RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers

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RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/31/2019 2:12:07 PM

Zap

Posts: 3639
Joined: 12/6/2004
From: LAS VEGAS TAKE A CHANCE
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine
...80-90% of those crying and moaning about the delay...

Actually, I don't recall anyone "crying and moaning" about the delay--people are crying and moaning about the complete lack of communication. Big difference.

What difference does it make? You aren't getting it any quicker and I assume they have nothing material to say right now. Why so impatient? How old are you people? Just sit back and wait. There are plenty of other games to play right now, board and computer.

And I'm following another design currently that might not be a successor to Steel Panthers, it might actually be better and closer to why I wanted to play Steel Panthers in the first place.

It might and it might not. But you still have to wait for that game. If you can be patient for that any reason you can't be patient for steel tigers?

And if Steel Tigers isn't essentially Steel Panthers with fresh paint, they could well just snub it out of hand. And who knows, maybe that's why we don't have this game called Steel Tigers. Because they can't actually replace Steel Panthers.

Your negative thought "maybe it'll be this or maybe it won't be that" has no factual basis. For no reason, your worrying about something unknown and creating your own nightmares.

If the game is good enough people will buy it and play it regardless if you or I are six feet under. Seriously, MrsWargamer the drama is a bit much.

(in reply to MrsWargamer)

Post #: 331

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/31/2019 2:17:00 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

As a separate discussion, it is absolutely an art rather than a science to decide when to announce a game and how much to say. We normally do wait now until a game is quite far along before even beginning to discuss it. In the case of Steel Tigers, we instead announced it right as development started, which is unusual for us but the demand for it was such that we did not want to remain completely silent. The announcement had no estimate of development time or release date. It was simply a heads up that "Hey, we are going to do this". I know folks bring their own assumptions with them when reading such things, but we have been careful not to promise any particular timeline and to just periodically confirm that it is in the works and is a huge project for us. Therefore while I understand that waiting can generate negative emotions, I can't see a reason to say "I will no longer even look at it even when it's ready", but your mileage may vary.

We will not be releasing any additional information until the game is getting close to release precisely because we don't want to get you too excited and then have you wait for a long time. The benchmarks to look for are the recruitment of public beta testers and the release of significant gameplay information and screenshots. At those points you will know that the game is in the final stretch.

Regards,

- Erik

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(in reply to Hexagon)

Post #: 332

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/31/2019 2:22:10 PM

Zap

Posts: 3639
Joined: 12/6/2004
From: LAS VEGAS TAKE A CHANCE
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Thank you Eric, finally we can put this thread to bed.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 333

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/31/2019 2:36:58 PM

Hexagon

Posts: 1133
Joined: 6/14/2009
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Everybody has his own opinion, for me i simple dont see any motive to move ST from "vaporware area".

Age made me trust from 0 to nothing in words and only 50% in things i can see with my own eyes and well, 4 years of nothing receive from me the same.

PD: i have half interest and half

in a game showing videos, images... in general showing something...

< Message edited by Hexagon -- 7/31/2019 2:38:13 PM >

(in reply to Zap)

Post #: 334

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/31/2019 3:16:32 PM

Capitaine

Posts: 1043
Joined: 1/15/2002
Status: offline

2by3 understand all this I'm certain. They are doing what they're doing (or not doing) for a reason. If it annoys you, write the game off for now, like many are resorting to. When it comes out, you can be pleasantly surprised. Or not. It's not that big of a deal. It'll come out when it's ready. I don't know what the problem is. Consider it vaporware for now if you like. It doesn't matter. They aren't asking for pre-orders.

(in reply to Hexagon)

Post #: 335

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/31/2019 4:45:47 PM

MrsWargamer

Posts: 1655
Joined: 6/18/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine
...80-90% of those crying and moaning about the delay...

Actually, I don't recall anyone "crying and moaning" about the delay--people are crying and moaning about the complete lack of communication. Big difference.

What difference does it make? You aren't getting it any quicker and I assume they have nothing material to say right now. Why so impatient? How old are you people? Just sit back and wait. There are plenty of other games to play right now, board and computer.

And I'm following another design currently that might not be a successor to Steel Panthers, it might actually be better and closer to why I wanted to play Steel Panthers in the first place.

