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RE: New manual - 2/17/2019 11:03:52 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline 		v2.5 with a few minor changes/corrections. Note some section numbers have changed (sections 7 and 16) to what I think makes more sense. Index is still a work in progress. See first post for link.


(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 91
RE: New manual - 2/17/2019 12:59:37 PM   
xhoel


Posts: 3219
Joined: 6/24/2017
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Thanks Chris, keep up the splendid work!

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(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 92
RE: New manual - 2/18/2019 12:56:26 PM   
wkuh

 

Posts: 81
Joined: 5/16/2017
Status: offline 		Ditto xhoel's remark.

(in reply to xhoel)
Post #: 93
RE: New manual - 2/19/2019 9:50:37 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline 		v2.5.1 with a minor changes/corrections to airdrop and airhead supply. What was written was contradictory. See first post for link.


(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 94
RE: New manual - 3/21/2019 8:04:51 AM   
MattFL

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 2/27/2010
Status: offline 		Holy **** Chris, THANK YOU. Was pulling my hair out with my 2013 manual...…………….

(in reply to Mac Linehan)
Post #: 95
RE: New manual - 3/25/2019 4:57:35 PM   
simast

 

Posts: 6
Joined: 2/22/2019
Status: offline 		In at least two places the manual states:

quote:

8.1.5. ... Withdrawing air groups will not upgrade or swap aircraft automatically although manual change is still allowed.
18.2.2.2. ... Withdrawing air groups will not upgrade or swap aircraft automatically (manual change is
still allowed).

This seems to be incorrect - as in my game Stab/JG 27 (scheduled to withdraw in 11 turns) just upgraded from Bf 109E-7 to Bf 109F-4 on auto.

< Message edited by simast -- 3/25/2019 5:01:21 PM >

(in reply to MattFL)
Post #: 96
RE: New manual - 3/25/2019 11:44:48 PM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 7902
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: offline 		Land units have a withdrawing mode 5 turns prior to sheduled withdrawal and so do the air groups.
Once they entered this withdrawing mode they are blocked from auto-swaps and -upgrades

(in reply to simast)
Post #: 97
RE: New manual - 3/28/2019 5:34:47 PM   
MattFL

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 2/27/2010
Status: offline 		Hi, Chris,

Thanks again for updating manual, really helpful for me after being away so long.

I’m not sure if you track changes for future release (or even if any further updates are planned), but I’d like to suggest that you delete the first sentence of 7.6. It causes confusion about units getting a Morale bonus for being attached to Soviet Shock Armies which, as i understand it, is not the case and not listed in 9.1.4 as one of the bonuses to national morale. Removing the first sentence elminates the reference to this non-existent morale bonus.

Edit: Alternatively, and perhaps preferably, just change first sentence to “Elite units receive a bonus over the current national morale (see 9.1.4)” . This removes the part about non-elite and shock army blah blah.

Thanks again!

< Message edited by MattFL -- 3/28/2019 5:39:53 PM >

(in reply to Denniss)
Post #: 98
RE: New manual - 3/29/2019 8:30:24 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline 		v2.5.2 with minor changes/corrections to Elite units morale and admin bonuses. What was written was contradictory. See first post for link.

(in reply to MattFL)
Post #: 99
RE: New manual - 3/29/2019 9:01:26 AM   
56ajax


Posts: 1950
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen

v2.5.2 with minor changes/corrections to Elite units morale and admin bonuses. What was written was contradictory. See first post for link.


Thanks.



_____________________________

Molotov : This we did not deserve.

Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.

C'est la guerre aérienne

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 100
RE: New manual - 4/15/2019 10:23:52 PM   
AFV


Posts: 435
Joined: 12/24/2011
From: Dallas, Texas
Status: offline 		Hey Chris
First off, great work. Anyone just taking on this monster deserves kudos- and then doing a great job of it on top of that- extraordinary!

