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RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/27/2019 12:20:03 PM   
HansBolter


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Status: offline 		As long as your opponent doesn't make an extreme SoPac push for Fiji it should become one of your minor theater hubs allowing it to become a working waypoint.

Once you start getting Liberty ships, their 16k endurance allows plotted round trips with waypoints, making it possible to set up Continuous Supply Task Forces for all of SoPac.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 8/27/2019 12:22:34 PM >

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Post #: 31
RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/27/2019 1:35:48 PM   
Orm


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Status: offline 		I have a thought.

Australia is in just the right place. If it were in any other place, then it wouldn't be Australia.

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Post #: 32
RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/27/2019 4:30:36 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

I have a thought.

Australia is in just the right place. If it were in any other place, then it wouldn't be Australia.

Are you suggesting that this is all the more reason to move it?

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 33
RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/27/2019 5:22:42 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

I have a thought.

Australia is in just the right place. If it were in any other place, then it wouldn't be Australia.

Are you suggesting that this is all the more reason to move it?

You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment.

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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

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Post #: 34
RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/27/2019 5:37:11 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

I have a thought.

Australia is in just the right place. If it were in any other place, then it wouldn't be Australia.

Are you suggesting that this is all the more reason to move it?

You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment.

If Australia is moved they should gets the firm that did Wheeling, West Virginia.

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 35
RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/27/2019 6:14:51 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
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Status: offline 		At least they don't normally have that delightful stuff called Lutefisk there but they do have pasties!

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Post #: 36
RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/27/2019 6:22:56 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

At least they don't normally have that delightful stuff called Lutefisk there but they do have pasties!

Would Orm be Mro if Australia moved north?

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Post #: 37
RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/28/2019 1:01:11 PM   
Macclan5


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Status: offline 		Would it be possible to move parts of Australia first ?

I think what I have seen of Perth (family and friends photos - not been there myself sadly) would recommend itself as an immediate candidate to join the norther hemisphere.

In fact Canada would love to adopt it outright - thereby having another of 'one of the most beautiful spots on earth' added to its list of attributes - and further shutting up some of the annoying Vancouver boosters

However the parts with all those snakes / spiders / sea crocodiles... mehh .... let them continue to migrate along at 3cm per year.



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Post #: 38
RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/28/2019 1:39:29 PM   
jdsrae


Posts: 2716
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From: Gandangara Country
Status: offline 		Bad news, Perth has got snakes too...
http://www.whatsnakeisthat.com.au/category/region/western-aust/perth/
Good news, not all of them are extremely deadly. Some are rated only mildly deadly, and a few are cuddly pythons.


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Post #: 39
RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/28/2019 2:13:53 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
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Status: offline 		Vancouver is nice, especially the rock garden. Banff is beautiful . . .


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Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 40
RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/28/2019 6:17:55 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

Bad news, Perth has got snakes too...
http://www.whatsnakeisthat.com.au/category/region/western-aust/perth/
Good news, not all of them are extremely deadly. Some are rated only mildly deadly, and a few are cuddly pythons.


Yeah, you guys 'Down Under' have a plethora of poisonous critters. Including the Platypus. Who knew?


_____________________________

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In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

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Post #: 41
RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/28/2019 6:23:07 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

Bad news, Perth has got snakes too...
http://www.whatsnakeisthat.com.au/category/region/western-aust/perth/
Good news, not all of them are extremely deadly. Some are rated only mildly deadly, and a few are cuddly pythons.


Yeah, you guys 'Down Under' have a plethora of poisonous critters. Including the Platypus. Who knew?

warspite1

Where's Perry?


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Post #: 42
RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/28/2019 6:27:29 PM   
rustysi


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From: LI, NY
Status: offline 		Had to look that one up, as I wasn't familiar with the reference. At any rate who knows? One could also ask, where's Waldo? Although that's not exactly pertinent to this conversation.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 43
RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/28/2019 6:33:50 PM   
Orm


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Status: offline 		Indeed. The relevant question is; where is Kidô Butai?

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Post #: 44
RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/28/2019 6:37:10 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
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Status: offline 		Not WRT this thread.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 45
RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/28/2019 6:42:04 PM   
Orm


Posts: 22154
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: offline 		I certainly claim that it relevant. Should I ship oil, and fuel, to Australia from the West Coast. Or should I route it from East Coast via Africa. If the main Japanese carrier fleet might threaten one of the routes then that surely has some relevance.