It might and it might not. But you still have to wait for that game. If you can be patient for that any reason you can't be patient for steel tigers?

And if Steel Tigers isn't essentially Steel Panthers with fresh paint, they could well just snub it out of hand. And who knows, maybe that's why we don't have this game called Steel Tigers. Because they can't actually replace Steel Panthers.

Your negative thought "maybe it'll be this or maybe it won't be that" has no factual basis. For no reason, your worrying about something unknown and creating your own nightmares.

If the game is good enough people will buy it and play it regardless if you or I are six feet under. Seriously, MrsWargamer the drama is a bit much.

No factual basis? Really Zap? I have four years of silence as my basis point.
I'm not 'worrying' that's you putting words in my mouth.
I've already made my choice. Said it earlier. I've jumped ship. I'm following another title. 2by3 has already lost my sale. Unsure they care. But that's the point eh. No one has a clue if they care at all.
I wouldn't count on imaginary people to buy this game in say 2 years time. 2 years in game design is kinda a very long time.

Drama? hardly. I'd need to care to be dramatic. I'm here only as a wargamer discussing a topic. I have no vested interest.

_____________________________

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Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
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Build models 20% of the time
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Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

(in reply to Zap)

Post #: 336

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/31/2019 4:52:48 PM

MrsWargamer

Posts: 1655
Joined: 6/18/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

As a separate discussion, it is absolutely an art rather than a science to decide when to announce a game and how much to say. We normally do wait now until a game is quite far along before even beginning to discuss it. In the case of Steel Tigers, we instead announced it right as development started, which is unusual for us but the demand for it was such that we did not want to remain completely silent. The announcement had no estimate of development time or release date. It was simply a heads up that "Hey, we are going to do this". I know folks bring their own assumptions with them when reading such things, but we have been careful not to promise any particular timeline and to just periodically confirm that it is in the works and is a huge project for us. Therefore while I understand that waiting can generate negative emotions, I can't see a reason to say "I will no longer even look at it even when it's ready", but your mileage may vary.

We will not be releasing any additional information until the game is getting close to release precisely because we don't want to get you too excited and then have you wait for a long time. The benchmarks to look for are the recruitment of public beta testers and the release of significant gameplay information and screenshots. At those points you will know that the game is in the final stretch.

Regards,

- Erik

Really Erik?
This game is a one of instance to my knowledge. I can't think of another title being treated this way by its devs.
Their actions are ONLY doing harm. There is NO good being accomplished by the silence.
No one is demanding screenshots. No one is demanding any form of detail about the game at all.
All we are asking is for one of the 3 to come, say hello, talk to us a few moments.
At least that's all I'm asking.

I HAVE dumped games based on NOT liking the creators in the past.
Yep, I've refused to buy something even if it was worth something, all based on my not liking the source.
I'm no one's assured cash source.
There's a well known site that markets wargames I won't honour with my money all because I don't like how they do business.

_____________________________

Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 337

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/31/2019 4:53:30 PM

MrsWargamer

Posts: 1655
Joined: 6/18/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

Thank you Eric, finally we can put this thread to bed.

Believe it when I see it :)
No rules have been broken, or even bent.

_____________________________

Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

(in reply to Zap)

Post #: 338

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/31/2019 5:03:33 PM

solops

Posts: 814
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Central Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

Thank you Eric, finally we can put this thread to bed.

Believe it when I see it :)
No rules have been broken, or even bent.

+1
Thread is informative.

< Message edited by solops -- 7/31/2019 5:04:16 PM >

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(in reply to MrsWargamer)

Post #: 339

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/31/2019 5:12:41 PM

Zovs

Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
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Dear Mrs Wargamer

quote:

There's a well known site that markets wargames I won't honour with my money all because I don't like how they do business.

Knowing your basic history, can I venture a guess if that publisher is the infamous Critical Hit?

I had some bad dealings with CH, I purchased Omaha West and East for $299 when it first came out, and then kept updating it, now they are like $129 a piece. Plus all the versions and re-packaging and reselling of regurgitated products.

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Post #: 340

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/31/2019 5:15:13 PM

Challerain

Posts: 270
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From: Mansfield, Texas
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Lots of first world problems in this thread.....