Anyways
Under 9.1.1, the 6th bullet point reads
• Units that are below 40 automatically gain one morale point.

However, that does not appear to be true, at least for the Soviet player on turn 1 (results seen on start of turn 2), per a test game of mine.

One other comment- the first two bullet points read for units below 50 morale- and you get the impression that you are just as likely to gain a morale point if you are sitting at 40 morale vs 48 morale- however in practice, (for example) there does appear to be some kind of die roll that makes you much more likely to gain from 40 to 41, than from 48 to 49. I know that is sorta insinuated there is a die roll involved with the "can" part of the statement- but it is a bit misleading. Unless I am mistaken and it really is just as likely, certainly could be.


(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 101
RE: New manual - 4/16/2019 1:27:12 AM   
56ajax


Posts: 1950
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AFV

Hey Chris
First off, great work. Anyone just taking on this monster deserves kudos- and then doing a great job of it on top of that- extraordinary!

Anyways
Under 9.1.1, the 6th bullet point reads
• Units that are below 40 automatically gain one morale point.

However, that does not appear to be true, at least for the Soviet player on turn 1 (results seen on start of turn 2), per a test game of mine.





Agree. Demonstrably incorrect. I checked a unit that hadn't moved in the game, 8 hexes from the enemy, on rail in full supply, with Morale of 37. Next turn it dropped to 36.!!!!!

Perhaps the 1 point increase in morale is added at the start of Set Morale process and not to the final calculated result.

< Message edited by 56ajax -- 4/16/2019 1:28:48 AM >

_____________________________

Molotov : This we did not deserve.

Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.

C'est la guerre aérienne

(in reply to AFV)
Post #: 102
RE: New manual - 4/16/2019 6:53:53 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AFV

Hey Chris
First off, great work. Anyone just taking on this monster deserves kudos- and then doing a great job of it on top of that- extraordinary!

Anyways
Under 9.1.1, the 6th bullet point reads
• Units that are below 40 automatically gain one morale point.

However, that does not appear to be true, at least for the Soviet player on turn 1 (results seen on start of turn 2), per a test game of mine.

One other comment- the first two bullet points read for units below 50 morale- and you get the impression that you are just as likely to gain a morale point if you are sitting at 40 morale vs 48 morale- however in practice, (for example) there does appear to be some kind of die roll that makes you much more likely to gain from 40 to 41, than from 48 to 49. I know that is sorta insinuated there is a die roll involved with the "can" part of the statement- but it is a bit misleading. Unless I am mistaken and it really is just as likely, certainly could be.




This particlar bullet came from patch v1.07.10 - August 12, 2013. New Features and Rule Changes No 6.

There's no logistic phase on the first turn for the player going first so this should have no effect on the numbers you see but I suppose it is possible.

And there's this regarding new units and relacements. I suspect his this the culprit.

9.1.5. Morale of New Units
The build morale of newly built units and replacements is randomly determined between 50% and 75% (rounding up) of current
national morale with the following exceptions of newly created Soviet Ski units which receive a morale bonus over the current national
morale based on the date as follows: +5 in Sept 42, +10 in Sept 43, and +15 in Sept 44.


I've no reason to doubt any of this isn't correct so if this isn't the reason I suspect there might be other non obvious factors at play here that reduce morale, particularly on the first turn.

< Message edited by Chris21wen -- 4/16/2019 6:55:02 AM >

(in reply to AFV)
Post #: 103
RE: New manual - 4/16/2019 8:23:56 AM   
56ajax


Posts: 1950
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline 		My test was to play Human vs Human, just keep on hitting end turn until I arrived at week 8 and 9 and checked some Soviet units.

This defect, if thats what it is, would explain (sort of) why some units never have an increase in morale.

_____________________________

Molotov : This we did not deserve.

Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.

C'est la guerre aérienne

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 104
RE: New manual - 4/16/2019 8:41:40 AM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 2038
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline 		Lack of supply can hit morale. You should have a look if that was the case for the 37->36

Morale only grows to NM level for each unit. The 40/50 thresholds are not active anymore.

