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RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE?

 
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RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/3/2019 3:00:47 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		What it would take is for a prodigy or prodigies to announce: "We've formed Cucumber Designs. We're associated with Henderson Fields/Matrix to produce WitP:AE II, a complete rewrite of the code inspired by the various elements of the game (air/sea/ground war on a great scale) that we love but that has grown long in the tooth from a graphic design/interface standpoint."

If that happened, the interest would be high and a Kickstarter would probably succeed.

I wouldn't be surprised to read such an announcement here someday (but probably not soon) or for some prodigy team working for the sheer love of WWII in the Pacific to do it independently. It's going to happen someday.

(in reply to Fishbed)
Post #: 121
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/3/2019 4:45:52 PM   
Fishbed

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline 		Well, I for one wouldn't be surprised either by the topic, but there would be much surprise still if they eventually actually chose to call themselves Cucumber Designs. Best name hands down, though.

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Post #: 122
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/3/2019 7:31:53 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

Well, I for one wouldn't be surprised either by the topic, but there would be much surprise still if they eventually actually chose to call themselves Cucumber Designs. Best name hands down, though.

Well, we wanted a cool name, right?




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Post #: 123
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/3/2019 8:54:35 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline 		Better than "the cactus Air Force bush monkey's?"

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Post #: 124
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/4/2019 12:32:09 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline 		Given that the large component of any product update in software is the testing, it might be productive to demonstrate that a significant portion of the AE community is willing to participate by testing any future update.


(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 125
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/4/2019 7:01:11 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Given that the large component of any product update in software is the testing, it might be productive to demonstrate that a significant portion of the AE community is willing to participate by testing any future update.



Heck, you guys are testing the existing game 10 years after it was released and posting results for "discussion"!
That should be proof enough!

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Post #: 126
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/4/2019 7:10:01 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Crowe-funding campaigner (shouting): "ARE YOU NOT INTERESTED?"

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 127
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/4/2019 9:37:27 AM   
Fishbed

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Crowe-funding campaigner (shouting): "ARE YOU NOT INTERESTED?"


ANYONE INTERESTED: RAISE YOUR HAND OR YOUR CUCUMBER! OR BOTH!

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Post #: 128
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/4/2019 10:36:06 AM   
XTRG


Posts: 41
Joined: 7/30/2016
Status: offline 		Goes without saying yes!

(in reply to WingCmdr)
Post #: 129
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/4/2019 10:55:02 AM   
LeeChard

 

Posts: 1099
Joined: 9/12/2007
From: Michigan
Status: offline 		Count me in

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Post #: 130
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/4/2019 2:55:43 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Crowe-funding campaigner (shouting): "ARE YOU NOT INTERESTED?"


I think he's rich enough to fund his own life!






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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 131
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/4/2019 2:56:47 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Crowe-funding campaigner (shouting): "ARE YOU NOT INTERESTED?"


ANYONE INTERESTED: RAISE YOUR HAND OR YOUR CUCUMBER! OR BOTH!

I will raise my hand and keep my cucumber discretely tucked away ...

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 132
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/4/2019 7:18:24 PM   
BillBrown


Posts: 2335
Joined: 6/15/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Crowe-funding campaigner (shouting): "ARE YOU NOT INTERESTED?"


ANYONE INTERESTED: RAISE YOUR HAND OR YOUR CUCUMBER! OR BOTH!

I will raise my hand and keep my cucumber discretely tucked away ...


We appreciate this.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 133
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/4/2019 8:09:01 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline 		Another Matrix title (Revolution under Siege) got an update in the form of a re-release as a Gold Edition, containing a number of fixes and improvements to the original game. I bought both the original and the Gold edition, and IMO it was very worthwhile.

It's absolutely a model I can see applied to AE as well.

(in reply to BillBrown)
Post #: 134
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/4/2019 10:45:42 PM   
Knavey

 

Posts: 3052
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From: Valrico, Florida
Status: offline 		Yes.

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Post #: 135
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/5/2019 1:19:41 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		We're here because we love this game - for many of us the love affair has lasted a decade or two. If a better version cones along, we'll embrace it. But there's a good chance we'll look back on this decade as the golden years for Pacific War gaming. Great game. Great community. And we're still relatively young (compared, at least, to a decade hence!)

