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So What Do You Think of SPWaW v5.3

 
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So What Do You Think of SPWaW v5.3 - 6/28/2001 1:19:00 AM   
David Heath


Posts: 3274
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Staten Island NY
Status: offline 		Hi Guys We are hard at work with Combat Leader and we want your input on what you think of v5.3 Thanks for your time.

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Post #: 1
- 6/28/2001 2:10:00 AM   
sven


Posts: 10293
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: brickyard
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by David Heath: Hi Guys We are hard at work with Combat Leader and we want your input on what you think of v5.3 Thanks for your time.
David the silence says they are playing. ;) I think that both upgrades were great. I hope the majority of posters on 'flaws' understand that the best way to look at the criticism would be to make sure it is 'fixed' in cl. Hats off on the quick response time to the 5.2 naysayers. regards, sven

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Post #: 2
- 6/28/2001 2:18:00 AM   
Marder_MatrixForum

 

Posts: 99
Joined: 12/15/2000
From: Austria
Status: offline 		Hello Paul! I like the new version 5.2 (haven´t tested 5.3 - but i´ll do). I think its ok that it is difficult to get a kill with a pistol or a rifle if another unit is behind a wall or a tree. (How should i hit my enemy when his head is behind a tree) And you are right, you are able now to use melee, in other version your units were killed or supressed before they get the possibility to melee! Marder

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Post #: 3
- 6/28/2001 2:20:00 AM   
Mumdaan

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 5/7/2001
Status: offline 		Well, kinda mixed feelings David. I'm sure the changes were made to the damage models for good intentions, but (at least for me) it removed a large chunk of the fun i used to have. Is there a pref setting i could adjust to approximate the play as it was <=5.01 ? Or, do i need to uninstall and go back to an earlier version. (been playing with it all day, and i just cant make it not-tedious to play) :( maybe it was broken and should have been left that way.

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Post #: 4
- 6/28/2001 2:56:00 AM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		I'm of the thinking that it's going to take two or three weekends before most of us can make a real determination of it. If anyone has played 3 or 4 battles with reduced ammo, AI advantage, "hard" battle, and has played both offensive and defensive missions I'd sure like to know, because I hate to evaluate it, if whatever I try it at is too hard or too soft. I'm barely used to the new force multipliers for attacks as it is, much less the still more recent easy/medium (or was that moderate or some other 'mid' type word?)/hard settings. On 5.01 I had never got beyond playing against the Poles, so I had only played 'hard' with the AI advantage on, and so hadn't even evaluated that version to my satisfaction before we moved on (not a complaint). Thanks.

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Post #: 5
- 6/28/2001 3:06:00 AM   
Warrior


Posts: 1808
Joined: 11/2/2000
From: West Palm Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		Having played my little heart out with v5.03 over the past few days, I have to say it's outstanding. I didn't feel that way at first, but I guess this old dog can learn new tricks. I'm in a PBEM game at the moment using v5.01, and the difference is amazing - it's like it's way too easy. But, one thing about v5.03... pleeeeeze give me more artillery ammo. :D And a note for designers: if you're used to using beefed-up defense settings for v5.01, don't do it in v5.03 - you won't need them. [ June 27, 2001: Message edited by: Warrior ]

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Post #: 6
- 6/28/2001 3:32:00 AM   
Panzer Commander

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 8/7/2000
Status: offline 		I just finished a AI battle (me as a Russian defender vs a Finland "AI" attacker) I must say that 5.3 can lead to some nail biting as my troops try to stop wave after wave of ski troops. The rifles/smg/etc as a supression tool can be interesting. My infantry were slowing the advance from their entrenchments giving me time to bring my mortars to bear to cause massive retreats. I was also using my AAMG and HMG teams very effectively from a hill top to pick off units. I have not played as attacker yet but after seeing my Cossaks from their entrenchments hold off 4-6 ski units without taking any hits leads me to believe I will be in for a very hard time. The use of artillery to suppress while overrunning/meleeing will probably be the tactic of choice. It is much different from the 4.5-5.1 versions but it is still the best game out there.

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Post #: 7
- 6/28/2001 3:41:00 AM   
Mark Ezra

 

Posts: 340
Joined: 12/29/2000
From: Jasmin Ranch, Acton CA
Status: offline 		V5.3 is strikes an excellent balance of inf tougness/survivability and inf weapon accuracy/destructive power. It all adds up to great playability. Great job, Matrix...Now on to CL/CA...!

