RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers

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RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/10/2019 2:42:14 PM

wodin

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A " where we're at so far " post would be enough for most I'm sure. Even if it's saying still on drawing board. Then folks will have a better idea on where the project is currently at. Which is what would be cool to know and will put a pause to negative speculation and satisfy curiosity.

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RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/10/2019 4:14:21 PM

MrsWargamer

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There's two types of PR, good and bad.

Would it really hurt someone relevant to drop by and say a few words?

We don't need information that's confidential. We don't needs screen shots.

But a total lack of input? A great big nothing?

Silence is actually a response, and it tells me they don't actually care.

Ok, I don't actually care either. Fine, work on your program. But keep in mind, I probably won't be there for you with my wallet. Hope you are enjoying the effort. Hope you are not really expecting to 'profit' from it.

I'm not requiring them to spend all day every day chatting here, I'd just like one person to drop by, say a few words, and then go back to work.

I don't think Steel Tigers is 'vapourware', but I think 2by3 lacks any understanding of PR. Just because they have done some games in the past, doesn't instill any confidence they give a hoot about this program.

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RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/10/2019 4:23:55 PM

zasgard

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We're all entitled to our opinions and some people here are more in the "know" that some of us (me), but until something is posted by a developer (status update, screen shots, etc...)....a game is vaporware. Personally, I'd be shocked if this game makes it to the shelf. Hope I'm wrong

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Post #: 243

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/10/2019 5:06:15 PM

76mm

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quote:

I'm not requiring them to spend all day every day chatting here, I'd just like one person to drop by, say a few words, and then go back to work.

Your wish is my command!

Unfortunately I have nothing to do with the game (not a dev or tester), but 2x3 has also been working on WITE2 for about four years, and they actively comment about that game on this thread: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3933956&mpage=58. Here are a few words from Joel Billings from that thread, posted less than a week ago (potentially relevant text highlighted by me):

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

We expect [WITE2] will come out in 2020, but there's no guarantee as we're a small group. We still have some major work to do on the air game and also the interface face-lift. We have had several health issues come up over the past year that have slowed us down. Also, one of the two programmers is part time and he's had less time to work on the game this past year. We're not happy it's taken this long, but we have been making good progress recently. We didn't expect it to take this long, but there's a lot of new things in the game...but its taking time to get it all in, working and balanced...Gary thinks that of all his games, WitP was the most complicated to design and code, and he thinks that WitE2 is now 10x the internal complexity of WitP. Let's just say it's a challenge for all of us, but we're determined to get it done.

Assuming that there is not a different team for Steel Tigers (given the small size of the team, this seems unlikely), you can draw your own conclusions about timing from Joel's post above.

My (uninformed) guess based on the above is that while Steel Tigers might technically be "in development" (OOBs being worked on, maybe some graphics, etc.) it does not appear that much has happened with the game in terms of programming in the last year, or will happen in the next year. After that, who knows?

It is unfortunate that we have to connect the dots like this rather than hearing directly from Matrix or 2x3, but there you have it...

< Message edited by 76mm -- 7/10/2019 5:07:43 PM >

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RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/10/2019 5:07:49 PM

wodin

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I'm certain the game will be released, this is 2by3 we are talking about not some in-house or new development team.

Also quiet or not I won't cut my nose of to spite my face. When released if it's good then I want it, simple.

I also don't expect to see game for at least two more years, isn't WitE2 first?

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Post #: 245

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/10/2019 5:15:56 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin
I'm certain the game will be released, this is 2by3 we are talking about not some in-house or new development team.

My guess is that it will eventually be released, but I'm far from certain:
Key developers could have health/personal issues/move to an ashram, the company or individual devs could be distracted by higher priority/dollar value projects, maybe they don't own all the necessary rights, maybe they need new team members to deal with specific coding issues, who knows?

When/if it is finally released, I'd be surprised if Steel Tigers is not one of the biggest sellers here in a long time, so I expect that the devs are incentivized to get this done eventually.

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Post #: 246

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/10/2019 6:07:07 PM

MrsWargamer

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Health issues, not really an excuse. Short of dying from something, a quick post is like 5 minutes, a once only event.

If it is overshadowed by WitE2, they COULD just say it. Regardless of how complicated WitE2 is, would it be so hard to come here, once, and say, hey, we are behind schedule, WitE2 has given us a few twists, health has slowed us recently and Steel Tigers is still in the works?