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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

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Post #: 46
RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/28/2019 6:43:59 PM   
Zorch

 

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Status: offline 		If Australia turned sideways it would just fit between Japan and thew Philippines. Think of it! The Outback right next to Tokyo!

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RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/28/2019 6:54:03 PM   
Moltrey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Good advice from all. +1 on the last two posts.

I always like making NZ a hub for SoPac.

AS RJ points out you need oil for the refineries. Many players would eschew the effort and focus on fuel since it is the end product you need for the HI and the navy. I try to do like RJ and get oil there, especially before the tapline of both commodities from the DEI is cut off.

Many players will also eschew getting enough fuel to OZ to run its HI and will counsel turning off the HI. I prefer to leave it on and make the effort to get enough fuel there for both the HI and navy. If you fuel the HI, OZ will produce enough supply to take care of itself, allowing you to push your building SoPac stockpiles elsewhere.

Managing your logistics takes some forethought and planning. Experimentation is the best way to discover what works and what doesn't, giving you a framework for the forethought and the planning. No way to master it but to wade in and muck it up.


A related question for you HansBolter:

So, if the input for Heavy Industry is 20 resources and 2 fuel, wouldn't the Allied player want to import oil for the refineries (as you and others mentioned) but lots of Resources out of the DEI before collapse?

Or perhaps I am off-base and Australia has all the resources it needs as input already? I am confused by this. Twenty sure seems like a hell of a lot of resources to have to come up with for each and every Heavy Industry plant production turn.

Please enlighten me.

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Post #: 48
RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/28/2019 7:21:17 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moltrey


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Good advice from all. +1 on the last two posts.

I always like making NZ a hub for SoPac.

AS RJ points out you need oil for the refineries. Many players would eschew the effort and focus on fuel since it is the end product you need for the HI and the navy. I try to do like RJ and get oil there, especially before the tapline of both commodities from the DEI is cut off.

Many players will also eschew getting enough fuel to OZ to run its HI and will counsel turning off the HI. I prefer to leave it on and make the effort to get enough fuel there for both the HI and navy. If you fuel the HI, OZ will produce enough supply to take care of itself, allowing you to push your building SoPac stockpiles elsewhere.

Managing your logistics takes some forethought and planning. Experimentation is the best way to discover what works and what doesn't, giving you a framework for the forethought and the planning. No way to master it but to wade in and muck it up.


A related question for you HansBolter:

So, if the input for Heavy Industry is 20 resources and 2 fuel, wouldn't the Allied player want to import oil for the refineries (as you and others mentioned) but lots of Resources out of the DEI before collapse?

Or perhaps I am off-base and Australia has all the resources it needs as input already? I am confused by this. Twenty sure seems like a hell of a lot of resources to have to come up with for each and every Heavy Industry plant production turn.

Please enlighten me.



Have never invested the effort in totaling the resource production in OZ and comparing it against the industry need as once fuel is supplied in sufficient quantity, both LI and HI produce without shortages.

This implies that there is plenty of resource production in OZ to handle the local need. However, I have been known to ship the accumulating resources at places like Port Headland that are not connected to the continent wide rail/road network to ports that are connected. Why? Just because I can and it 'feels' realistic to do so.

As and aside, Pearl is short on resources for the LI located there. It can be supplied by establishing a Continuous Supply convoy between Pearl and Hilo, which produces resources. A single xAKL is sufficient for this job.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 8/28/2019 7:23:35 PM >

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Post #: 49
RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/28/2019 8:54:09 PM   
jdsrae


Posts: 2716
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From: Gandangara Country
Status: offline 		It’s on my to do list before playing allies again, to plot the fuel/oil/resources convoy routes needed for each industry region.
I think you do need to ship the Port Hedland resources south otherwise Oz industry will run short. I will check and confirm that assumption one day.
I recall a post from months back that the Oil from Boela and Babo might be enough to meet the crude demand. They might be low on he IJ hit list to both capture and defend.
Last game I ran fuel from LA to Sydney and Middle East to Perth via Cape Town, plus US East Coast to Perth via Cape Town.
You can use the South Atlantic-Indian Ocean Route and not just the Pacific route.
I haven’t yet crunched the numbers to see which route is more efficient, but the KB can’t interdict Perth and Sydney at the same time.