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Post #: 8
- 6/28/2001 4:13:00 AM   
General Mayhem

 

Posts: 180
Joined: 6/13/2001
From: Country of six thousand lakes and one truth
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Warrior: Having played my little heart out with v5.03 over the past few days, I have to say it's outstanding. I didn't feel that way at first, but I guess this old dog can learn new tricks. I'm in a PBEM game at the moment using v5.01, and the difference is amazing - it's like it's way too easy. But, one thing about v5.03... pleeeeeze give me more artillery ammo. :D And a note for designers: if you're used to using beefed-up defense settings for v5.01, don't do it in v5.03 - you won't need them. [ June 27, 2001: Message edited by: Warrior ]
The really good side of 5.02 and 5.03 is that infantry is no more helpless mass of ecoplasm that is blasted away by infanty who shoots first and best from the next hex. I atleast feel really positive, as infantry now it is right place. It is hard to kill just with rifles and even with MMGS if it stays put in terrain with good coverage but if infantry moves and gets to open area where somebody can target it with a fully automatic weapon.... I just played two games US vs Jap with 5.02 and 5.03. In both games killed lot of Japs, altough I have to say it took lot of bitter fighting on both sides. To my surpise I won both, altough 2/3 of time I felt I was losing. Most of credit of kills goes to mmgs, engineers and M3/M2 tanks with machineguns. Still, I can't really use them alone, infantry is still must. Combined arms tactic is only that really seems to have realistic chance to work. Really good side now is also that units don't get swiped off too easily. They can be close useless and routed, but it doesn't mean they're all soon dead. I even *had* to use melee and overrun finally. Feels realistic to me :D

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Post #: 9
- 6/28/2001 4:30:00 AM   
Panzer Leo

 

Posts: 526
Joined: 6/13/2001
From: Braunschweig/Germany
Status: offline 		Well, just don't know how to say...the infantry is back !!! Forget about the Tigers and T-34s, cause the good old Queen of the battlefield rules again !!! There's nothing like commanding an infantry attack in 5.3 - you made an old Grenadier really happy, thanks guys :D :D :D

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Post #: 10
- 6/28/2001 5:00:00 AM   
JimY

 

Posts: 28
Joined: 5/16/2000
From: St. Louis, MO USA
Status: offline 		I really like 5.3. Tonight I am going to play with the new sounds. Infantry were too tough in 5.2 even in the open. In 5.3 infantry vulnerability is just right. I have played SPWW2 for a long time. Now infantry, rifles and MG's are about the same in both games, but artillery is much better in SPWAW. My favorite part of SPWAW is the detailed vehicle damage report when you hit a vehicle. It may not be realistic, but I get a kick out of knowing that I damaged a hull, radio mast, suspension or even the engine. I like the vehicle breakdown because the vehicle eventually repairs itself. However, I have yet to have a weapon breakdown and repair itself. I am testing this in 5.3. If weapons do not repair themselves, I can merely turn off weapons breaddown. So it is not a big deal.

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Post #: 11
- 6/28/2001 5:09:00 AM   
Warrior


Posts: 1808
Joined: 11/2/2000
From: West Palm Beach, FL USA
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by JimY: I have yet to have a weapon breakdown and repair itself. I am testing this in 5.3. If weapons do not repair themselves, I can merely turn off weapons breaddown. So it is not a big deal.
Most vehicles get repaired by the crews, if possible. But when a weapon breaks, it would usually have to be sent to an ordnance depot for repair.

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Post #: 12
- 6/28/2001 5:12:00 AM   
Figmo

 

Posts: 556
Joined: 5/28/2000
From: Pennsylvania, USA
Status: offline 		I love it -it's working great!! I tried the scenario and it's harder than usual but not like Version 5.2. Thanks - Great Job!!!!! Figmo

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Post #: 13
- 6/28/2001 5:27:00 AM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		5.3 works great...many thanks...... :D

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Post #: 14
- 6/28/2001 6:30:00 AM   
SkyVon

 

Posts: 32
Joined: 6/27/2001
Status: offline 		Oh oh...I may be alone here when I say that it easier now to kill a tank than a soldier. I'm playing the long camp as German, started in sept 39 and am now up to may 42. Been lucky thus far to get decisives thus far (was on 5.2) but now I'll prob be lucky to get marginals or draws even. Somewhere between 5.2 and 5.3 would be better, imo, for infantry hardness. Having to surround an inf unit (with flamepanz, inf and tanks) in a plain desert hex and blast away with all you've got for two turns seems a bit too much.