Steel Tigers could be the greatest thing to ever happen to squad tactical, or a massive disappointment. It's not possible to know which in advance.
I'm not planning to die or anything any time soon :)

But a lot of life can happen between now and 2022 for me. I'm kinda dreaming of wandering around with my sweatheart beginning of summer 2020. By 2022, I might be living out of a tiny house lifestyle and mostly too busy enjoying seeing new places, and eating in new locations to indulge in a lot of what makes my current routine.

Can't speak for you guys, but, I consider the lack of input as potentially rude, potentially indifferent, potentially over confident, potentially all of the above. And it wouldn't be the first time someone has spent a lot of time and energy, and then someone out of the blue shows up just moments before, and steals the show with essentially the same game but first.

Ya snooze, ya lose.

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Post #: 247

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/10/2019 6:16:20 PM

zakblood

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I'm certain the game will be released, this is 2by3 we are talking about not some in-house or new development team.

Also quiet or not I won't cut my nose of to spite my face. When released if it's good then I want it, simple.

I also don't expect to see game for at least two more years, isn't WitE2 first?

correct, WITE2 is first and is still in early alpha /beta

(in reply to wodin)

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RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/10/2019 6:51:01 PM

Lobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zakblood

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I'm certain the game will be released, this is 2by3 we are talking about not some in-house or new development team.

Also quiet or not I won't cut my nose of to spite my face. When released if it's good then I want it, simple.

I also don't expect to see game for at least two more years, isn't WitE2 first?

correct, WITE2 is first and is still in early alpha /beta

Are they going to do a better job of time/space management or will it be the same old throw it out the window?

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RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/10/2019 7:07:47 PM

zakblood

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was going to make a reply, but why bother, it seems your all great at program and can already do better, so i'll wait for your next games

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RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/10/2019 7:18:03 PM

rwenstrup

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There used to be a close bond between the community and the Matrix team. Not sure what has happened, but it is clear that this is no longer true.
It is not unreasonable for the loyal Steel Panthers fans to desire some information on a game that was announced a couple of years ago.
It seems the mentality is that the customers/fans are a 'problem'. It used to be that the customer/fans were 'friends'. I used to feel that way ...
Isn't it time to provide some polite information about the status of a game introduced a long time ago? This is not an unreasonable question ...
It is sad to see the Matrix team fall so far from what it used to be ...

< Message edited by rwenstrup -- 7/10/2019 8:22:35 PM >

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RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/10/2019 7:18:36 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zakblood
was going to make a reply, but why bother, it seems your all great at program and can already do better, so i'll wait for your next games

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RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/10/2019 7:44:44 PM

Zorch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zakblood

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

I'm certain the game will be released, this is 2by3 we are talking about not some in-house or new development team.

Also quiet or not I won't cut my nose of to spite my face. When released if it's good then I want it, simple.

I also don't expect to see game for at least two more years, isn't WitE2 first?

correct, WITE2 is first and is still in early alpha /beta

I respect 2by3's commitment to doing games right. Some companies would have pushed WitE 2.0 out the door soon after WitW was released.

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RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/10/2019 8:05:36 PM

tcarusil

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This all sounds so familiar. Went through the same situation waiting for TOAW IV, though in the case of TOAW IV the "team" was not so large. Patience paid off, but it was frustrating. So much goodwill could be gained from just a few words.

TomC

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Post #: 254

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/11/2019 2:19:09 AM

Challerain

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Was Steel Tigers ever formally announced? I've seen people from Matrix talking about it but never a formal announcement.

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RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/11/2019 2:52:05 AM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Challerain
Was Steel Tigers ever formally announced? I've seen people from Matrix talking about it but never a formal announcement.

According to the link in the first post in this thread, it was announced. That announcement is good enough for me, I have not gone back to look at Matrix/Slitherine announcements from that long ago. Moreover, Matrix has said repeatedly in various threads that "they're working on it", without more info.

The fact that the 2x3 guys are pretty good about commenting about their other games on the forums but have stayed completely mum on the topic of Steel Tigers (AFAIK) seems a little...odd.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 7/11/2019 2:55:05 AM >

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RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/11/2019 5:47:52 AM

rico21

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Art and the spirit
Create, it does not order like a pizza. the heavenly light must penetrate your mind and guide you to the end of your creation.
It can take time, a lot of time.
Especially if your mind is already cluttered with another creation.
In this case, 2 years to finish the current project plus 2 years to achieve Steel tigers == 2023 at the earliest.
Hoping that everything is fine, no other creation, no disease ...
Chance of abandonment 50%.

