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RE: FITE 2 - 7/29/2019 9:55:54 PM   
docgaun

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 1/26/2012
Status: offline 		I am sorry, I don’t understand, where you are getting this from. They are not removed. There is a lot of them in game. But not all, as not all partisans are there, and not all NKVD. Its not a partisan scenario. Or am I missing your point. Are you talking about the Partisan event?

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Post #: 61
RE: FITE 2 - 7/29/2019 10:08:09 PM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline 		Don't want to interfere but how did you decide what security Divs to keep?

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Post #: 62
RE: FITE 2 - 7/30/2019 12:41:13 AM   
Lobster


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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: docgaun

I am sorry, I don’t understand, where you are getting this from. They are not removed. There is a lot of them in game. But not all, as not all partisans are there, and not all NKVD. Its not a partisan scenario. Or am I missing your point. Are you talking about the Partisan event?



Turn One Axis Theater Option: "Let's play without partisans"

If this is selected it begins the process of removing the German Sich divisions

There are the ones in the North turn one.





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< Message edited by Lobster -- 7/30/2019 12:42:25 AM >

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Post #: 63
RE: FITE 2 - 7/30/2019 12:43:45 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		Turn Two Soviet Theater Option: Partisans? I can't be bothered either

Select this also and on turn 3...






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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

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Post #: 64
RE: FITE 2 - 7/30/2019 12:44:43 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		And this. The 281 Sich Division was the one that became surrounded an Kholm during the Soviet 1941 Winter Offensive and along with elements of the 285 Sich Division held off the Soviets until relieved. Can't recall how long it took. Some Sich divisions played important rolls during Soviet offensives. Others just got smashed. But they were there in the fight. Forgot to mention. They also took part in mop up operations of pockets.

All of them get removed.







I won't even get into the Wach battalions that were involved in the fighting during the Soviet 1941 Winter Offensive.

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< Message edited by Lobster -- 7/30/2019 12:55:40 AM >

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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

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Post #: 65
RE: FITE 2 - 7/30/2019 5:42:18 AM   
docgaun

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 1/26/2012
Status: offline 		Big.duke 66 I believe all Sich Divisions are there. But not the battalions Lobster talks about.

Lobster. the answer is simple. Just don’t click the option. It’s for those that can’t be bothered ;) Kristian never takes it, and its soly up to the Axis player.

The battalions you talk about are simply to unimportant to have in a scenario like this. Like the 2000 Soviet reserve battalions of various types, and the different foreign companies that served as rear guard and garrisons.
There are also no MT boats and there is no splitting of the Soviets RVGK and PVO regiments as historical. That would use up more than the available 10.000 units and would simply be a nuisance to play with.

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Post #: 66
RE: FITE 2 - 7/30/2019 6:09:19 AM   
bcgames


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quote:

ORIGINAL: docgaun

...The battalions you talk about are simply to unimportant to have in a scenario like this. Like the 2000 Soviet reserve battalions of various types, and the different foreign companies that served as rear guard and garrisons.
There are also no MT boats and there is no splitting of the Soviets RVGK and PVO regiments as historical. That would use up more than the available 10.000 units and would simply be a nuisance to play with.


These battalions might best be represented in the game system/individual scenarios using amalgamations of all the unit capabilities; IOW find the time to represent the effects of units and less thought on the physical representations of actual unit counters on the map. Sometimes representing the effects of units/capabilities is "more realistic" than physical representations on the game map.


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Post #: 67
RE: FITE 2 - 7/30/2019 12:11:12 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: docgaun

Big.duke 66 I believe all Sich Divisions are there. But not the battalions Lobster talks about.

Lobster. the answer is simple. Just don’t click the option. It’s for those that can’t be bothered ;) Kristian never takes it, and its soly up to the Axis player.

The battalions you talk about are simply to unimportant to have in a scenario like this. Like the 2000 Soviet reserve battalions of various types, and the different foreign companies that served as rear guard and garrisons.
There are also no MT boats and there is no splitting of the Soviets RVGK and PVO regiments as historical. That would use up more than the available 10.000 units and would simply be a nuisance to play with.