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Post #: 15
- 6/28/2001 6:36:00 AM   
sven


Posts: 10293
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: brickyard
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by SkyVon: Oh oh...I may be alone here when I say that it easier now to kill a tank than a soldier. I'm playing the long camp as German, started in sept 39 and am now up to may 42. Been lucky thus far to get decisives thus far (was on 5.2) but now I'll prob be lucky to get marginals or draws even. Somewhere between 5.2 and 5.3 would be better, imo, for infantry hardness. Having to surround an inf unit (with flamepanz, inf and tanks) in a plain desert hex and blast away with all you've got for two turns seems a bit too much.
That is not my experience with 5.2 or 5.3. I guess a tank being able to find all the infantry in cover in a hex was 'more realistic'? I prefer tougher infantry(when it is dug in)and tanks not having such a 'good time' with going against dugin infantry. to each their own, sven

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Post #: 16
- 6/28/2001 8:04:00 AM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		Someone see if you can help me here. Everyone keeps talking about 'new sounds'. When I first saw this download I was under the impression that they were not 'new' but were for people who didn't have proper sound cards or what not to make the sound effects sound good. Mine sounded real good, but I decided to move my old sound files and try these. Gave it a small whirl and nothing sounded different, though I didn't go through all the units, just basically listened to vehicle movement and main gun fire. After reading up more through the forums, it seems these really are 'new' sounds. Since my previous download of these files didn't achieve anything I put back the old ones and deleted the new, but after hearing everyone talk like this it makes me wonder if I just haven't caught any of the different sounds, because all I've tried are exactly alike, so I reinstated the new files. Now I'm stuck. Since now I know the new ones are so much larger, I want to go back to the old ones if this really isn't 'new'.

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Post #: 17
- 6/28/2001 8:07:00 AM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline 		IF you want something midway between 5.2 and 5.3 turn artilery vs soft and infantry toughnes to about 115 120 if you want it closer to 5.2 If you want it more like 5.01 turn inf toughness and HE vs Soft to 80, though units in rough and stone buildings will still be pretty tough and MGs will be VERY potant in the open. Lowering rout rally to 75 will help with getting troops to abandon good terrain more easily too. As to the "new" sounds the old sounds are all there, but some new ones are added thanks to some of the kind folks who have posted various additions. IN nearly all cases there can be three sounds for each event - so you sound effects wiz's out therr - keep working! THere are lots of duplicate sounds in there that can be replaced! [ June 27, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Vebber ]

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Post #: 18
- 6/28/2001 8:29:00 AM   
troopie

 

Posts: 996
Joined: 4/8/2000
From: Directly above the centre of the Earth.
Status: offline 		Thanks for the suggestions Paul. And the superhuman crewman are back. There is no way two tankers, having been swept with rifle fire for several minutes, are going to win a melee with 10 infantrymen. Can something be done about that? troopie

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Post #: 19
- 6/28/2001 9:05:00 AM   
soldat31

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 6/8/2001
From: Nashville, TN, USA
Status: offline 		So far, I am very very happy with 5.3. It works very well. Infantry vulnerability is right on target in my mind. It plays great even against inf heavy enemies (Poland '39).

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Post #: 20
- 6/28/2001 10:12:00 AM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline 		What is it about tank crews that they automatically get a yellow streak down their back...Guderian talks of dismounting tankers to fight as infantry when he had to... 50 m is a big area, if 2 guys have a good spot, and the 10 enemy are spead out and uncoordinated they might get lucky, though to win the 10 would have fail two morale checks and teh crew pass two, then get VERY lucky rolling... Remember melee is not necessarily 10 guys making a ring around 2 guys and playing Mortal Kombat...its a mini-firefight inside the hex, all 10 men in a squad will not be able to come to bear on the defenders. crew taking out a squad is fairly common in ASL (well you need like a 2 or 3 and teh squad rolling 10 or more - assuming a 1 against a 4...its a lot more rare in here...