(in reply to Zovs)

Post #: 341

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/31/2019 5:17:49 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Challerain
Lots of first world problems in this thread.....

And you were expecting what exactly on a forum about wargames?

< Message edited by 76mm -- 7/31/2019 5:18:20 PM >

(in reply to Challerain)

Post #: 342

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/31/2019 5:33:09 PM

Kuokkanen

Posts: 3545
Joined: 4/2/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

It happens all the time, you arrive to the market after another similar product got there first, and often it's too late. Happens with movies all the time.

When it comes to war games, excellent case in point is Jagged Alliance which came available couple months after UFO: Enemy Unknown.

Ah, Jagged Alliance and UFO:Whatever are not War Games. They sound like Sci-Fi or Fantasy Games and hence they are not War Games.

A game can have more than 1 tag. Fantasy General and Star General are both war games regardless of what else they sound. Jagged Alliance is neither fantasy nor sci-fi, and how the Hell did you connect it with either?

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(in reply to Zovs)

Post #: 343

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/31/2019 6:06:14 PM

Zovs

Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

It happens all the time, you arrive to the market after another similar product got there first, and often it's too late. Happens with movies all the time.

When it comes to war games, excellent case in point is Jagged Alliance which came available couple months after UFO: Enemy Unknown.

Ah, Jagged Alliance and UFO:Whatever are not War Games. They sound like Sci-Fi or Fantasy Games and hence they are not War Games.

A game can have more than 1 tag. Fantasy General and Star General are both war games regardless of what else they sound. Jagged Alliance is neither fantasy nor sci-fi, and how the Hell did you connect it with either?

A wargame is a type of strategy game that simulates warfare realistically, as opposed to abstract strategy games such as chess. Wargames may be miniature figurines on a tabletop, board games or video games. They typically use a map that depicts various battlefield terrain features such as woods, hills, fields and streams, with a grid or location system superimposed over this to regulate the movement and positions of the games' pieces, each of which represents a specific military formation, such as an infantry brigade or artillery battery. Many wargames recreate specific historic battles, and can cover either whole wars, or any campaigns, battles, or lower-level engagements within them. Many simulate land combat, but there are wargames for naval and air combat as well.

Generally, events based on live action (people actually performing simulated combat activities) are not considered wargames. Some writers may refer to a military's field training exercises as "live wargames", but certain institutions such as the US Navy do not accept this.[1] Likewise, activities like paintball are sports rather than wargames.

Modern wargaming was invented in Prussia around the turn of the 19th-century, and eventually the Prussian military adopted wargames as a way of training their officers and developing doctrine. After Prussia defeated France in the Franco-Prussian War, wargaming was widely adopted in other countries as both a tool for training and research by military officers and for leisure by military enthusiasts.

_____________________________

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Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to Kuokkanen)

Post #: 344

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/31/2019 6:09:33 PM

Hexagon

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Well, for me a wargames is focused in WAR, what kind of war??? well, WAR=/=WWII even WAR=/=human historical conflicts between nations, i dont limitt WAR to something based in historical conflicts.

For me is all about take tactical-operational-strategic decisions that affect a conflict solved using weapons... maybe this is the only motive why i dont consider "Theme hospital" a wargame even when blood is present

"Lots of first world problems in this thread..... " well, if you want fight agaisnt climatic problems, you want find global peace or you want sell your perfect political model to create your utopia maybe you are not in the correct forum... you know, this is a forum in a wargaming web... every time i read this phrase i only can think in a guy wearing T-shirt of X team in the Y team area of the stadium saying why Y team sucks... if you dont like general threads because are not serious for you simple dont read them.

< Message edited by Hexagon -- 7/31/2019 6:43:21 PM >

(in reply to Kuokkanen)

Post #: 345

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/31/2019 6:54:11 PM

MrsWargamer

Posts: 1655
Joined: 6/18/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Dear Mrs Wargamer

quote:

There's a well known site that markets wargames I won't honour with my money all because I don't like how they do business.

Knowing your basic history, can I venture a guess if that publisher is the infamous Critical Hit?