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Post #: 50
RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/28/2019 9:51:33 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
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From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		East Coast to Capetown can't be interdicted so it is a good place to stockpile. The UK constantly gets some supply as well. Since you don't have to worry about fuel on that route, it is a good place for the short ranged xAKs that aren't building up the Hawaiian Islands stockpile. That route is also a good place to use the APs and AKs until they get converted to APAs AND AKAs since they are safe. Then, when you can supply China through Burma, let the supplies be shipped from Cape Town.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/28/2019 10:27:16 PM   
SuluSea


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Status: offline 		Regarding grabbing resources from DEI;

The IJ side has plenty of resources close to the Home Islands on the Korean Peninsula and China, they need fuel for later war industry. Any fuel or Oil taken or damaged industry upon retreat by engineers helps the Allied cause.

Industry in Oz should be helped (As Hans stated) but the primary is the denying the capture of Fuel/Oil.

FWIW, Besides Port Hedland I grab some resources from Tasmania using C/S.

< Message edited by SuluSea -- 8/28/2019 10:29:17 PM >

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RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/28/2019 10:31:42 PM   
Gridley380


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Have never invested the effort in totaling the resource production in OZ and comparing it against the industry need as once fuel is supplied in sufficient quantity, both LI and HI produce without shortages.

This implies that there is plenty of resource production in OZ to handle the local need. However, I have been known to ship the accumulating resources at places like Port Headland that are not connected to the continent wide rail/road network to ports that are connected. Why? Just because I can and it 'feels' realistic to do so.

As and aside, Pearl is short on resources for the LI located there. It can be supplied by establishing a Continuous Supply convoy between Pearl and Hilo, which produces resources. A single xAKL is sufficient for this job.


Obviously can vary by scenario, but I believe the "normal" state of affairs is that the portion of Australia on the rail-net is short of Oil, Fuel, and Resources. Resources are easy to find (as you noted, Port Headland has plenty; Tasmania also has a surplus as does New Caledonia). Fuel can be brought in from various places. Once the DEI falls the only Oil surplus I've found is Aden (which gets a small amount in addition to loads of Fuel).

New Zealand also needs Fuel, though between the islands it is self-sufficient in Resources.

At a rough calculation you need about a dozen BP Type D tankers running continuously to keep Australian industry running once Oil is no longer coming in.

I'm actually crazy enough that I actually turned LA's refineries off at one point to create an oil surplus I could ship to Australia. :-P

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RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/29/2019 12:55:11 AM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gridley380


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Have never invested the effort in totaling the resource production in OZ and comparing it against the industry need as once fuel is supplied in sufficient quantity, both LI and HI produce without shortages.

This implies that there is plenty of resource production in OZ to handle the local need. However, I have been known to ship the accumulating resources at places like Port Headland that are not connected to the continent wide rail/road network to ports that are connected. Why? Just because I can and it 'feels' realistic to do so.

As and aside, Pearl is short on resources for the LI located there. It can be supplied by establishing a Continuous Supply convoy between Pearl and Hilo, which produces resources. A single xAKL is sufficient for this job.


Obviously can vary by scenario, but I believe the "normal" state of affairs is that the portion of Australia on the rail-net is short of Oil, Fuel, and Resources. Resources are easy to find (as you noted, Port Headland has plenty; Tasmania also has a surplus as does New Caledonia). Fuel can be brought in from various places. Once the DEI falls the only Oil surplus I've found is Aden (which gets a small amount in addition to loads of Fuel).

New Zealand also needs Fuel, though between the islands it is self-sufficient in Resources.

At a rough calculation you need about a dozen BP Type D tankers running continuously to keep Australian industry running once Oil is no longer coming in.

I'm actually crazy enough that I actually turned LA's refineries off at one point to create an oil surplus I could ship to Australia. :-P


Very good points all.

The last one is important to many newbies (like I was once) who have to learn the hard way after attempting to load oil at LA.

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RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/29/2019 10:04:19 AM   
Sardaukar


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Status: offline 		Allies do not really need to bother about resources or oil. Fuel and supply mostly.

But some tings are neat, like moving resources from Hilo to Pearl Harbor.

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RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/29/2019 12:58:27 PM   
Gridley380


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Allies do not really need to bother about resources or oil. Fuel and supply mostly.

But some tings are neat, like moving resources from Hilo to Pearl Harbor.


Agreed. The "Eastern USA" base produces more supply and fuel than all the on-map production combined (at least in "safe" areas). But it is fun to use your merchant fleet historically. :-)

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Post #: 56
RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/29/2019 2:05:38 PM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gridley380


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Allies do not really need to bother about resources or oil. Fuel and supply mostly.