From what I know

_____________________________

The Library of Gary Grigsby's War in the East resources.
Do you want total war? Guide for WitE players

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 105
RE: New manual - 4/16/2019 8:43:39 AM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 2038
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline 		For details see this post: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4601993

_____________________________

The Library of Gary Grigsby's War in the East resources.
Do you want total war? Guide for WitE players

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 106
RE: New manual - 4/16/2019 10:06:59 AM   
56ajax


Posts: 1950
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EwaldvonKleist

Lack of supply can hit morale. You should have a look if that was the case for the 37->36

Morale only grows to NM level for each unit. The 40/50 thresholds are not active anymore.

From what I know


Unit was on a Sov rail within 5 hexes of HQ with supply at 99-100%.

However Axis units were under 10 hexes away, so I moved the unit beyond 10 hexes, hit end turn, end turn, and morale went up by 3 points to 40, not on refit.

So to improve morale get your unit beyond 10 hexes.

_____________________________

Molotov : This we did not deserve.

Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.

C'est la guerre aérienne

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 107
RE: New manual - 5/8/2019 11:06:37 AM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		According to post 26 here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4628122 there was an error in the old manual that has never been corrected. Has the new manual included this, or is it worth including?

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 108
RE: New manual - 5/9/2019 6:19:27 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

According to post 26 here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4628122 there was an error in the old manual that has never been corrected. Has the new manual included this, or is it worth including?


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

I think manual was never correct. The chance to get bonus +1 to admin rolls was always (number of support squads in hq / 1000), and I didn't invent that.


So this sentence can go from 11.3.1 then.

'Approximately one admin point is subtracted from the leader's admin rating for every ten percent the HQ unit is below its TOE support squad strength, with a max reduction of five points.'

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 109
RE: New manual - 5/9/2019 8:26:51 AM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

According to post 26 here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4628122 there was an error in the old manual that has never been corrected. Has the new manual included this, or is it worth including?


quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

I think manual was never correct. The chance to get bonus +1 to admin rolls was always (number of support squads in hq / 1000), and I didn't invent that.


So this sentence can go from 11.3.1 then.

'Approximately one admin point is subtracted from the leader's admin rating for every ten percent the HQ unit is below its TOE support squad strength, with a max reduction of five points.'


Yes the sentence will need to go - but something else needs to replace it. My own knowledge of the rule is

"There is a penalty that reduces admin ratings continuously as it has fewer of the support squads in the HQ than it should have."

That is my best understanding at the moment. Hopefully someone else can provide more detail than I can as the formula is still ambiguous to me?

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 5/9/2019 8:27:28 AM >

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 110
RE: New manual - 5/9/2019 12:03:53 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		Correction - I think Morvael has given the definitive answer in http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4628122

There is absolutely no penalty to admin rolls ever due to lack of support squads. So that sentence can be supplied. There is just the +1 bonus as described there which needs to be included if it is not.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 5/9/2019 12:04:16 PM >

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 111
RE: New manual - 5/10/2019 7:17:33 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline 		Correction to Section 11.3.1 specifically on the Leader Admin Bonus.

11.3.1. Leader Rating Check Procedure

Each leader rating check is essentially the computer generating a Random(x) value where if the result is less than the leader rating then the check is passed, but if the result is greater than the rating, the check fails. Leaders of headquarters units where the number of attached units exceeds the command capacity (7.7.2) will have their chances of making the leader rating check reduced with the more excess units, the less the chance of a successful check.

In addition, there’s a chance to get a +1 bonus to leader admin checks based on the number of support squads in his HQ unit divided by 1000. So top-level HQ with 1000 squads should always pass this test and grant this bonus. A corps with 250 squads has only 25% chance to grant this bonus, and so on. Reducing support squads linearly lowers your chance to pass that test, so even one squad less results in a lower chance to get this bonus.