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Post #: 21
- 6/28/2001 11:19:00 AM   
Stukadawg

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 5/7/2001
From: Long Island NY
Status: offline 		It felt about right with the campaign I started (another one, back to '39 again :eek: I think the Poles are getting a little tired of me crossing their border). I'm a few turns into it and I'm playing it "out of the box" (no changes to preferences except starting build points). With 5.01 I had to boost artillery vs. soft by 20% and cut it 20% vs. armor. But I have to admit, after checking out the screenshots and descriptions of Combat Leader and Close Assault, what happens with SP:WaW at this point is less important to me. And where it is at this point is more than satisfactory to me. I still want the MCs but I'm really wanting Combat Leader. And again: Thanks Matrix for breathing new life into my favorite game ever. I'm more a modern combat fan (and medieval fan even moreso :rolleyes: ) so with what I've seen of CL/CA, and your plans for modern warfare versions, I'm not at all worried about SP:MW being scrapped. Hey! Here's an idea, how about a medieval version of CL/CA! :p All my best, \_STUKADAWG_/ "Rowl-ruf... WOOF !!!" the real Stukadawg. translation: "Throw the damn ball already!"

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Post #: 22
- 6/28/2001 11:25:00 AM   
Flashfyre

 

Posts: 330
Joined: 10/6/2000
From: Waynesboro, PA, USA
Status: offline 		What is my impression of 5.3? Hmm.... It's as close to actually being on the battlefield, while still sitting in your recliner with a beer and a bag of chips in your hands! :D :D :D Paul, I think you guys have finally hit the target...realism with playability. Infantry that acts like infantry, artillery that acts like artillery, and tanks that act like tanks...no "superhuman" soldiers, no "useless" artillery, and no "invulnerable" tanks. My congrats on a job well done....even if some of us were a bit quick on the "naysaying" after 5.2 came out. :D

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Post #: 23
- 6/28/2001 11:53:00 AM   
Kerg


Posts: 81
Joined: 6/20/2000
From: Joliet IL
Status: offline 		Maybe I am missing something here. The idea with 5.3 is you now pin down your enemy and then beat him with arty til you can melee with him. When we went to ...hmm...5.1? We changed the game, specifically, arty by adding rarity. All i know as a German is I am lucky to get 1/2 the arty I used too..at twice the cost! So if I now have to rely on arty to help defeat my enemy it becomes very hard when you get so little at so great a cost. ???? Kerg

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Post #: 24
- 6/28/2001 12:15:00 PM   
Tombstone

 

Posts: 764
Joined: 6/1/2000
From: Los Angeles, California
Status: offline 		Life is not always meant to be easy. 5.3 freaking rules. I'm not sure it's perfect (not that anything is), but it is awesome. Part of SPWW2 and SPWAW was about making infantry 'righter' in the SP system. This is a climax in that endeavor. I'm really enjoying it so far... and I'm rapidly changing down the defenses I made in a scenario I'm mostly done with about the first day of the Kursk offensive in SST's sector. Tomo

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Post #: 25
- 6/28/2001 12:26:00 PM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline 		Sounds like you might want join the Tiger Team going over the OOB's. What you describe is one way to do it - basically how the US went from village to village across France, but in the jungles or in Russia it is not always possible. The point is that enemy troops on the other side of a stone wall, down in a gully, or behind a tree, are not going to be mowed down with the ease they were before. The more suppression, the less exposure and the harder to drive off. RIght now it takes about 20 rifle shots to get a "kill chance" against entrenched or "full cover". Assuming your shot hits, then the enemy experience plays its role, elite troops are more canny, Green tropps keep their head up longer. BUt those 20 shots will put typically 40 - 80 supression on him. Often that squad will remain pinned for the next turn. IF 3 guys are hunkered down in tree roots in a woods, how are you going to kill them? You have to find the tree root they are hiding behind and get them. You can't do that from 50m away. Often spraying enough fire around in the vicinity will keep them hunkered down to teh point they can't really do anything and then can be mopped up alter. Same with a foxhle, or a wall. You need about a 3 to 1 numerical advantage now to have a decent chance of carrying a well defended position...and bring a lot of body bags... before if you gamed your fire wel, you could do it with 1 2 or 3 squad advantage over the enemy. A "Shot" from a rifle or LMG is about 5 rounds, so if 5 out of 10 men fire in a "shot" (what you would expect for 75 experience since exp rolls are typically out of 150 max exp is 140) then that is about 25 actual rounds. Predominantly unaimed. There was very little added benefit to being in cover, becasue the old routine gave you so many "free" kills that those determined by being in cover or not were barely noticable. You got 1-2 kills about 33% of the time, maybe 25% of the time in cover, more maybe 10-15 % and missed the rest of teh time My work has been, and continues to be to get the combat arms to operate in their proper relationship. We are now in 5.3 about as close as we are going to get. Now the task becomes honing the OOBs to synch with what is the "final" Comabat model in SP:WaW. There may be one last tweak for the East Front Mega-Campaign but that remains to be seen - it depends on how the changes affects the scenarios already done (100's..!!!!) and would be relatively minor. So now the OOBs can be groomed for what folks think the best data is to o with what many think is the best combat model...at least until it gets some more added for CL...

