Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Lovejoy

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

So this officer, a man who did his duty in helping to save passengers, and has a memorial in his hometown of Dalbeattie in Scotland where he is considered a hero, and where at the time the film was made he had close relatives (nephew) still living, has his name trashed for no good reason than making a buck.

Seems similar to what Cy Endfeld did to Private Henry Hook in the movie Zulu. The movie makes him out to be a self-centered drunk malingering in the hospital at Rourke's Drift. The real Henry Hook had been a well-regarded soldier (good-conduct pay and all) and a strict methodist lay-preacher who was a part of the detachment guarding the hospital.

Two of his daughters were present at the UK premiere, and they were so disgusted by it that they walked out of it.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I think it was called something like "The Building", but in Russian. All the dialogue was Russian or German with subtitles IIRC.

EDIT: My mistake - the movie was just called "Stalingrad". Here's a trailer"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqHzs4PtqIE

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

It's been a long time since I've seen Titanic, but nothing stands out in my memory that was horrendous in the portrayal of First Officer Murdoch.

warspite1

William McMaster Murdoch was not a made up character. He was very real. He served as an officer on board Titanic on that fateful night.

As far as we know from all the witness statements, Officer Murdoch did his duty that night, despite the fact that as an officer he knew he was unlikely to survive the sinking.

Yes there were reports of an officer shooting himself just before Titanic went down, but even if correct, there are no witnesses that can confirm who that officer was.

But Cameron decided it was Murdoch. But that is not the least of it. Because Cameron also decided to make First Officer Murdoch a bribe-taking coward who murdered two unarmed steerage class passengers (Irish naturally) before shooting himself.

Apparently the scenes were altered from the original Cameron dreamed up to make the bribe taking more ambiguous. But the given the way Murdoch throws the money back at Billy Zane's character (and the narrative that goes with it), there is little doubt what was being conveyed - and to suggest otherwise is simply disingenuous.

So this officer, a man who did his duty in helping to save passengers, and has a memorial in his hometown of Dalbeattie in Scotland where he is considered a hero, and where at the time the film was made he had close relatives (nephew) still living, has his name trashed for no good reason than making a buck.

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ORIGINAL: Canoerebel


Had I known of the things you mention when I watched the movie, I would've been chapped beyond measure. Taking liberties with historical figures is what I don't like.

So now you've ruined Titanic for me (mostly - the characters; the depiction of the ship's sinking is excellent). But I haven't watched the movie in many years. May never again.

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

It's been a long time since I've seen Titanic, but nothing stands out in my memory that was horrendous in the portrayal of First Officer Murdoch.

warspite1

William McMaster Murdoch was not a made up character. He was very real. He served as an officer on board Titanic on that fateful night.

As far as we know from all the witness statements, Officer Murdoch did his duty that night, despite the fact that as an officer he knew he was unlikely to survive the sinking.

Yes there were reports of an officer shooting himself just before Titanic went down, but even if correct, there are no witnesses that can confirm who that officer was.

But Cameron decided it was Murdoch. But that is not the least of it. Because Cameron also decided to make First Officer Murdoch a bribe-taking coward who murdered two unarmed steerage class passengers (Irish naturally) before shooting himself.

Apparently the scenes were altered from the original Cameron dreamed up to make the bribe taking more ambiguous. But the given the way Murdoch throws the money back at Billy Zane's character (and the narrative that goes with it), there is little doubt what was being conveyed - and to suggest otherwise is simply disingenuous.

So this officer, a man who did his duty in helping to save passengers, and has a memorial in his hometown of Dalbeattie in Scotland where he is considered a hero, and where at the time the film was made he had close relatives (nephew) still living, has his name trashed for no good reason than making a buck.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've written about Georgians on Titanic. In doing so, I read a great deal of information about what happened and interviewed some of leading experts (at the time, anyhow - around 2002). The hisorical portrayal of what happened is pretty accurate - especially the physical aspects of the ship taking on water, foundering, and breaking up.

Now the love story added to appeal to audiences? That was pretty cringe-worthy. But the movie is a credible portrayal of a momentous historical event.

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

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ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

It's been a long time since I've seen Titanic, but nothing stands out in my memory that was horrendous in the portrayal of First Officer Murdoch.

warspite1

William McMaster Murdoch was not a made up character. He was very real. He served as an officer on board Titanic on that fateful night.

As far as we know from all the witness statements, Officer Murdoch did his duty that night, despite the fact that as an officer he knew he was unlikely to survive the sinking.

Yes there were reports of an officer shooting himself just before Titanic went down, but even if correct, there are no witnesses that can confirm who that officer was.

