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RE: August 28th, 1943

 
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RE: August 28th, 1943 - 12/11/2019 7:36:11 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		I’ve known John for over a decade. He has two teenage boys and manages a Subway store. We talk frequently, but mostly when family is at school or when he is between stores as he does extra work for owner who has many franchises to run. He often promises to call but doesn’t as either family or store comes first.
When it comes to warships for either side, he has the research to back that up along with of shipyard capacity done by JWE back when he did DBB. When it comes to Japan’s economy I will take blame as I may have done some tinkering in past versions without thinking through long term consequences enough. We had issues with prior versions that Brian can attest to that required multiple restarts due to fuel and HI issues (ratio of fuel and resources needed to generate HI got out of whack).

(in reply to BillBrown)
Post #: 1801
RE: August 28th, 1943 - 12/11/2019 7:44:52 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		The tinkering of economy in response to HI was done as I didn’t know it was possible to adjust input requirements. Brian and I did a restart into late 42 before discovering there were still issues. I had a learning curve on the Editor for some issues. I accidentally stumbled upon how to change rookie pilot experience during this tinkering. Still learning on Editor as I use it infrequently.

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 1802
RE: August 28th, 1943 - 12/11/2019 7:57:33 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Maybe it is an overdeveloped sense of fair play but the thing that really bothers me about this is that Anachro won a big victory and didn't really get to enjoy it. All of a sudden the other AAR goes dark, the opponent is busy elsewhere and turns have slowed to a crawl. I'm not saying there should be gloating and a victory lap but to take your ball and go home because you lost a battle seems petty and small. This stinks


+1

Especially knowing what most of us have just discovered about the mod and the ability of Japan to play well into the late game without suffering any economic difficulties.

My fur went up the moment the opposition stated they were suddenly very busy, working on a mod and preparing for a new game, just after a CV defeat. Anachro, your time and effort in this game is worth more than a foray into the middle game.



_____________________________

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Post #: 1803
RE: August 28th, 1943 - 12/11/2019 8:04:30 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants_MatrixForum

The tinkering of economy in response to HI was done as I didn’t know it was possible to adjust input requirements. Brian and I did a restart into late 42 before discovering there were still issues. I had a learning curve on the Editor for some issues. I accidentally stumbled upon how to change rookie pilot experience during this tinkering. Still learning on Editor as I use it infrequently.


What issues? If you want someone to understand, please state the details. Was the increased economy too robust to exist on stock oil and resources centres? Were the issues involving crashing the economy?

Anachro has brought up some of the differences but I earlier voiced concern about one of these versions after the George became CV capable and I looked into the mod. With a cursory look around I noticed a few of the oil centres on Java were increased, some resource centres. I never thought to look on the Home Islands.

I did voice to John that this was inaccurate as Japan actually didn't even get the capacity out of the Dutch oil that the devs gave us players in stock. So to add more seemed like real cheese. To add them in the Home Islands is really taking the piss and becomes a HUGE strategic advantage the Allied player needs to understand.

_____________________________

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Post #: 1804
RE: August 28th, 1943 - 12/11/2019 8:21:58 PM   
ny59giants


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Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Somehow the values of fuel and resources to generate HI were increased. By end of 42 I knew something about was wrong. Didn’t know those values could be changed and where to do so. I use Tracker but didn’t see the changes for some time. I think I changed the fuel and resources in response to fix. Next restart showed issues in mid-42. I found the proper fix then. At time there were multiple slots for BTS versions and RA. John may have used one of these versions for the current one being used in this game and mine. Hopefully our work to create a master file will minimize these issues going forward.

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 1805
RE: August 28th, 1943 - 12/11/2019 8:43:58 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants_MatrixForum

Somehow the values of fuel and resources to generate HI were increased. By end of 42 I knew something about was wrong.



I don't understand. What was wrong?

Were oil(fuel)/resources insufficient for the increased HI/LI?

If the increased HI/LI couldn't be supported by the well researched and already generous oil and resources available to Japan after their conquest of the SRA, wouldn't decreasing the HI/LI be the natural response?


_____________________________

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Post #: 1806
RE: August 28th, 1943 - 12/11/2019 9:36:38 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants_MatrixForum
Somehow the values of fuel and resources to generate HI were increased. By end of 42 I knew something about was wrong. Didn’t know those values could be changed and where to do so.

