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RE: 2x3+ 007 End - 8/14/2019 5:36:36 PM   
Beria


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RE: 2x3+ 007 End - 8/15/2019 10:36:49 AM   
Beria


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RE: 2x3+ 007 End - 8/15/2019 10:45:51 AM   
Beria


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2x3+ 008 - 8/15/2019 10:49:52 AM   
Telemecus


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< Message edited by Telemecus -- 8/15/2019 11:03:49 AM >

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2x3+ 008 Axis Team Allocations - 8/15/2019 10:51:52 AM   
Telemecus


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< Message edited by Telemecus -- 8/15/2019 10:54:14 AM >

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2x3+ 008 Axis Finland - 8/15/2019 10:54:00 AM   
Telemecus


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2x3+ 008 Axis Leningrad - 8/15/2019 11:00:21 AM   
Telemecus


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< Message edited by Telemecus -- 8/15/2019 11:03:22 AM >

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2x3+ 008 Axis North - 8/15/2019 11:02:15 AM   
Telemecus


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< Message edited by Telemecus -- 8/15/2019 11:03:09 AM >

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RE: 2x3+ 008 Axis North - 8/15/2019 2:35:49 PM   
Crackaces


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Status: offline 		This is sort of a neat contest in the North at this point with Each side isolating the other. “You isolate me .. well I save my guys and isolate you!” Unfortunately the German’s are working on Osinovets and infantry units continue to gather at critical points sealing the fate of Leningrad. But for now things look precarious iousl for the Germans

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RE: 2x3+ 008 Axis Leningrad - 8/15/2019 2:43:30 PM   
xhoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

T008 Axis Leningrad




It is really a shame to see how poorly the Soviets have defended Osinovets. Considering that it is one of the most vital hexes to hold Leningrad the STAVKA and Air Command have really messed up here. Crazy to see German bombing runs unopposed

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RE: 2x3+ 008 Axis Leningrad - 8/15/2019 3:51:53 PM   
Beria


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
T008 Axis Leningrad

It is really a shame to see how poorly the Soviets have defended Osinovets. Considering that it is one of the most vital hexes to hold Leningrad the STAVKA and Air Command have really messed up here. Crazy to see German bombing runs unopposed

Reading through the team emails it looks like the air commander was trying to do an ink blot strategy. Start of from just one place where they could have absolute air superiority and gradually build out from there. It was starting to look like they were succeeding around Moscow.

There could be something in the ink blot strategy - but they should have started it in Leningrad not Moscow.


< Message edited by Beria -- 8/15/2019 3:52:15 PM >

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RE: 2x3+ 008 Axis Leningrad - 8/15/2019 4:11:04 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Beria
quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
T008 Axis Leningrad

It is really a shame to see how poorly the Soviets have defended Osinovets. Considering that it is one of the most vital hexes to hold Leningrad the STAVKA and Air Command have really messed up here. Crazy to see German bombing runs unopposed

Reading through the team emails it looks like the air commander was trying to do an ink blot strategy. Start of from just one place where they could have absolute air superiority and gradually build out from there. It was starting to look like they were succeeding around Moscow.

There could be something in the ink blot strategy - but they should have started it in Leningrad not Moscow.


Another possible candidate would have been an inkblot to take on the Finnish air force along where the Luftwaffe could not fly and build up wins and kills in an unbalanced fight there. But agreed when Osinovets was obviously being targetted that should have been the inkblot of fighter defence.

I would have liked to see where this would have gone to as well. You could see the air space over Moscow getting very difficult. But with the Soviet air commander joining and now leaving the air strategy changed to a third one this summer. Indeed going back to each ground commander in charge meant they had gone through seven air strategies by now. So all the intitial pain of sticking to a plan was taken without ever seeing if the final pay off was there. Nothing seems to have been done to buy in the team to any one strategy - so instead you had a repeated rehashing of the discussion of what the air strategy should be almost every turn without even agreeing to one of them.

That said if you had an ink blot strategy why send all those biplanes to Leningrad at all? They still got killed without doing anything to stop the bombing. At the very least I think the air doctrine should not be so high as 50% required to fly as that mostly just grounds the ready air force you could have. But I know I have made that point a lot elsewhere.