“I wish there was a way to know you're in the good old days before you've actually left them." - Andy, closing episode of "The Office."

(in reply to Knavey)
Post #: 136
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/5/2019 2:51:34 AM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18715
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Graham, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Another Matrix title (Revolution under Siege) got an update in the form of a re-release as a Gold Edition, containing a number of fixes and improvements to the original game. I bought both the original and the Gold edition, and IMO it was very worthwhile.

It's absolutely a model I can see applied to AE as well.


That's pretty much exactly what AE is, the "Admiral's Edition" of War in the Pacific. Snazzier title than "Gold Edition" for a naval wargame, but it was an update with fixes and many, many improvements but built on the same game engine.

What WitP:AE really needs is not more features or function, but a brand new engine that makes use of multiple processors and more modern hardware, and a redesigned UI to make the player's order entry easier and more intuitive.

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"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


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(in reply to mind_messing)
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RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/5/2019 6:46:23 AM   
Rising-Sun


Posts: 2082
Joined: 11/5/2009
From: Clifton Park, NY
Status: offline 		I am surprise that no one ever bring up, let do this to get this project going. Yes it going to take a lot of efforts to do it. But the original game? That a big IF! And the hardcode will have to be alter and add additional to it if you want this or that.

Or do you guys want a brand new War in the Pacific? Of course will take years to do, depending on how many staffs, supports, man hours as well skills. Not sure how much money they want for this to keep this rolling. For example, Star Citizen took a long time and hellva a lot of money donated to that site. Most fans were unhappy the ways thing went for Star Citizen.

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Post #: 138
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/5/2019 12:41:50 PM   
Moltrey


Posts: 297
Joined: 4/11/2010
From: Virginia
Status: offline 		I suppose there will be a healthy dose of Matrix saying "This is what we are willing to do based on the interest/feedback gents" and we will have to live with it. On the other hand, I am OK with that; 100% of 50% scope is better than 0% of 100% of scope to me.

Overall, I would really enjoy some "help" in slogging through all those thousands of units that need orders on December 8th.
To me this translates into:
- better User Interface and ease in recognition and speed of feature usage while giving orders
- a whole slew of automation and "task stacking" tools that allow coordination w/o having to remember everything turn to turn or 7 turns later
- improved player feedback on actions taken in the interface and local repercussions perhaps

I am a bit concerned about whether Matrix/Slitherine can find the right programming folks to pick WITP:AE up and run with it, but I suppose if they are taking this seriously (it sounds like it so far) that they have considered that already?

(in reply to Rising-Sun)
Post #: 139
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/5/2019 1:23:25 PM   
Gridley380


Posts: 464
Joined: 12/20/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Given that the large component of any product update in software is the testing, it might be productive to demonstrate that a significant portion of the AE community is willing to participate by testing any future update.




I'd be happy to be a beta tester for a new WITP:AE or similar game. I'd also be happy to dig into my various books and excel files and fine-tune the US OrBat to historical standards. :-)

I'd also be someone who'd plunk down money for a new edition. I think I said that already, but just in case...

Oh, and instead of Cucumber, I think it should be called Whiskey In The Pub Games. :-)

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 140
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/5/2019 1:30:48 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moltrey

I suppose there will be a healthy dose of Matrix saying "This is what we are willing to do based on the interest/feedback gents" and we will have to live with it. On the other hand, I am OK with that; 100% of 50% scope is better than 0% of 100% of scope to me.

Overall, I would really enjoy some "help" in slogging through all those thousands of units that need orders on December 8th.
To me this translates into:
- better User Interface and ease in recognition and speed of feature usage while giving orders
- a whole slew of automation and "task stacking" tools that allow coordination w/o having to remember everything turn to turn or 7 turns later
- improved player feedback on actions taken in the interface and local repercussions perhaps

I am a bit concerned about whether Matrix/Slitherine can find the right programming folks to pick WITP:AE up and run with it, but I suppose if they are taking this seriously (it sounds like it so far) that they have considered that already?


Before you start coding a game engine, you have to settle on game design. This would be like setting out the design criteria for a new building before asking architects to submit their designs for it.

The problem here is that the basic design of the game with all its combat resolution and movement algorithms and databases comes from one Mr. Gary Grigsby, who has ownership of the game design and has already said he would never do another game like WITP-AE because of the complexity it presented. So if he is not on board, the first step would be buying the rights to the game design from him. After that the tweaks to game design we have been talking about could be dealt with and put in the programming specification.