But Cameron decided it was Murdoch. But that is not the least of it. Because Cameron also decided to make First Officer Murdoch a bribe-taking coward who murdered two unarmed steerage class passengers (Irish naturally) before shooting himself.

Apparently the scenes were altered from the original Cameron dreamed up to make the bribe taking more ambiguous. But the given the way Murdoch throws the money back at Billy Zane's character (and the narrative that goes with it), there is little doubt what was being conveyed - and to suggest otherwise is simply disingenuous.

So this officer, a man who did his duty in helping to save passengers, and has a memorial in his hometown of Dalbeattie in Scotland where he is considered a hero, and where at the time the film was made he had close relatives (nephew) still living, has his name trashed for no good reason than making a buck.

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Soz . I must confess I haven't watched it since the one and only time at the cinema 22 years ago. The taste it left in my mouth has never gone away. So much heroism, so much good about the human spirit on show to be celebrated that night in the midst of such an awful tragedy - but Cameron was only really interested in faux political statements and cheap cliches. Yes there is a place for showing the other side, and what can happen to humans under the most intense pressure, but to use an actual character in that way with no proof to support what he was being accused of is disgusting.

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Agreed that it was insensitive to use a named character. IIRC Cameron himself acknowledged and apologised for it, but some thoughts:

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

- There are far too many independent accounts of a officer shooting himself for it to simply not have happened.

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

- From a quick glace at the screenplay, I think it was intended to be played off as Murdoch having too much to do to be interested in some first class passenger throwing wads of cash around. That wasn't how it came across on screen, however.

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

For Murdoch, the shooting of the Irish character serves to put a actual human cost on the collision with the iceberg. As well as a less subtle commentary on class conflict in the film - after all the overwhelming majority of casualties were third class.

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

The really interesting thing for me is that if you cut the bribery twist out, there's a strong argument based on the historical evidence that:

- Murdoch was armed
- there definitely was shooting, at people or otherwise
- An officer (very likely Murdoch) did shoot themselves as the ship started on it's final plunge.

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I think you're wrong on Cameron's motivations. I think it's the recent Nat Geo documentary where he discusses the extent to which he developed an emotional connection to the story after diving on the wreck, and had a desire to get the story right as a result.

I'm sure he even had an edit done to the film when someone pointed out that the stars at night were wrong for that time of year.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: fcooke

MM - I will take issue with your Shakespeare position..... and every time I hear a Celine Dion song I cringe.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: fcooke

MM - I will take issue with your Shakespeare position. As someone who has read most of his work in the name of 'higher education', he has gotten a huge pass for whatever reason. But comparing Comedies/Tragedies to Titanic is likely unfair. Cameron threw the BS romance in there, and every time I hear a Celine Dion song I cringe.

And I haven't researched....but I am guessing many of the officers were armed. If he wanted to make a statement he could have created a fictional character. 99% of the audience would likely not have been any the wiser and his message would still be delivered. Without offending family and folks who are in the grognard / cranky old men category.

I think a better story would be more focus on management's decision to not fit out enough lifeboats, commercial arrogance, and they could keep a love story (but please not Celine). And ownership didn't learn, Titanic's near sister went down in WW1 (Brittanic) due a single mine impact, but thankfully loss of life was much, much, less. But she still sank in less than an hour.

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I don't think he's ever actually issued an apology - although iirc he's suggested that using a real life character was sub optimal - or something mealy like that.

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The human cost can be shown in so many ways. A 'limey bastard' shooting an unarmed Irish steerage class passenger was not necessary - but simply panders to a certain audience. If this is about human cost - and not childish point scoring - why would Cameron have an Irishman call Murdoch a limey????

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Except of course its the bribery twist that matters so much. Yes Murdoch was likely armed, yes there were reports of shooting - and as you say it is not confirmed that shooting was at anyone as opposed to warning shots as people began to lose control, and an officer (of which one possibility was Murdoch) did choose to shoot himself at the end.

Given the above, if Cameron wanted to show what might have happened - simply use a clearly unidentifiable and made up character.

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- show the gates were open - they were not kept locked to keep steerage class passengers down (I believe Goebbels showed something similar in a film about the Titanic before the war. Although of course the steerage class passengers being victimised were German).

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- chose to ignore the role of the SS Californian - a rather big omission for one so desperate to get the location of every star right.

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing
My first attempt to quote - so apologies in advance

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ORIGINAL: fcooke

MM - I will take issue with your Shakespeare position. As someone who has read most of his work in the name of 'higher education', he has gotten a huge pass for whatever reason. But comparing Comedies/Tragedies to Titanic is likely unfair. Cameron threw the BS romance in there, and every time I hear a Celine Dion song I cringe.