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RE: 2x3+ 008 Axis North - 8/15/2019 4:21:15 PM   
Telemecus


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2x3+ 008 Axis Centre - 8/15/2019 5:59:21 PM   
Telemecus


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RE: 2x3+ 008 Axis Centre - 8/15/2019 11:02:41 PM   
Seminole


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Status: offline 		Do jumps at this point require HQBUs, or are you creating these plunges on regular supply?

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RE: 2x3+ 008 Axis Centre - 8/16/2019 11:53:09 AM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole
Do jumps at this point require HQBUs, or are you creating these plunges on regular supply?


At the moment pretty much every turn there is at least one Panzer corps doing an HQBU and sometimes more. They are marked in the screenshots - for example in the centre on turn 8 you will see XXXIX Panzer corps did one. The Axis team were using the then latest version of the game which was 11.01 but the game had started under 1.11.00 - so the costs of an HQBU were much lower than they are now.

Whether they require them is a debateable point. Some would say careful positioning of HQs and management with rotations of motorised units, plus better leaders and the like, would mean you can get supply results which are just as good as HQ Build Ups. It certainly takes a lot more management to do so.

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2x3+ 008 Axis Pripyat - 8/16/2019 12:05:18 PM   
Telemecus


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RE: 2x3+ 008 Axis Pripyat - 8/16/2019 2:56:50 PM   
joelmar


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quote:


ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Whether they require them is a debateable point. Some would say careful positioning of HQs and management with rotations of motorised units, plus better leaders and the like, would mean you can get supply results which are just as good as HQ Build Ups. It certainly takes a lot more management to do so.


I agree that it is very debatable. I know for sure that I did more HQBU's than I should have in my current game. In retrospect, I found that the cost of AP's and trucks is too prohibitive for the benefits and because of that, for a HQBU to be effective nowadays, you need to have the right conditions. My new rule of thumb is I do it only if I am far from the railhead, I have good infantry support and there is something very clear to be gained from it. I prefer to let rest some motorized for a turn (which you have to do anyway to make an effective HQBU), thus accumulating a bit of supplies at no extra cost. The saved AP's go for leaders update and the likes.

That said, the last 2 HQBU's I made were spot on, they were coordinated perfectly and between them brought me the result I was looking for, so still a nice tool in the box when used correctly.

quote:


ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Another possible candidate would have been an inkblot to take on the Finnish air force along where the Luftwaffe could not fly and build up wins and kills in an unbalanced fight there.


Wouldn't that Soviet strategy depend on the Axis willingness to fight for the air up there? I mean, if the Finns send all their airbases to the west out of reach, or to the NR, what would then be the advantage for the Soviets to keep a sizable chunk of their air force at the borders of Finland? Strategic bombing maybe? But even that wouldn't amount to much? Helsinki is the only real target in fighter unmbrella and can be filled to the brink with AA.



< Message edited by joelmar -- 8/16/2019 3:21:35 PM >

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RE: 2x3+ 008 Axis Pripyat - 8/16/2019 3:52:40 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joelmar
quote:


ORIGINAL: Telemecus

Another possible candidate would have been an inkblot to take on the Finnish air force along where the Luftwaffe could not fly and build up wins and kills in an unbalanced fight there.


Wouldn't that Soviet strategy depend on the Axis willingness to fight for the air up there? I mean, if the Finns send all their airbases to the west out of reach, or to the NR, what would then be the advantage for the Soviets to keep a sizable chunk of their air force at the borders of Finland? Strategic bombing maybe? But even that wouldn't amount to much? Helsinki is the only real target in fighter unmbrella and can be filled to the brink with AA.


At least for four turns, and in some cases longer, the Finnish airgroups and airbases are frozen and are in the area the Luftwaffe cannot fly in. So the Finns literally cannot run.

But I think the Finns do want air support in Karelia in 1941 - especially if the Russians try to build a hard defence line on the Janisjarvi. It can be tough enough for the Finns to get through any kind of higher fortification level, let alone do it without air support too.