There are only a handful of Security divisions. They are already there so nothing is being added. They performed mop up duties and at times front line duties. They are not unimportant nor would they be additional units since they are already there. The mop up duties in pockets were very important because it released front line infantry units for more important things. You did say they were not removed. Just ban them from front line work.

For that matter I always see MP units running around as shock troops. Remove them as well since they are also rear area units. They should not be taking part in front line duties let alone used as recon units.

_____________________________

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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

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Post #: 68
RE: FITE 2 - 7/30/2019 10:20:15 PM   
docgaun

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 1/26/2012
Status: offline 		BCgames: I agree.

Lobster. Just don’t take the darn option. You can use them for mobbing up all you want, AND for fighting partisan as historically. 😉.

The MP units did see combat during Barbarossa; however, it was not their function. They did provide vital pathfinding recon and direction, so that’s why they are there. They were ahead of other combat troops very often, as resistance was sporadic and maps inaccurate. That’s why they had motorcycles. If you haven’t read about how they were used in Barbarossa, you should try to do so. They were NOT rear area units in Barbarossa as you state.
You use them exactly as they were used historically it seems. 😉

But I think I discovered an error, so thank you for that. They don’t have traffic control as they should have. And as you know that is useful in TOAW. Ill fix that in the next update.

Let’s not turn this into a discussion about how has read different books. Just don’t click the “lets play without partisans” event and you can play with all the sec divisions, but you will have to deal with partisans.
On that note lets close the discussion on the "lets play without partisans" event

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Post #: 69
RE: FITE 2 - 7/30/2019 11:09:08 PM   
fogger

 

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quote:

On that note lets close the discussion on the "lets play without partisans" event


Yes can that be the last "full stop" on the matter. Soren is a very, very busy man and I would much prefer him to be working on the next update than spending time here answering perceived problems which at the end of the day is nothing more "pocket shrapnel".

I for one NEVER play with partisans. They waste so much time and at the end of the day have no effect on the outcome of a game.

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Post #: 70
RE: FITE 2 - 7/30/2019 11:18:09 PM   
larryfulkerson


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quote:

...and at the end of the day have no effect on the outcome of a game.

I remember a game, recently, with an opponent that used his partisans to cut the supply flow to a great section of my Axis front lines and it caused me, eventually, to have to pull back and my Soviet opponent took advantage of my movement to make severe gains in territory and the whole character of the game changed. So partisans can be a minor pain in the butt or game-changers, depending on how you use them.

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Post #: 71
RE: FITE 2 - 7/31/2019 3:25:25 AM   
Lobster


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Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		I'm always looking for new material on the East Front. Where can I read about these combat MPs and their recon into enemy territory exploits?

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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

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Post #: 72
RE: FITE 2 - 7/31/2019 5:15:22 AM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

an opponent that used his partisans to cut the supply flow to a great section of my Axis front lines


This is notable. Depending on game scale, the effects of minor operators like Partisans can be greatly exaggerated in TOAW. Had the same issue with the von der Heydte airborne unit during the playtesting of the first version of Goetterdaemmerung.

If you have the rear area actions going on in a game, all the forces have to be present. In the example I just mentioned, what was missing was hundreds of French, Belgian, and Dutch light infantry battalions on security duties behind the front lines of the Western Allies. Ditto had the para unit been used on the Eastern Front -- there should be all the NKVD etc. units available to combat such incursions.

As mentioned above, it is questionable how worthwhile scenario depiction of the war between the partisans and the security forces really is.

Cheers

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Post #: 73
RE: FITE 2 - 7/31/2019 5:22:40 AM   
larryfulkerson


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quote:

...it is questionable how worthwhile scenario depiction of the war between the partisans and the security forces really is.

I have mixed feelings about partisans. I remember my delight when I discovered partisan units in my first run through of DNO. But that was more than a decade ago. Now when I play an eastern front scenario I feel like I could really do without the partisans, prefering to concentrate on the main theater instead. I could do without the Finns and Swedes and Turks and Iranians entirely. Those are just side issues to deal with. Distractions.