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RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/13/2019 7:54:44 PM

ncc1701e

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zakblood

was going to make a reply, but why bother, it seems your all great at program and can already do better, so i'll wait for your next games

LOL

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RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/14/2019 7:37:01 AM

aleajactaest10044

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From another thread...

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4601940

Post #18

"We are developing the following wargames internally :

Close Combat
Steel Tigers
Field of Glory Empires
Helping with Field of Glory

There are also a number of big wargames in development but they take an awfully long time to do. E.g. War in the East 2.

The rest of the games are designed and developed by external teams. We never go out and ask developers to make a game about X (except in a rare situation where we acquire a license such as Battlestar Galactica and then we look for someone with a suitable engine to fit the required genre). The developer has to have a passion and vision for the game or it doesn't work so we can only pick from what is out there to publish. If you think we're missing some good wargames we'd be very happy to find out about them so we can contact the developers. We would love to publish a good new Civil War game is anyone wants to make one :)

Neverdark was not commissioned by us, we just saw it and liked it so signed it up. It does not in any way indicate a move away from wargames. If we see any interesting wargame projects you can be sure we'll try and sign them up too!

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< Message edited by aleajactaest10044 -- 7/14/2019 7:38:55 AM >

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RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/14/2019 12:30:50 PM

76mm

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quote:

We are developing the following wargames internally :

Close Combat
Steel Tigers
Field of Glory Empires
Helping with Field of Glory

So 2x3 isn't doing it after all? Or 2x3 is part of Matrix now (don't think so, but...)? And no word from anybody about the status of this game...

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RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/14/2019 3:41:22 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IainMcNeil

We are developing the following wargames internally :

Close Combat
Steel Tigers
Field of Glory Empires
Helping with Field of Glory

Well, in the complete absence of info from the devs, let's do what the internet does best--engage in wild speculation!

I note that all of the games other than Steel Tigers listed above use a "3Dish" view rather than top-down (I guess with the Archon engine). So my hunch is that Steel Tigers will use the same view, rather than the traditional top-down view. Also, I'm not really familiar with the Close Combat series anymore, but I don't think that any of the other games listed above use hexes either... So I'd guess either squares or maybe point-to-point movement/fire (ie, no hexes or squares, just a map). Of course these guesses could be completely wrong, but it sure seems like that if the internal dev team is used to working with certain game types, they will keep doing so to crank out the game in a more efficient manner.

Personally I don't think I would mind a 3Dish view, as long as it avoids the slightly cartoony look of Battle Academy (or Panzer Corps?), although I'm not sure that the approach will work as well for Steel Tigers as for FOG2 or Close Combat, simply because the battlefields will be bigger in Steel Tigers, and it will be harder to maintain situational awareness without a top down view. That said, IIRC if you zoom out enough in FOG2 you end up with a top-down view, so maybe even that isn't a big deal either. But I supposed that some traditionalists will miss the top-down approach.

And I'm sure that the game will be broken down into many DLCs, that is how game economics work these days. But I sure hope that the first game includes the East Front instead of only D-Day/Battle of the Bulge, or a DLC for the East is available immediately upon release.

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RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/14/2019 4:16:29 PM

Kuokkanen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I note that all of the games other than Steel Tigers listed above use a "3Dish" view rather than top-down (I guess with the Archon engine). So my hunch is that Steel Tigers will use the same view, rather than the traditional top-down view.

At least Battle Academy, Sengoku Jidai, and Aggressors: Ancient Rome have a toggle switch for top-down view. Graphics are still 3d for the first 2 games, just from different perspective.

quote:

And I'm sure that the game will be broken down into many DLCs, that is how game economics work these days. But I sure hope that the first game includes the East Front instead of only D-Day/Battle of the Bulge, or a DLC for the East is available immediately upon release.

SPWAW got bunch of DLC called Mega Campaigns. Original Steel Panthers had DLC also and I have some. Difference is DLC of the time (original/first Steel Panthers) were delivered on floppy disks by mail, or bought from a computer store.

