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OT: 78 years ago to this day - Bismarck scuttled

 
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OT: 78 years ago to this day - Bismarck scuttled - 5/27/2019 4:14:15 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		... or sunk, depending on your POV.

Anyway, I almost missed the date but for stumbling by pure accident on a new song by the Swedish power metal band Sabaton: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVWEb-At8yc

One of the viewer comments made me laugh so hard I have to share it: "Sabaton is more historically accurate than the History Channel"

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Post #: 1
RE: OT: 78 years ago to this day - Bismarck scuttled - 5/27/2019 4:20:37 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		Lots of lives, lots of steel lost for very little

I can only think Shinano as a worst investment

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 2
RE: OT: 78 years ago to this day - Bismarck scuttled - 5/27/2019 5:16:38 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline 		The ROI on German BCs/BBs was poor. The resources would have been better spent on air or ground forces or submarines.

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
Post #: 3
RE: OT: 78 years ago to this day - Bismarck scuttled - 5/27/2019 6:21:25 PM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 7902
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: offline 		RoI for the PoW (who fought Bismarck with Hood) was no better and she had a similar fate with a lucky torp hit inflicting fatal damage, dooming her.
Bismarck, the pride of the german navy, sank the Hood, the pride of the Royal Navy, just to sink some days after.
Scharnhorst/Gneisenau sank multiple ships including a Fleet carrier. They could have (and should have) repaired Gneisenau instead of stopping all work so Scharnhorst was alone in her last fight.
Don't underestimate the Fleet-in-Being effect of the large german ships, causing the royal navy to keep large forces in the area of their operations.

(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 4
RE: OT: 78 years ago to this day - Bismarck scuttled - 5/27/2019 6:48:22 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		[casts lure upon the calm waters]

Since Bismarck was scuttled, the British lost all honour [sic] / credit for the sinking of the German battleship.

[twitches rod tip slightly]

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Post #: 5
RE: OT: 78 years ago to this day - Bismarck scuttled - 5/27/2019 7:04:39 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Denniss

RoI for the PoW (who fought Bismarck with Hood) was no better and she had a similar fate with a lucky torp hit inflicting fatal damage, dooming her.
Bismarck, the pride of the german navy, sank the Hood, the pride of the Royal Navy, just to sink some days after.
Scharnhorst/Gneisenau sank multiple ships including a Fleet carrier. They could have (and should have) repaired Gneisenau instead of stopping all work so Scharnhorst was alone in her last fight.
Don't underestimate the Fleet-in-Being effect of the large german ships, causing the royal navy to keep large forces in the area of their operations.

The German capital ships did have some successes, but not in proportion to the resources expended. It takes a vast amount of skilled labor and high tensile steel to build a capital ship. They could have had a lot of tanks/artillery/whatever instead. Hitler's decision to build a large surface fleet assumed war wouldn't happen until 1946.

The British would probably have built about the same number of capital ships even if the Germans hadn't built any (lower priority, slower construction). True, they could have sent more of them to the Far East, but how much would they really have influenced the war? Would it have mattered if Force Z had 4 BBs/BCs instead of 2? The Germans got a better return on their surface raiders and pocket battleships. Their CAs were not as good for commerce raiding because of short range/unreliable engines.

Likewise, the US got very little out of the 6 'large cruisers' they laid down (only 2 were completed). They took a long time to build because completely new 12" turrets had to be designed from scratch, built, and tested, and then the rest of the ship built around them.

(in reply to Denniss)
Post #: 6
RE: OT: 78 years ago to this day - Bismarck scuttled - 5/27/2019 7:24:06 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
[casts lure upon the calm waters]

Since Bismarck was scuttled, the British lost all honour [sic] / credit for the sinking of the German battleship.

[twitches rod tip slightly]

Well, they sure lost 10% VPs

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 7
RE: OT: 78 years ago to this day - Bismarck scuttled - 5/27/2019 7:25:49 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		That is a little different than the Johnny Horton version of the battle.

But they did a very good job of it.

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Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 8
RE: OT: 78 years ago to this day - Bismarck scuttled - 5/29/2019 8:12:07 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

[casts lure upon the calm waters]

Since Bismarck was scuttled, the British lost all honour [sic] / credit for the sinking of the German battleship.

[twitches rod tip slightly]








_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 9
RE: OT: 78 years ago to this day - Bismarck scuttled - 5/29/2019 9:28:43 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

[casts lure upon the calm waters]

Since Bismarck was scuttled, the British lost all honour [sic] / credit for the sinking of the German battleship.