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Post #: 74
RE: FITE 2 - 7/31/2019 12:48:53 PM   
Lobster


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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

quote:

an opponent that used his partisans to cut the supply flow to a great section of my Axis front lines


This is notable. Depending on game scale, the effects of minor operators like Partisans can be greatly exaggerated in TOAW. Had the same issue with the von der Heydte airborne unit during the playtesting of the first version of Goetterdaemmerung.

If you have the rear area actions going on in a game, all the forces have to be present. In the example I just mentioned, what was missing was hundreds of French, Belgian, and Dutch light infantry battalions on security duties behind the front lines of the Western Allies. Ditto had the para unit been used on the Eastern Front -- there should be all the NKVD etc. units available to combat such incursions.

As mentioned above, it is questionable how worthwhile scenario depiction of the war between the partisans and the security forces really is.

Cheers


This is exactly correct. Unless you plan on committing all of the partisan, anti partisan and security forces to the game you might as well not bother. IMO it would be overwhelming in a game like FitE. There were many instances where anti partisan forces were made to fight 'front line troops'. The major Soviet offensives are the best examples. And like cathar pointed out, one of the duties of NKVD rear area troops was to counter airborne units and forces such as Brandenburgers (which are never properly modeled).

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 75
RE: FITE 2 - 8/1/2019 10:13:12 AM   
sPzAbt653


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From: east coast, usa
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quote:

Brandenburgers (which are never properly modeled).

So tell us how you have modeled them in your scenarios. Or if it's easier, just point us to which scenario's you have designed and we can take a look.

Also, when you play FitE2, do you play With or Without the Partisan Option? If you play With, do you use any self-imposed rules?

< Message edited by sPzAbt653 -- 8/1/2019 10:14:01 AM >

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Post #: 76
RE: FITE 2 - 8/1/2019 12:09:10 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

Brandenburgers (which are never properly modeled).

So tell us how you have modeled them in your scenarios. Or if it's easier, just point us to which scenario's you have designed and we can take a look.

Also, when you play FitE2, do you play With or Without the Partisan Option? If you play With, do you use any self-imposed rules?


Currently working on a 2.5km Barbarossa scenario. No partisans because like I said it would be overwhelming and in 1941 the partisans were not really a factor yet anyway. About the only ones that mattered were the ones in the Baltic states and a handful in Ukraine. I really don't think you can properly represent them on a 10km map or greater. TOAW does not do a good job with partisans. It's too easy to know where they will appear. They shouldn't even be represented by units by rather by effects balanced by anti partisan forces present that exert a force that diminishes with distance. Something like a zone of control. TOAW can't do that.








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_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 77
RE: FITE 2 - 8/1/2019 2:17:09 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline 		Jack that is one massive honking map!

My goodness.

Yeah, some how the partisan event's in my game totally screwed up the rail lines. So I have to remove those events for now and see if there is a way to somehow tie partisans in. Originally I did it with an event triggered by the Axis taking a hex but it does not seem to work and they start tearing up the rail line on turn 2.

If your familiar with partisans and events, would you be free to take a look?

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Post #: 78
RE: FITE 2 - 8/1/2019 2:44:07 PM   
Zovs


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Status: offline 		I fixed it!

Man, it was an event that was linked incorrectly!

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Post #: 79
RE: FITE 2 - 8/1/2019 3:12:19 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

I fixed it!

Man, it was an event that was linked incorrectly!


Evil Ed.

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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

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Post #: 80
RE: FITE 2 - 8/1/2019 5:12:52 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline 		Does evil Ed work on w10? Where can I down load again?

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Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
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WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
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Post #: 81
RE: FITE 2 - 8/1/2019 5:16:49 PM   
VHauser


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

It's the anchorage tile that does it.



Ah. I don't suppose there's an easy way to make the river act like a river while there is an anchorage located there?


Just one more reason to have hexside rivers.


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Post #: 82
RE: FITE 2 - 8/2/2019 2:15:50 PM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline 		Currently working on a 2.5km Barbarossa scenario.