I had some bad dealings with CH, I purchased Omaha West and East for $299 when it first came out, and then kept updating it, now they are like $129 a piece. Plus all the versions and re-packaging and reselling of regurgitated products.

Said it that way, as our host prefers us to limit ourselves. But inasmuch as I don't like CH, it was not them I was referring to. Nice try though :)

_____________________________

Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

(in reply to Zovs)

Post #: 346

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/31/2019 6:55:34 PM

MrsWargamer

Posts: 1655
Joined: 6/18/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Challerain

Lots of first world problems in this thread.....

Nah, a first world problem would be me bitching about not having enough space for all my Barbies and Legos and tank models :)

_____________________________

Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

(in reply to Challerain)

Post #: 347

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/31/2019 7:12:25 PM

Hexagon

Posts: 1133
Joined: 6/14/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Challerain

Lots of first world problems in this thread.....

Nah, a first world problem would be me bitching about not having enough space for all my Barbies and Legos and tank models :)

We all know that solution to this is use MOTHER command... is like nuclear war but set in your "trash"... of course Barbie survive because she has SHOES!!!

(in reply to MrsWargamer)

Post #: 348

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/31/2019 7:18:57 PM

tevans

Posts: 73
Joined: 6/16/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine
...80-90% of those crying and moaning about the delay...

Actually, I don't recall anyone "crying and moaning" about the delay--people are crying and moaning about the complete lack of communication. Big difference.

What difference does it make? You aren't getting it any quicker and I assume they have nothing material to say right now. Why so impatient? How old are you people? Just sit back and wait. There are plenty of other games to play right now, board and computer.

Makes a lot of difference to me. If it were released today I wouldn't buy it. I said what I had to say and moved on from Steel Tigers. Like I said it doesn't make much sense to speak of or announce something that isn't even close to being ready for release. Has it really been four years? That's pretty bad.

(in reply to Capitaine)

Post #: 349

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/31/2019 8:35:36 PM

rico21

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350 posts, + of 50000 views, please developers, stop your work now and do the game now, your success is assured.

(in reply to marcpennington)

Post #: 350

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/31/2019 11:04:44 PM

JReb

Posts: 459
Joined: 9/18/2002
Status: offline

Four years with no communication with your target audience is pretty weak and bad optics.

Like somebody else said, we ain't getting any younger and there aren't a lot of 20-somethings lining up to play these types of games so, like the WW2 generation, we are getting fewer every day. We have seen some of our own forum members pass away in the last 10 years or so, may they all RIP.

If 2x3 is working on WITE2 then that is puzzling as well because I don't see any huge demand for WITE2 but tons of interest in Steel Tigers. Seems like a better chance at more sales would be with ST.

Lastly, saying the game is being worked on is a tad vague. That could mean 5 man-hours a week or 500 man-hours a week, who knows.

I don't want to be completely blind and senile by the time it is released! I'm already half way there!

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Post #: 351

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 7/31/2019 11:23:12 PM

Zap

Posts: 3639
Joined: 12/6/2004
From: LAS VEGAS TAKE A CHANCE
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

Thank you Eric, finally we can put this thread to bed.

Believe it when I see it :)
No rules have been broken, or even bent.

Put to bed, as in, the complete answer was given "communication" the goal of the OP realized. But some want to continue it on with no more new input. I never mentioned locking the thread I thought people could except what the desicion made and move on.
And yes, you use descriptions that do exaggerate the discussion to emphasize how you feel about it. I know that's not how you see it but that's what I read. I understand you have deep feelings about the game. You do realize your not the only one who plays SP still. I do as well.
You do not share my opinion and that's okay too but its good to point out that Eric's answer was given and still some make the choice so early on to not purchase. Well, forgive me, if I think yours and others doesn't seem to be a reasonable response in light of the decision made regards communicating about the game. .
Feel free to keep discussing

< Message edited by Zap -- 7/31/2019 11:24:19 PM >

(in reply to MrsWargamer)

Post #: 352

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 8/1/2019 12:48:16 AM

MrsWargamer

Posts: 1655
Joined: 6/18/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

Thank you Eric, finally we can put this thread to bed.

Believe it when I see it :)
No rules have been broken, or even bent.