[twitches rod tip slightly]








Both the British and the Germans had a role in sinking Bismarck! [CBs lure snags on a sunken wreck, he pulls hard and breaks his rod tip!]




Attachment (1)

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 10
RE: OT: 78 years ago to this day - Bismarck scuttled - 5/29/2019 9:55:13 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

[casts lure upon the calm waters]

Since Bismarck was scuttled, the British lost all honour [sic] / credit for the sinking of the German battleship.

[twitches rod tip slightly]








Both the British and the Germans had a role in sinking Bismarck! [CBs lure snags on a sunken wreck, he pulls hard and breaks his rod tip!]




My rod tip has gotten stuck before. It's not pretty.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 11
RE: OT: 78 years ago to this day - Bismarck scuttled - 5/30/2019 10:25:45 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		Forgot to add - the Sabaton video must be accurate, it shows that Admiral Lütjens did NOT die in repose and had his ceremonial golden watch taken from him.

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AE Mod "Bottlenecks" UPDATED 01/2022

(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 12
RE: OT: 78 years ago to this day - Bismarck scuttled - 5/30/2019 10:29:43 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		and lets not forget that HMS Hood sank quicker; after only 3 minutes of being hit;

this 1st fight was clean, non controversial victory that demonstrated German efficiency






< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 5/30/2019 10:33:20 AM >

(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 13
RE: OT: 78 years ago to this day - Bismarck scuttled - 5/30/2019 1:59:34 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		I heard the Meyer Werft shipyard in Germany builds quite good cruisers.

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
Post #: 14
RE: OT: 78 years ago to this day - Bismarck scuttled - 5/30/2019 4:46:20 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

and lets not forget that HMS Hood sank quicker; after only 3 minutes of being hit;

this 1st fight was clean, non controversial victory that demonstrated German efficiency






Yes! Yes! That's the spirit!

_____________________________


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Post #: 15
RE: OT: 78 years ago to this day - Bismarck scuttled - 5/30/2019 5:57:31 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

demonstrated German efficiency


IRL this was rather untrue. German production during the war was for the most part anything but.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 16
RE: OT: 78 years ago to this day - Bismarck scuttled - 5/30/2019 8:27:56 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

demonstrated German efficiency


IRL this was rather untrue. German production during the war was for the most part anything but.


Except for their Tiger tank production. Clearly superior to Sherman tank production.

















_____________________________


(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 17
RE: OT: 78 years ago to this day - Bismarck scuttled - 5/30/2019 9:20:19 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

demonstrated German efficiency

IRL this was rather untrue. German production during the war was for the most part anything but.

Except for their Tiger tank production. Clearly superior to Sherman tank production.


Incorrect. The US produced a lot more Shermans than Germany produced Tigers.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 18
RE: OT: 78 years ago to this day - Bismarck scuttled - 5/30/2019 9:22:12 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

and lets not forget that HMS Hood sank quicker; after only 3 minutes of being hit;

this 1st fight was clean, non controversial victory that demonstrated German efficiency




It showed a brand spanking new German battleship with a crack crew could sink a 20 year old un-modernized battlecruiser with thin deck armor.

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
Post #: 19
RE: OT: 78 years ago to this day - Bismarck scuttled - 5/31/2019 2:49:09 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

demonstrated German efficiency

IRL this was rather untrue. German production during the war was for the most part anything but.

Except for their Tiger tank production. Clearly superior to Sherman tank production.


Incorrect. The US produced a lot more Shermans than Germany produced Tigers.


He was being facetious Although, with CB, it is hard to tell



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If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 20
RE: OT: 78 years ago to this day - Bismarck scuttled - 5/31/2019 5:09:11 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

demonstrated German efficiency

IRL this was rather untrue. German production during the war was for the most part anything but.

Except for their Tiger tank production. Clearly superior to Sherman tank production.


Incorrect. The US produced a lot more Shermans than Germany produced Tigers.


He was being facetious Although, with CB, it is hard to tell


Did you mean feces-ious?





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Lecivius)
Post #: 21
RE: OT: 78 years ago to this day - Bismarck scuttled - 5/31/2019 5:23:18 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lecivius


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

demonstrated German efficiency

IRL this was rather untrue. German production during the war was for the most part anything but.

Except for their Tiger tank production. Clearly superior to Sherman tank production.


Incorrect. The US produced a lot more Shermans than Germany produced Tigers.


He was being facetious Although, with CB, it is hard to tell


Did you mean feces-ious?






With CB, anything is possible

_____________________________

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 22
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