< Message edited by Kuokkanen -- 7/14/2019 4:17:17 PM >

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RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/15/2019 2:28:31 PM

wodin

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I don't so much mind the view angle. It's how detailed the game will be is my concern. Fingers crossed it can do the complexity of SP and hopefully improve on it.

We all know there is no chance it will cover the same scope SP did. Those days are dead and buried. I hope it starts with something other than West Front 44 onwards. Though knowing Slitherine they'll probably want the US in at start. Maybe proved wrong here though.

Anyway if it has everything a grog like tactical wargame should have I will be happy. We haven't had that really since release of SP. Matrix hasn't (apart from their SP version) actually released a new hard core tactical wargame at this scale, yes been a couple of boardgame conversions which really are hampered by the boardgame design. Imagine the Grand Strat or Operational gamers having to wait so long!! Other than SP I think that only Squad Battles has come the closest but even that has a couple of mechanics that prevent it from being superb. Oh if only that source code was given out! Hello new ammo mechanic, wound mechanic and multi level buildings!

< Message edited by wodin -- 7/15/2019 2:35:19 PM >

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RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/15/2019 3:46:59 PM

Zovs

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Sorry but it is not Steel Panthers unless its top down view like all SP games. If its 3D then it's not SP no matter which way you cut it.

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RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/15/2019 4:01:49 PM

Capitaine

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Sorry but it is not Steel Panthers unless its top down view like all SP games. If its 3D then it's not SP no matter which way you cut it.

Just stop that. That's not true at all and you're just expressing a nostalgic preference. If the original Steel Panthers were released today, I'm certain it would've been 3D and not rinky dink "top down" lol.

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RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/15/2019 4:09:50 PM

Zap

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Sorry but it is not Steel Panthers unless its top down view like all SP games. If its 3D then it's not SP no matter which way you cut it.

Just stop that. That's not true at all and you're just expressing a nostalgic preference. If the original Steel Panthers were released today, I'm certain it would've been 3D and not rinky dink "top down" lol.

I would think they will offer multiple views. 2D and 3D similar to Tillers Campaign Series. The only way to please both camps.

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RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/15/2019 4:51:08 PM

Zovs

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Steel Panthers is very much like ASL, Top Down included, not some funky whacky 3D imagery. If you want that you got Combat Mission for the "3D" stuff.

We have been playing (those that are true to SP series) Steel Panthers for over 20+ years in one form or another and none of these are in 3D land.

So no, if Steel Tigers in is 3D then its not Steel Panthers at all, its just Combat Mission/Panzer Korps/Panzer General 2.

No thanks.

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RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/15/2019 5:22:59 PM

wodin

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Really don't get that. The isometric view is nothing like Combat Mission and the like.

It's the gameplay\mechanics that makes it play like an updated SP not the visuals.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Steel Panthers is very much like ASL, Top Down included, not some funky whacky 3D imagery. If you want that you got Combat Mission for the "3D" stuff.

We have been playing (those that are true to SP series) Steel Panthers for over 20+ years in one form or another and none of these are in 3D land.

So no, if Steel Tigers in is 3D then its not Steel Panthers at all, its just Combat Mission/Panzer Korps/Panzer General 2.

No thanks.

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RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/15/2019 6:10:37 PM

Zovs

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By Isometric I am assuming you mean like how Panzer Korps, Order of Battle and JTCS is?

If so then that is still not Steel Panthers, Steel Panthers has always been a top down view, much like ASL, and there is really nothing wrong with that. In fact the two camps (SPWaW and SPWW2/MBT) have a huge fan base and I would say 99% of them don't wan't a Panzer Korps 3D view.

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RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/15/2019 7:11:42 PM

76mm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap
I would think they will offer multiple views. 2D and 3D similar to Tillers Campaign Series. The only way to please both camps.

I wonder if this would be feasible, or if they'd have to have double the artwork. The difference with the Campaign Series is that the 2d view is made up of NATO counters or silhouettes, not camo'd vehicles with movable turrets, etc. But maybe it wouldn't be very hard/time consuming.

Personally I'm pretty much indifferent between top-down or isometric; if isometric, sure it might not be "Steel Panthers" but it would still be a very welcome addition to my hard drive if it has crisp graphics and steel-panthers-level detail/realism. I don't care what you call it...

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Post #: 270