And I haven't researched....but I am guessing many of the officers were armed. If he wanted to make a statement he could have created a fictional character. 99% of the audience would likely not have been any the wiser and his message would still be delivered. Without offending family and folks who are in the grognard / cranky old men category.

I think a better story would be more focus on management's decision to not fit out enough lifeboats, commercial arrogance, and they could keep a love story (but please not Celine). And ownership didn't learn, Titanic's near sister went down in WW1 (Brittanic) due a single mine impact, but thankfully loss of life was much, much, less. But she still sank in less than an hour.

A few thoughts:
- I disagree about the fictional character. Murdoch's character arc in the film combined with his historic role did an excellent job of emphasising the massive emotional trauma that he must have experienced that night.

we will disagree on this one.

- The lifeboat issue is with modern day hindsight. Any contemporary rescues of sinking passenger ships had occurred when another ship was on hand to assist. In those cases, the lifeboats merely ferried passengers from one ship to another. That mindset was reflected in the legal obligations of ships at that time.

Not really - and as I have said I have not researched this one much, but they knew there were not enough boats aboard. And even if ferrying, when the ship sinks in an hour you really cannot 'ferry', particularly in the North Atlantic.

- If you go down the road of being critical of management and leadership, then you run in to the same problem you have with Murdoch with Capt Smith. Ultimate responsibility for the ships actions lay with him, and the general response of Smith (who had a fairly uneventful career) contrasts sharply with that of Lightoller (who IIRC had been shipwrecked twice).

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I don't think he's ever actually issued an apology - although iirc he's suggested that using a real life character was sub optimal - or something mealy like that.

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/5569954.titanic-apology-from-film-director/

Took me literally two second to google that.

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The human cost can be shown in so many ways. A 'limey bastard' shooting an unarmed Irish steerage class passenger was not necessary - but simply panders to a certain audience. If this is about human cost - and not childish point scoring - why would Cameron have an Irishman call Murdoch a limey????

I hold an Irish passport - this was point scoring.

I disagree. It was excellent mechanism to make stark the underlying conflicts across both national and class boundaries of the time. It's not by chance that the vast majority of Titanic survivors were of a specific national and social class.

See above

As for the specific decision to use "limey" for a Scottish character, I think it's acceptable to use in a ship that was overwhelmingly crewed from Southampton. Even more so when there's water at your ankles.

Again - I have not researched this - but sailing from Belfast was she mostly crewed in Southampton? That would seem odd in those days but I love learning.

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Except of course its the bribery twist that matters so much. Yes Murdoch was likely armed, yes there were reports of shooting - and as you say it is not confirmed that shooting was at anyone as opposed to warning shots as people began to lose control, and an officer (of which one possibility was Murdoch) did choose to shoot himself at the end.

Given the above, if Cameron wanted to show what might have happened - simply use a clearly unidentifiable and made up character.

Well, here's some more thoughts:
- It's reasonably likely that there was at least one attempt to "influence" an officer by first class passengers.
- There is a power imbalance between first class passengers and ships officers. Despite the officers authority, actions/allegations by a first class passenger could easily scupper a career. Smith himself gained a positive reputation for his handling of high-profile first class passengers.

As I've said above, a unknown character adds little. With Murdoch, we get a very bitter resolution to a tragic character.

You are making the (incorrect IMO) assertion that anyone but his family and friends knew who he was.

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- show the gates were open - they were not kept locked to keep steerage class passengers down (I believe Goebbels showed something similar in a film about the Titanic before the war. Although of course the steerage class passengers being victimised were German).

Survivor testimony suggests that at least some gates were locked. That specific gate mentioned was near the boat deck of the ship.

You are really not taking the position that people fleeing for their lives took notice of whether gates were locked or not? You are brighter than that.

As for the situation below decks, it was likely absolute chaos:

- Third class had few stewards compared to second and third class.
- Confusion reigned as orders did not get passed down from above (no PA system!)
- Most of third class had boarded three days previously, so were unable to find their way around in a ship that took two weeks to become comfortable moving around in.

One of the main factors contributing to the high mortality for third class was that they would have needed stewards or crew familiar with the ship to guide them to the boats. For a number of reasons, that didn't happen.

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- chose to ignore the role of the SS Californian - a rather big omission for one so desperate to get the location of every star right.

Actually, they didn't. It just didn't make the cut :)

The Californian's lights were actually included by the special effects team in a number of scenes. Unsurprisingly, they get drowned out so as to be effectively invisible

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ORIGINAL: fcooke

As long we don't have to listen to Celine during the pint.....