The alternative to this is to abandon Gary Grigsby's approach and design the game quite differently - which would make it a new and unfamiliar game. I don't think most of the current game's fans would want a complete new approach.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Moltrey)
Post #: 141
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/5/2019 1:42:37 PM   
Moltrey


Posts: 297
Joined: 4/11/2010
From: Virginia
Status: offline 		Yeah, I can appreciate that BBfanboy.

That all points back to my first sentence. We (the players) don't know a lot of things, both internal to the game code and external.
I don't particularly want or see a change to Gary's signature design platform as necessary or in anyone's best interest. However, the problem is we are in the dark as to whether any of our requests can be accomplished within the current Grigsby structure or not.
Frustrating to a degree, but I think we still need to go through the exercise if only to relay our basic wants and needs to Matrix.

At the end of the day we might not get what the majority are looking for in a new upgraded version. Or- perhaps we will. Too many parties involved to sort it out.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 142
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/5/2019 2:42:08 PM   
Rising-Sun


Posts: 2082
Joined: 11/5/2009
From: Clifton Park, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moltrey

I suppose there will be a healthy dose of Matrix saying "This is what we are willing to do based on the interest/feedback gents" and we will have to live with it. On the other hand, I am OK with that; 100% of 50% scope is better than 0% of 100% of scope to me.

Overall, I would really enjoy some "help" in slogging through all those thousands of units that need orders on December 8th.
To me this translates into:
- better User Interface and ease in recognition and speed of feature usage while giving orders
- a whole slew of automation and "task stacking" tools that allow coordination w/o having to remember everything turn to turn or 7 turns later
- improved player feedback on actions taken in the interface and local repercussions perhaps

I am a bit concerned about whether Matrix/Slitherine can find the right programming folks to pick WITP:AE up and run with it, but I suppose if they are taking this seriously (it sounds like it so far) that they have considered that already?


Before you start coding a game engine, you have to settle on game design. This would be like setting out the design criteria for a new building before asking architects to submit their designs for it.

The problem here is that the basic design of the game with all its combat resolution and movement algorithms and databases comes from one Mr. Gary Grigsby, who has ownership of the game design and has already said he would never do another game like WITP-AE because of the complexity it presented. So if he is not on board, the first step would be buying the rights to the game design from him. After that the tweaks to game design we have been talking about could be dealt with and put in the programming specification.

The alternative to this is to abandon Gary Grigsby's approach and design the game quite differently - which would make it a new and unfamiliar game. I don't think most of the current game's fans would want a complete new approach.


That what happen to Hearts of Iron II, there were few games such as Iron Cross, Darkest Hours, etc. Somehow the players or fans manage to buy the license and got this rolling and selling it on the market.

They did however manage to improve the game in some ways. For example, Darkest Hours were a little more complex and many zones were placed.

< Message edited by Rising-Sun -- 7/5/2019 2:44:15 PM >

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Post #: 143
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/6/2019 12:19:53 PM   
LeeChard

 

Posts: 1099
Joined: 9/12/2007
From: Michigan
Status: offline 		I agree with BBfanboy about some of the hurdles we would have to clear. I would want to base the new game on
the original design. That way it could possibly use the same stats and bypass the enormous research requirements
and just leave it open to some tweaking or user friendly modding.
My main objectives would be taking advantage of windows to be able to open screens side by side and compare things
before making a change that can't be undone(hmm...should I upgrade or keep producing what's online?).
A new and changeable map for road building and such. Some zoom capability for us old farts who need to plant our
faces about 6 inches from the screen to see some details.
And for players like me, who prefer single player, an improved and adaptable AI. That one seems like the toughest
challenge.
Maybe Grigsby would trade his rights for some royalty agreement. It would be great if he were available to oversee
and have some input but leave him out of the grunt work.