Lobster ... that is a massive map. Wow.

Cheers

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Post #: 83
RE: FITE 2 - 8/3/2019 3:29:16 AM   
sPzAbt653


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From: east coast, usa
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quote:

Currently working on a 2.5km Barbarossa scenario.

Excellent. Put all your theories to practice there and let others do what they want. We must have about 20 East Front scenarios and probably 10 Barbarossa's, they all don't have to be Jack's take.

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Post #: 84
RE: FITE 2 - 8/3/2019 10:02:26 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

quote:

Currently working on a 2.5km Barbarossa scenario.

Excellent. Put all your theories to practice there and let others do what they want. We must have about 20 East Front scenarios and probably 10 Barbarossa's, they all don't have to be Jack's take.


They ask for input. I gave it. What's your point?

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 85
RE: FITE 2 - 8/3/2019 11:19:48 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Nobody asked you anything, you showed up and started telling them that things are wrong and according to you how they should be done. This is not your scenario, let them design it as they want. Even after they tell you why things are as they are you continue to berate them. Meanwhile, you have no design credits and you don't play the scenario, therefore your opinion carries no weight.

Hope your wife gets well soon

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Post #: 86
RE: FITE 2 - 8/3/2019 1:49:41 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Nobody asked you anything, you showed up and started telling them that things are wrong and according to you how they should be done. This is not your scenario, let them design it as they want. Even after they tell you why things are as they are you continue to berate them. Meanwhile, you have no design credits and you don't play the scenario, therefore your opinion carries no weight.

Hope your wife gets well soon


Well if giving historic examples to back me is berating...lmao. I guess I could have just said 'because'. But I choose to back up what I say with history. And nobody asked anyone who has commented in this thread anything. And yes, some things are wrong. Some are bugged. And yes I made suggestions and backed them with history. And no it's not my scenario no anyone's scenario who has commented in this thread. The engineers who design most of the stuff you use in life get no credits but know exactly how things work. What's your point? And how do you know what I do? I'm playing two games of FitE2 and I've also looked at it turn by turn for all of 1941. You talk about things that you have no knowledge of. So, stop 'berating' me for things you know absolutely nothing about.

Thanks about the wife. She appreciates it.


_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)
Post #: 87
RE: FITE 2 - 8/3/2019 5:12:29 PM   
gliz2

 

Posts: 454
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Status: offline 		Sorry laddie but you got it wrong. On 21 Jun 1941 there were 355 operational Ju-52/3m (plus over 100 in reserve) organized in 9 KGr. They could easily transport over 6.000 paras. IT was Hitler's (one of many) stupid decision that prevented the larger scale paradrops.

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Post #: 88
RE: FITE 2 - 8/3/2019 5:20:02 PM   
gliz2

 

Posts: 454
Joined: 2/20/2016
Status: offline 		This obsessive and absurd historical bollocks. Perfect excuse for not doing more work :P

Seriously the very moment a player moves a chit the historical events go to hell. And you are illogical in your approach. You give player options on offensive chits or to play without partisants - which is completely unrealistic.

Take a simply thing: Hitler declaring war on USA. IT did happened only because of circumstances. What if the Germans have captured Moskau in November? What would be the point of Hitler pressuring on Japanese? Maybe the Japanese would postpone their attack? But you stick to the background story like a drowning man to a razor. IT makes no sense. This all should be random. I know it is almost an impossible task. I'm just pointing the obvious. Historical DOES NOT EQUAL as it did happen. It means as it might have happened. Big difference.

I love the scenario - keep up the good work.

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Post #: 89
RE: FITE 2 - 8/3/2019 5:30:06 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
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From: east coast, usa
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quote:

I'm playing two games of FitE2 and I've also looked at it turn by turn for all of 1941. You talk about things that you have no knowledge of.

Well if you are, then hoorah and since you are so experienced in scenario design you can easily change it to the way you want it, so why bother the scenario designer's ? If you think there is a mistake or an oversight then sure, state it. But to go on and on about how they have to do it your way is ridiculous.

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 90
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