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/5569954.titanic-apology-from-film-director/

Took me literally two second to google that.

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

As for the specific decision to use "limey" for a Scottish character, I think it's acceptable to use in a ship that was overwhelmingly crewed from Southampton.

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

As I've said above, a unknown character adds little. With Murdoch, we get a very bitter resolution to a tragic character.

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

As for the situation below decks, it was likely absolute chaos:

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Actually, they didn't. It just didn't make the cut :)

The Californian's lights were actually included by the special effects team in a number of scenes. Unsurprisingly, they get drowned out so as to be effectively invisible

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: fcooke

As long we don't have to listen to Celine during the pint.....

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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Yeah it looks like it too. If you are seeking to prove that Cameron issued an apology it would be helpful if you actually printed an apology......good luck with finding that. Apologies tend to have the word apology within the sentence and a few less 'probably's' wouldn't have gone amiss either as they tend to lessen one's feeling of culpability.

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As I said - mealy words - no real apology.

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I can't believe you've missed the point so wildly. It's not about the Scottish officer. It's about the Irish steerage class passenger's use of the word and the audience its pandering to.

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Nonsense. An unknown character still conveys the situation, the hopelessness, the desperation. And you don't know - and nor does Cameron - that Murdoch was a tragic character. Just because he's taken one interpretation of events and added his own 'facts' that doesn't mean he's correct. Ever consider that Murdoch didn't take a bribe, didn't shoot two unarmed passengers and didn't shoot himself???? (and there is no proof he did any of these things). Ever consider that he was an officer, responsible for getting passengers into lifeboats, and that he did that job bravely, to the best of his ability, and acted in the interests of others, despite being fully aware he was unlikely to see another sunrise?

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Cameron did not need to accuse someone - a real person - of something that there is no proof for. You mentioned you had family that fought at Cassino. How would you feel if a film is made of the battle that depicts a British soldier shooting unarmed Italian civilians in cold blood. Except it wasn't just any British soldier - they named your relative as being the soldier that carried out the act; name, rank and serial number. No proof - but then apparently the Court of Hollywood doesn't need any. Not very pleasant is it? But you'd be happy with that?

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Agreed on the chaos front and what was meant to happen and what did happen I won't comment on. However the gates were in place for a reason - and not the reason the film portrayed.

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Can only laugh at that sorry. Here is a guy you are praising because he doesn't want a single star in the sky out of place - and yet one of THE key elements in the death of 1,500 people are the actions of Captain Lord and the SS Californian - and it somehow fails to make the cut.... Every single one of Titanic's officers and crew could - nay should - have been saved but sadly sods law conspired to make it not happen. To not mention the role of the Californian in the story, that this guy supposedly sweated over to make sure it was realistic, is simply unforgivable and completely detracts from any pretence that the story is an accurate representation.

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Tangent: I am reminded of the exchange we had a few years back on Japanese apologies for their conduct during WW2.

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Back on topic:

There was actually a donation to his memorial fund, so wrong on that count.

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Ship owned by a English shipping company based in Liverpool (with a English director) and crewed in a large part by natives of Southampton.

Oh, and Ryan (the Irish character), who doesn't interact with Murdoch prior to this scene, makes the wild assumption that he's English?

That the line you're going for?

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

A more detailed study of developments following the collision actually highlights that Murdoch was far more proficient at launch lifeboats on his side of the ship that his colleagues on the opposite side.

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Argumentum ad passions aside (yes had to Google that one to check) this is why we have libel laws, and the defences associated with them.

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Well, it's worth noting the gates existed to contain third class passengers for the purposes of disease and immigration had they ever reached America.

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ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I actually think it was a sensible decision to cut Lord and the Californian. Elsewise it becomes easy to attribute "blame" (for want of a better word) on the tragedy, when in fact the root cause was pure hubris.

Given that the context of the story that has to fit within the confines of a feature movie, the omission of the Californian makes sense. Just can't squeeze everything into a movie, sadly. Thankfully, we've books for that.

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

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ORIGINAL: Lovejoy

Getting back to Midway, I think I'll go see it. The air CGI scenes that people have mentioned are concerning, but as I've said elsewhere, the CGI-ships seem correct for class and period. Yorktown Class CVs that actually look like Yorktown Class CVs, and I spotted a Northampton Class CA that looked pretty good. No movie is entirely accurate, and even the 1976 Midway film (one of my favorites) used footage from different battles that was noticeably not from the actual battle (A Hellcat crashing aboard an Essex-class CV). Maybe the best we can hope for is that the directors don't butcher things too badly.

I'll also give Roland Emmerich the benefit of the doubt as far as making a good movie goes; I've enjoyed a lot of his films.

