from hunger with 0 supplies. In VHard setting they generate their own supply every turn

No hard feelings.

And as said, one can adjust settings when playing AI. Computer does not have feelings.

Ok you have convinced me to try a couple of turns on �Normal� and see if the 0 supply Japanese bases start to lose AV. The isolation strategy is not a good one if the Japanese supply goes to 0 but they suffer no additional effects beyond not receiving replacements.

(in reply to Sardaukar)

Post #: 19

RE: Help cracking max level entrenchments in Iron Man - 3/13/2019 10:58:24 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: pbiggar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
Maybe you need to RTFM.

2.5.9 AI DIFFICULTY The AI Difficulty selection arrows allow the player to extend an advantage to the computer opponent. The options are: � Easy � Human player is given some advantages. � Historical (default) � Play is balanced with no advantages given to either side. � Hard � Computer is given some logistical advantages. � Very Hard � Computer is given some logistical and combat advantages.

You should not insult veterans with your superior knowledge before having your facts right.

Sorry for coming across as harsh, that was indeed uncalled for.

I do have my supply facts straight though, and you don't. This can be checked in AI game any time by saving/loading as the other side <- I did that enough hundreds of times to be sure.

Edit: manual's "logistical advantages" in the Hard setting amount to LCUs not dying from hunger with 0 supplies. In VHard setting they generate their own supply every turn

No hard feelings.

And as said, one can adjust settings when playing AI. Computer does not have feelings.

Ok you have convinced me to try a couple of turns on �Normal� and see if the 0 supply Japanese bases start to lose AV. The isolation strategy is not a good one if the Japanese supply goes to 0 but they suffer no additional effects beyond not receiving replacements.

Don't expect instant results. Once the base runs out of supply the units still have their own internal supply to use up. It takes a while to hit 0, and disablements after that recover extremely slowly, but you need something to create the disablements. A base that has less than 9 points of development (port + airfield) and in the malaria zone will have malaria effects that disable some of the troops.

Be aware of the progression of deterioration of troop effectiveness:
- fatigue is followed by morale loss and disruption
-disruption is followed by disablement
-disablement is followed by destruction
- at 0 supply, a unit fights at 25% of its raw AV.
The progression of deterioration means that once you start out to reduce troops by bombardment or bombing or occasional ground combat, it is best to keep the pressure on. At first it may seem not much is happening but when the unit gets over 50% disabled the destruction of squads accelerates quickly.

_____________________________

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(in reply to pbiggar)

Post #: 20

RE: Help cracking max level entrenchments in Iron Man - 3/14/2019 1:46:43 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

The progression of deterioration means that once you start out to reduce troops by bombardment or bombing or occasional ground combat, it is best to keep the pressure on. At first it may seem not much is happening but when the unit gets over 50% disabled the destruction of squads accelerates quickly.

This point is paramount to keep in mind when daily LCU bombardments don't seem to be doing much visible damage.
I have seen newbies lament many times how 'useless' land bombardment seems to be.

What is most important with LCU bombardment is what is happening behind the curtain, ie...effects not reported in combat reports.
Combat reports tell us how many casualties the other side suffered (with a very heavy dose of FOW).
What combat reports don't tell us is the effect on these important factors:

Morale
Fatigue
Disruption
Supply

Daily LCU bombardments force the other side to expend supply counterbombarding, keep morale suppressed, keep fatigue from being reduced and keep disruption from being recovered.

All of these are very important factors leading up to that tipping point when the defense will eventually collapse.

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Post #: 21