But some tings are neat, like moving resources from Hilo to Pearl Harbor.


Agreed. The "Eastern USA" base produces more supply and fuel than all the on-map production combined (at least in "safe" areas). But it is fun to use your merchant fleet historically. :-)



I actually succeeded in bleeding the East Coast dry of supply at one point in my current game. All of the convoys I had running from it to Panama, South Africa and Aden had to be diverted to San Fran instead.

For some reason I could not get it to pull supply back from SanFran where it was accumulating on its own with no stockpiling being set by me.

Once the EC was bled dry SanFran became THE supply source for the entire map.
I typically use LA as my fuel source.

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Hans


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Post #: 57
RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/29/2019 3:07:38 PM   
Squamry

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


Once the EC was bled dry SanFran became THE supply source for the entire map.
I typically use LA as my fuel source.

I also run Sann Diego as supply source. As most supply is gpoing South it reduces the time by a turn or two and tends to be less targeted by subs.

Short range xAKL I have running CS fuel from Eastern USA to CapeTown.

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Post #: 58
RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/29/2019 10:20:33 PM   
Moltrey


Posts: 297
Joined: 4/11/2010
From: Virginia
Status: offline 		I ended up finding an answer last night looking through my emanual in bed.

Page 321 under Design Notes states:

"Australia and New Zealand, like India, generate a resource surplus, but are deficient in oil and fuel. Fuel must be imported from elsewhere, such as Abadan or the United States, to allow its Heavy Industry to operate at full capacity and to provide fuel for shipping in these areas."

So, looks like fuel (or oil when fuel stocks are low) is the way to go as you get the 'two birds' effect.
I do appreciate everyone's input; always lots to learn about how different folks play and think about the game.
Thanks!

(in reply to Squamry)
Post #: 59
RE: Australia is to far away! - 8/30/2019 12:48:24 PM   
Macclan5


Posts: 1065
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gridley380


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Have never invested the effort in totaling the resource production in OZ and comparing it against the industry need as once fuel is supplied in sufficient quantity, both LI and HI produce without shortages.

This implies that there is plenty of resource production in OZ to handle the local need. However, I have been known to ship the accumulating resources at places like Port Headland that are not connected to the continent wide rail/road network to ports that are connected. Why? Just because I can and it 'feels' realistic to do so.

As and aside, Pearl is short on resources for the LI located there. It can be supplied by establishing a Continuous Supply convoy between Pearl and Hilo, which produces resources. A single xAKL is sufficient for this job.


Obviously can vary by scenario, but I believe the "normal" state of affairs is that the portion of Australia on the rail-net is short of Oil, Fuel, and Resources. Resources are easy to find (as you noted, Port Headland has plenty; Tasmania also has a surplus as does New Caledonia). Fuel can be brought in from various places. Once the DEI falls the only Oil surplus I've found is Aden (which gets a small amount in addition to loads of Fuel).

New Zealand also needs Fuel, though between the islands it is self-sufficient in Resources.

At a rough calculation you need about a dozen BP Type D tankers running continuously to keep Australian industry running once Oil is no longer coming in.

I'm actually crazy enough that I actually turned LA's refineries off at one point to create an oil surplus I could ship to Australia. :-P


+2 to both

Like Hans and seemingly others I do attempt to haul oil and resources - mostly because it 'feels' right and / or historical and /or etc

It may not be a priority game mechanic or add much value.

Anecdotally I do think that stuffing oil into Australia does 'smooth out the fuel delivery' schedule. Oil and Resources do not instantly convert they are consumed over time. Depending upon pressures have a nice little oil pool in Australia 'pads the surplus' in Sydney without me having to worry about time delays to a delivery schedule.

Note Oil Mid Game - late 42 - 44

Aden / USA really are the only major sources per see until you reconquer some territories i.e. Burma etc.

However Oil into India flows to Ledo and (in stock games) you usually start with a healthy surplus.

A low value tanker from Aden to India and then 'some tankers to create demand' at (for example) Madras - can assist you plug a little oil into Australia mid game.

The 8800 endurance oilers and KV escorts can make the trip Madras to Perth - so long as you set the right waypoints to bypass IJN spots on the Indian Ocean held islands i.e. Christmas Isle.



< Message edited by Macclan5 -- 8/30/2019 12:49:27 PM >

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A People that values its privileges above it's principles will soon loose both. Dwight D Eisenhower.

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