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Post #: 26
- 6/28/2001 6:22:00 PM   
Kharan

 

Posts: 505
Joined: 5/9/2000
Status: offline 		Ack, infantry being as tough as in SPWW2 sounds pretty scary, because that made tanks in SPWW2 practically useless. IMO, infantry has already been "the thing" to buy, with tanks and artillery being a bit iffy. I hope this won't throw things out of whack. But soon I'll see by myself. A friend told me he had a crew with one man in the open, with a Sherman, a .50 cal MG, a rifle squad and another crew firing it and it took 3 turns to kill the crew. :o [ June 28, 2001: Message edited by: Kharan ]

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Post #: 27
- 6/28/2001 7:20:00 PM   
TheZel66

 

Posts: 210
Joined: 4/6/2001
From: Phila, PA
Status: offline 		I guess the thing that bothers me most is that all the old scenerios designed for "old" infantry are horrible now to play. Try the first scenario after the tutorials that you ship with the game- you know, the late 45 russian vs. green german troops. With only 3 81mm mortars for the russians, its virtually impossible to get anywhere in the game. It might be more realistic, but the game is not fun anymore.. Does 5.1 ship with the cd? if so, I'm going to stick with that, and wait for your new games.

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Post #: 28
- 6/28/2001 7:39:00 PM   
panda124c

 

Posts: 1692
Joined: 5/23/2000
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline 		I have only played one game with 5.3 so far so this may be off the wall. I have noted an increase effectivness of fire from Infantry at higher elevations, particularly MGs. But have not seen any indication of close range being more efficent. I get the impression (again this may be off the wall) that firing at a range of 3-5 I get more kills than at a range of 1. This is the only indicator I can use since we are not privy to the suppression level of enemy troops. Also in this game I took terrible loses form pinned squads. How do you keep an enemy unit suppressed so you can melee??? If it is routed and you fire on it, usually it turns to pinned and fires at you, with what appears to be increased effect. Oh yea I am playing with a standard German Infantry Company with the 50mm Mortar replaced with another MMG, with two AT guns and no tanks. So after killing all the tanks it's an infantry battle. Any suggestions?

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Post #: 29
- 6/28/2001 8:17:00 PM   
gdpsnake

 

Posts: 786
Joined: 8/7/2000
From: Kempner, TX
Status: offline 		5.3 has definitely fixed the problems of 5.2. Thanks. Two problems remain. First. A victory hex SHOULD NOT change hands when an enemy enters the hex filled with defenders. It's irritating to see two crewman enter a hex with an entrenced rifle squad or tanks and see the hex change control. Control is at best 'contested' and should change to neither side's control. This is especially galling on the last turn of a battle. Can a routine be employed to prevent this? Especially if the attacker is eliminated or forced out. I then have to unentrench, move out and back into my own hex. Second, I'm finding infantry able to walk right up to entrenced defenders and armor, getting blasted by MANY 99% shots and still just blissfully assaulting and destroying the defenders. Sure, you have the heroes, but this is happening consistently. As attackers get closer, the effects of rifle and MG fire ought to be supressing/reducing their combat ability a lot. If the attacker 'sneaks up' using terrain/wx/etc and isn't spotted, then fine but just walking up to a couple of tanks blasting away with 3 MG's each against spotted, moving defenders in open terrain and then watching as the squad chucks grenades and blows the tanks away is a little unbelievable when it happens VERY often. Is a future fix planned to increase effectiveness of small arms vice range? Does the pre-assualt check take into account the amount of fire received? Everyone talks about the '50 meter' hex. Does the pre-assualt check take into account the difficulty within that 50 meters to actually close with a vehicle firing at an attacker?

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Post #: 30
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