Put to bed, as in, the complete answer was given "communication" the goal of the OP realized. But some want to continue it on with no more new input. I never mentioned locking the thread I thought people could except what the desicion made and move on.
And yes, you use descriptions that do exaggerate the discussion to emphasize how you feel about it. I know that's not how you see it but that's what I read. I understand you have deep feelings about the game. You do realize your not the only one who plays SP still. I do as well.
You do not share my opinion and that's okay too but its good to point out that Eric's answer was given and still some make the choice so early on to not purchase. Well, forgive me, if I think yours and others doesn't seem to be a reasonable response in light of the decision made regards communicating about the game. .
Feel free to keep discussing

What can I say. I started a thread to PRAISE our hosts. And got rudely told to shut up when I didn't wish the thread stolen for an unrelated discussion about something not even close to relevant.

"Put to bed" is not the same as requesting a lock. That's solely your take on it.

You don't think I and others are being reasonable. I think that's ludicrous.
You claim I exaggerate, I disagree.

As for continuing to discuss, well as long as others wish to discuss, I suppose I might.

_____________________________

Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

(in reply to Zap)

Post #: 353

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 8/1/2019 1:26:55 AM

Zap

Posts: 3639
Joined: 12/6/2004
From: LAS VEGAS TAKE A CHANCE
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

Thank you Eric, finally we can put this thread to bed.

Believe it when I see it :)
No rules have been broken, or even bent.

Put to bed, as in, the complete answer was given "communication" the goal of the OP realized. But some want to continue it on with no more new input. I never mentioned locking the thread I thought people could except what the desicion made and move on.
And yes, you use descriptions that do exaggerate the discussion to emphasize how you feel about it. I know that's not how you see it but that's what I read. I understand you have deep feelings about the game. You do realize your not the only one who plays SP still. I do as well.
You do not share my opinion and that's okay too but its good to point out that Eric's answer was given and still some make the choice so early on to not purchase. Well, forgive me, if I think yours and others doesn't seem to be a reasonable response in light of the decision made regards communicating about the game. .
Feel free to keep discussing
[/quote

"Put to bed" is not the same as requesting a lock. That's solely your take on it.

Oh boy! defining my words to mean something completely different from what i stated. Now you know my thoughts do you? good grief! how unreasonable is that!

(in reply to MrsWargamer)

Post #: 354

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 8/1/2019 2:42:03 AM

operating

Posts: 3158
Joined: 1/19/2013
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I'm not a fan of Steel Tigers, however I could be later, what I do like about threads like this is: "HOPE" Hope for something you, me, and others really want...

(in reply to Zap)

Post #: 355

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 8/1/2019 3:13:00 AM

Rusty1961

Posts: 1219
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline

Uh. How about something new instead of constant rehashes of games 35 years old? I love Steel Panthers, but how old is it?Remember "Kampfgruppe" from 1985? SP came from that.

How many more "Panzer General X" must we play? Close Combat XX?

The hobby is stagnating. Can't you see this?

(in reply to marcpennington)

Post #: 356

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 8/1/2019 3:19:04 AM

RangerJoe

Posts: 13450
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From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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Then write a new game. You should be able to do it in an afternoon or so.

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Post #: 357

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 8/1/2019 3:28:04 AM

Infierno

Posts: 102
Joined: 4/30/2017
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

The hobby is stagnating. Can't you see this?

I dunno, I thought Armored Brigade was pretty refreshing.

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If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?

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Post #: 358

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 8/1/2019 7:54:50 AM

DonCzirr

Posts: 464
Joined: 10/3/2014
Status: offline

Can we have BA3 instead ? That would surely be a more light hearted subject

I love hash ....

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Man schl�gt jemanden mit der Faust und nicht mit gespreizten Fingern !

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Post #: 359

RE: 2by3 to publish Steel Tigers - 8/1/2019 9:25:32 AM

Red2112

Posts: 1355
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline

I don�t think the problem is 2by3 and "Wheels of Steel". The problem is most us us are getting OLD, darn it!!!

But we still ROCK!

I was just 16 then...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ev3G18Hr_A

So yeah I agree with Operating�s comment above.

Red

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< Message edited by Red2112 -- 8/1/2019 9:35:15 AM >

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Post #: 360