Link in first post.

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 112
RE: New manual - 5/10/2019 7:25:45 AM   
morvael


Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Chris21wen, here are details of leader rolls:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3761599

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 113
RE: New manual - 5/11/2019 5:32:19 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
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From: Cottesmore, Rutland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

Chris21wen, here are details of leader rolls:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3761599


I'll incorporate this into manual.

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 114
RE: New manual - 5/11/2019 9:06:23 AM   
Jericoh

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 5/10/2019
Status: offline 		Many thanks for this updated manual!

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 115
RE: New manual - 5/11/2019 12:07:55 PM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline 		morvael, I've just read the manual in relation to how chain of command checks work and the manual gives the impression that only corps have a random(10) chance, while armies have a (20) chance etc. This is not correct is it? The (10) chance applies to immediate HQ, typically army for the Soviets.

The Command Range Modifier when applicable does apply though.

(in reply to morvael)
Post #: 116
RE: New manual - 5/11/2019 12:30:58 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen
morvael, I've just read the manual in relation to how chain of command checks work and the manual gives the impression that only corps have a random(10) chance, while armies have a (20) chance etc. This is not correct is it? The (10) chance applies to immediate HQ, typically army for the Soviets.
The Command Range Modifier when applicable does apply though.


This is a problem throughout the old manual - corps has to usually read as meaning "the first level of command" whenever you are talking about these chains of command effects. The first level of command is typically corps for Axis and army for Soviet, but indeed could even be armygroup/front or high command. Going through and replacing terms with the words "1st level HQ" "2nd level HQ" etc would certainly make the concepts clearer for new players.

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 117
RE: New manual - 5/11/2019 12:44:28 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		Also do you know about the last chance rolls etc? They were not documented in the manual or change notes but have been described since.

quote:


There are actually two "last chance" rolls possible, one (Die(100)<50+difficulty level-99) for
support units attached to cities and airbase units not attached to air HQs, and one
(Die(100)<difficulty level-99) for all units. This means that on default difficulty level of 100, the
first roll has a 50% chance of success, while the second 0%, and this goes smoothly by 1% up and
down depending on difficulty levels. For all rolls other than administrative roll, side's morale level is
used and for administrative roll, side's logistics level is used to determine bonus. In the previous
version of the game there was no equivalent of first roll, and the equivalent of the second one
varied from roll to roll: morale roll succeeded when Die(60)<side's morale level-100 (so it was
1.6% for each level after 101), all initiative rolls succeeded when side's morale level was greater
than 100, all admin rolls succeeded when side's logistics level was greater than 100, and other rolls
had no chance to succeed if the regular rolls failed. The new method is consistent and offers
smooth scaling of difficulty instead of kicking with full effect on level 101. Also the first roll in new
method is a "life saver" for units that are out of proper command chain, and 50% chance seemed
best choice.


There were quite a few of these extras to ratings checks that are only documented in forum posts. So if only working from manuals and change notes these might not have been picked up?

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 5/11/2019 12:49:12 PM >

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 118
RE: New manual - 5/12/2019 5:09:24 AM   
56ajax


Posts: 1950
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline 		I assume this sentence in 11.2.4 is now redundant?

Admin checks are specifically affected by the actual number of support squad ground elements in the leader's HQ unit as compared to the HQ unit TOE (11.3.1).

_____________________________

Molotov : This we did not deserve.

Foch : This is not peace. This is a 20 year armistice.

C'est la guerre aérienne

(in reply to Telemecus)
Post #: 119
RE: New manual - 5/12/2019 6:41:07 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6249
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax

I assume this sentence in 11.2.4 is now redundant?

Admin checks are specifically affected by the actual number of support squad ground elements in the leader's HQ unit as compared to the HQ unit TOE (11.3.1).


No, there's still a Admin check all-be-it not the same as before.

(in reply to 56ajax)
Post #: 120
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