(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 144
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/6/2019 12:37:21 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline 		As interesting as it is to discuss WITP 2, the topic here is an update for AE as it stands.

quote:

I agree with BBfanboy about some of the hurdles we would have to clear. I would want to base the new game on
the original design. That way it could possibly use the same stats and bypass the enormous research requirements
and just leave it open to some tweaking or user friendly modding.
My main objectives would be taking advantage of windows to be able to open screens side by side and compare things
before making a change that can't be undone(hmm...should I upgrade or keep producing what's online?).
A new and changeable map for road building and such. Some zoom capability for us old farts who need to plant our
faces about 6 inches from the screen to see some details.
And for players like me, who prefer single player, an improved and adaptable AI. That one seems like the toughest
challenge.
Maybe Grigsby would trade his rights for some royalty agreement. It would be great if he were available to oversee
and have some input but leave him out of the grunt work.


I don't see the value in this. It was historically very minor and the only major road/rail efforts were in fringe theatres.

If you let players control it then there's min-maxing to connect Malaya to Port Arthur or build a railroad to Darwin, which upsets the strategic balance ahistorically.

Zoom capability and the QoL improevements you suggest would be good.

AI is scripted, and it's not a proper "AI".

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 145
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/6/2019 3:01:52 PM   
Fishbed

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline 		Actually I am not convinced that hexagones would be the way to go if a remake was to be made. But I would certainly keep WEGO and improve on it (with the possibility of actual TCP/IP WEGO, that is simultaneous turn planning).

And I would gladly also make CBI work in a different, abstracted fashion. An engine running the War at Sea and the Land War both satisfactorily is a big endeavor, and CBI would require so much testing and balancing I am not convinced it would be worth the effort. How many of you actually enjoy the war in China or even in Burma in terms of gameplay, compared to actual PTO action? Overall it would also help to keep the game focused.

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Post #: 146
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/6/2019 4:16:01 PM   
Moltrey


Posts: 297
Joined: 4/11/2010
From: Virginia
Status: offline
quote:

As interesting as it is to discuss WITP 2, the topic here is an update for AE as it stands.

I don't see the value in this. It was historically very minor and the only major road/rail efforts were in fringe theatres.
If you let players control it then there's min-maxing to connect Malaya to Port Arthur or build a railroad to Darwin, which upsets the strategic balance ahistorically.
Zoom capability and the QoL improevements you suggest would be good.
AI is scripted, and it's not a proper "AI".

__________________________________________________________________________

I agree with mind_messing here. Matrix will have to be very specific about what things are ON or OFF the development "table" for consideration. Scope creep is not something that can be afforded on this project.

I also agree about the building idea, but mostly because we all know (whether we want to admit it or not) that any crack in gameplay that allows player-induced flow will be abused by players, period. Gonna happen, guaranteed. Personally I don't think it matters how many will cross that line. I prefer its inclusion via mods and scenarios.

I risk accusation of being off topic, but would argue that there is always an undercurrent on these and other forums.

Namely, CONTROL.
It is the 800 pound Gorilla in the Wargaming room. How much of it do you allow the gamer? When? -and under what circumstances? Over the years (I am 55) I have seen many games come and go, been on countless forums and discussions. Some things never change. Some wargamers get very irritated when they feel a lack of complete control of their digital pixeltruppen. I suppose at the end of the day it boils down to personal preference and ones life experiences.

Undoubtedly, most of you have already surmised that I am not in this camp. I much prefer to be immersed in the greater personal experience that senior commanders of the day must have lived through. The stress and worry of being a flag rank officer must have been acute and agonizing.

With regard to WITP:AE I almost relish the fog of war component that Grigsby and Henderson Field Designs have presented us. To me, being both enthralled by the possibilities and frustrated by intel that I can't trust IS the game. I feel it is a brilliant design and is what makes War in the Pacific a true classic.

I am interested in other's point of view regarding this and continued scope discussions.

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 147
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/7/2019 10:32:42 AM   
DFN

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 5/7/2017
Status: offline 		Am i the only one that realized that the next installment of the series is already unofficially in development for some years now?

(in reply to Moltrey)
Post #: 148
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/7/2019 11:17:25 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		A command structure that actually means something would be wonderful.

Both a need and an ability to transfer units to the correct HQs to maximize operations would be wonderful.

_____________________________

Hans


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Post #: 149
RE: Is anyone interested in an update for AE? - 7/7/2019 12:09:58 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DFN

Am i the only one that realized that the next installment of the series is already unofficially in development for some years now?


Putting about unsubstantiated rumours is akin to trolling.

Alfred

(in reply to DFN)
Post #: 150
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