I just hope this movie doesn't make me hate Woody Harrelson. I didn't think he'd make a good Nimitz when his role was announced, but after watching him in The Highwaymen with Kevin Costner, I have a little more confidence.

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If you have something to say then please say it. Cryptic and, on their own, meaningless comments like that neither help nor further the current debate.

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How much did Titanic make? What was the donation? But its not about money. It's about reputation - its about rubbishing someone's existence. How little would it have cost - but how much more would it have meant to have added a proper apology to the DVD? Sadly TV and Film are for many people, their history. They know what happened on Titanic cos they seen the film.

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Limey's as far as I'm aware, aren't necessarily English. They are British. Limey is an American slang term for British sailors. The Irish have their own words for Britons. Why did Mr I'm-so-desperate-to-get-this-film-right-I'm-going-to-personally-place-every-star-in-the-sky Cameron feel the need for Tommy (an Irish Character) to use an American slang term for the British before being shot, unarmed, while pleading for the chance to live (as though the actions of Murdoch were the cause of that situation )?

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...and was this fact - and Murdoch's contribution - highlighted in the film? Or did Cameron simply choose to highlight the bribe taking going on so that he could have his dramatic ending?

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Yes, it is worth noting. But not in the film because there, the gates have a far better purpose, right?

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How did the libel laws defend Murdoch? So you wouldn't have any problem with a film director depicting your relative as a civilian murderer in WWII Italy?

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But I thought Cameron was being praised for "his attempts to get the story as close to the truth as possible". The Californian is a big part of the story and for the story teller, she's a godsend because she presents the audience with such hope.... only for that hope to disappear in a I-want-to-throw-something-at-the screen type way.

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But no, he's no different to any other story maker with an angle. A Night to Remember managed to fit this hugely important episode into its confines - but in order to push his own agenda Cameron believed it acceptable to cut Californian out. There was no reason for the Hubris element to have got lost with Californian added in, but I guess Cameron didn't want to take the chance on his audience not being able to understand his angle. Bit like the cheap and obvious use of Tommy....

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Limey's as far as I'm aware, aren't necessarily English. They are British. Limey is an American slang term for British sailors. The Irish have their own words for Britons. Why did Mr I'm-so-desperate-to-get-this-film-right-I'm-going-to-personally-place-every-star-in-the-sky Cameron feel the need for Tommy (an Irish Character) to use an American slang term for the British before being shot, unarmed, while pleading for the chance to live (as though the actions of Murdoch were the cause of that situation )?


Unrelated, what would have been your preferred term, were you the screenwriter trying to find a reasonable term that would be understood on the mass market?

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I would have no issue with what you propose. You have no reputation when you're dead (nor are you likely to be bothered about it, you're dead!).

Personally, I find the notion of the descendants of deceased persons fastidiously defending the reputation of their deceased relatives quite bizarre. Even more so in cases where there is some historical debate as to their reputation (say, Stalin as linked above).

To be completely reductionist on the case of Murdoch, there's no solid proof to refute an artistic re-telling of historical events.

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But no, he's no different to any other story maker with an angle. A Night to Remember managed to fit this hugely important episode into its confines - but in order to push his own agenda Cameron believed it acceptable to cut Californian out. There was no reason for the Hubris element to have got lost with Californian added in, but I guess Cameron didn't want to take the chance on his audience not being able to understand his angle. Bit like the cheap and obvious use of Tommy....


Understandable, in my view given that Cameron was likely interested in making his own film and not dogmatically following A Night to Remember.

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Actually, it is related. How would he have known that term and how it came to be? How about the term Cousin Jack, do you know what that means?

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I don't find it bizarre. It is the same thing as getting a medal for a military person, living or deceased, long after the event has occurred. It refers to family honor, or is that a foreign concept to where you are?

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The Californian shutting off the wireless set, from what I saw in the clip, showed one very important reason for the death toll to be so high. Another ship to rescue survivors would have helped a lot.

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I don't find it bizarre. It is the same thing as getting a medal for a military person, living or deceased, long after the event has occurred. It refers to family honor, or is that a foreign concept to where you are?


I'm aware of the concept of family honor, and I find it a very disagreeable concept given that it often clashes with individual freedom and choices.

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Limey is an American slang term for British sailors.

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ORIGINAL: rustysi

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Limey is an American slang term for British sailors.

Haven't read this whole thread, so this is just a little side note.

I've heard the term originated because of the limes' the Brits used in their cocktails. Add to that the practice seems to have originate in malarial regions when the British used it to counteract their distaste for the quinine in their drinks. Don't know if that's true, but at any rate there it is.