If the Finns did do a running air strategy though here is what I would do
i) Ground bomb every single ground unit including HQs twice with the maximum 14 bomber groups each time - no need to go through the NR, their XP/morale will be through the roof with all the wins they get from the unopposed ground bombing alone.
ii) Bomb every single Finnish village continuosly - never mind running short of manpower end of 1941 there will not be much of a Finnish army left at all with no replacements

This might not train up the fighters - but will get you a great tactical bomber force pretty quickly.

If the Finnish air force moved to the west and is alone you can still fighter sweep it (unless they cap the air group ranges) and you have plenty of juicy bombing targets outside of Helsinki.


In the 8MP team game we were so worried about bombing of the Finnish air force on turn 1 we had an German airbase ready for shipping to west Finland on turn 2. It would have been enough to deter Soviet air action there - but would have meant fewer German fighters and one less German airbase on the main front, but in a place where the Germans themselves were prohibited from supporting the Finnish front lines. So still a win.

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< Message edited by Telemecus -- 8/16/2019 4:19:41 PM >

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RE: 2x3+ 008 Axis Pripyat - 8/16/2019 4:02:59 PM   
joelmar


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quote:


ORIGINAL: Telemecus

...no need to go through the NR, their XP/morale will be through the roof with all the wins they get from the unopposed ground bombing alone.


Ok thanks for the explanation, for farming morale and experience of the bomber groups, yes, I understand the idea. Also, I wasn't aware that the Finns airbases would be frozen even if attacked and could not even be sent to NR.

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2x3+ 008 Axis South - 8/16/2019 5:41:20 PM   
Telemecus


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< Message edited by Telemecus -- 8/16/2019 5:44:52 PM >

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2x3+ 008 Axis South Ukraine - 8/16/2019 5:47:17 PM   
Telemecus


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RE: 2x3+ 008 Axis South Ukraine - 8/16/2019 6:14:14 PM   
joelmar


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Status: offline 		Ouch, that was a killer stroke!

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RE: 2x3+ 008 Axis South Ukraine - 8/16/2019 7:22:38 PM   
Beria


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Status: offline 		Funny thing is Dnepropetrovsk, Zaporozhye and Leningrad all evacuated - and all in Soviet hands. Instead it was the cities behind them that were not evacuated and are now in Axis hands!

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RE: 2x3+ 008 Axis South Ukraine - 8/17/2019 1:34:53 AM   
Seminole


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joelmar

Ouch, that was a killer stroke!


Empty cities in range of German units is a sin.

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2x3+ 008 Axis Odessa - 8/17/2019 10:30:42 AM   
Telemecus


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Odessa remains a pain in the rear Soviet fortress. And as we are screening it with Rumanian combat troops the Soviets have more opportunities for successful counterattacks. But this turn they leave the city itself ungarrisoned and an opportunity. Some units have just enough movement points to walk in to the city if we can rout a cavalry unit to its south west. But unsually after the attack goes in the Soviet cavalry instead of routing retreats in good order into Odessa. The Plan B attack of Odessa also fails. The Rumanian glory of a sneak attack to capture the port and leave the entire force in the area isolated is not to be.



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< Message edited by Telemecus -- 8/17/2019 10:31:57 AM >

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2x3+ 008 Axis - 8/17/2019 11:05:32 AM   
Telemecus


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< Message edited by Telemecus -- 8/17/2019 11:07:09 AM >

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2x3+ 008 Soviet Finland - 8/17/2019 1:25:57 PM   
Beria


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2x3+ 008 Soviet North - 8/17/2019 1:29:40 PM   
Beria


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The pocket on the Gulf of Riga is broken in to - but German 3rd Motorised Division retreats eastwards instead? So we attack it another ten times in its new place on the front lines.




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RE: 2x3+ 008 Soviet North - 8/17/2019 4:27:10 PM   
Crackaces


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Status: offline 		The spam attacks go away with the next version, which the Soviets have not upgraded at this point So they get spam ground attacks, but suffer from nerfed flak as compared to the upgrade.

This is the last hurrah for Leningrad as next turn the Germans begin to strangle Roko's forces.

The Finns advance one hex forward at a time. This front is expensive in terms of Manpower, but soon .. very soon there will be a breakout.

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