Those can be changed in the "Devices" tab of the native editor on the right side

In stock HI uses 2 fuel and 20 res to produce 2 supply, LI uses 15 res to produce 1 supply, Refinery uses 10 oil to produce 1 supply and 9 fuel. Numbers in the editor are directly those

I suggest you to load up editor for the BTS and for the underlying mod (DBB?) and compare the numbers directly. Then the correct course of action would be to revert everything industry related (production cycles and industry on the bases) to the underlying mod. Or you can chose to live with the "Mod with industry overhaul!" concept and all the associated balance related concerns of other players.

< Message edited by GetAssista -- 12/11/2019 9:38:14 PM >

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 1807
RE: August 28th, 1943 - 12/11/2019 9:47:45 PM   
viberpol


Posts: 838
Joined: 10/20/2005
From: Gizycko, Poland, EU
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants_MatrixForum
Somehow the values of fuel and resources to generate HI were increased. By end of 42 I knew something about was wrong. Didn’t know those values could be changed and where to do so.

Those can be changed in the "Devices" tab of the native editor on the right side

In stock HI uses 2 fuel and 20 res to produce 2 supply, LI uses 15 res to produce 1 supply, Refinery uses 10 oil to produce 1 supply and 9 fuel. Numbers in the editor are directly those

I suggest you to load up editor for the BTS and for the underlying mod (DBB?) and compare the numbers directly. Then the correct course of action would be to revert everything industry related (production cycles and industry on the bases) to the underlying mod. Or you can chose to live with the "Mod with industry overhaul!" concept and all the associated balance related concerns of other players.


In DaBabes B scen 28 supply production from oil was reduced to 0. I've got production of 9 fuel only.

Bottleneck scen 59 has different values meaning it was fiddled with even more:
HI 2 fuel + 25 res produce 2 HI and erm... 0 supplies out.
LI from 20 res = 2 supplies.
12 Oil produces 10 fuel only.
So actually its seems a cut on the supplies part.

BTS (scen 55)
HI 2+20 = 2 supplies + 2 HI
LI 15 res = 1 supply
OIL 10 oil = 9 fuel, 0 supplies
So the strategies of the moders can be quite different... ;)

< Message edited by viberpol -- 12/11/2019 10:04:23 PM >

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Post #: 1808
RE: August 28th, 1943 - 12/11/2019 10:10:42 PM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants_MatrixForum

quote:

When it comes to warships for either side, he has the research to back that up


Hmmm, I'm no expert and certainly don't have the research documentation but don't some of those CVL's seem pretty quick considering the armored flight decks? There seems to be no trade off of speed for armor. And then they convert to full size CV's?

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 1809
RE: August 28th, 1943 - 12/12/2019 12:48:58 AM   
ny59giants


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quote:

I don't understand. What was wrong? Were oil(fuel)/resources insufficient for the increased HI/LI? If the increased HI/LI couldn't be supported by the well researched and already generous oil and resources available to Japan after their conquest of the SRA, wouldn't decreasing the HI/LI be the natural response?


It's your reading comprehension, young man.

(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 1810
RE: August 28th, 1943 - 12/12/2019 1:46:17 AM   
CaptBeefheart


Posts: 2301
Joined: 7/4/2003
From: Seoul, Korea
Status: offline 		Good discussion. It seems the mod's description is off and should be adjusted to warn Allied players. Or, my pet solution would be to say the Two-Ocean Navy Act gets passed on January 19, 1940, not July 19, 1940, resulting in getting all of those Essexes, Iowas, Montanas, Fletchers, Alaskas, Clevelands, Baltimores, Corsairs and Hellcats (maybe a few others as well) six months earlier.

Back to the AAR: Well done, Anachro, considering what you're up against. Thanks for the great entertainment and I hope your game gets back on track.

Cheers,
CB

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(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 1811
RE: August 28th, 1943 - 12/12/2019 4:32:09 AM   
Anachro


Posts: 2506
Joined: 11/23/2015
From: The Coastal Elite
Status: offline 		I would ask that people refrain from personally attacking John or second-guessing his situation and decisions (indeed, refrain from attacking each other). In my exchanges with him up to now, he's been a perfect gentleman; and yes, we're all aware that he can wear his heart on his sleeve through both good and bad times. Sometimes he riles up his opponent through gloating, sometimes he's overly boisterous, but it's all meant in good spirit for a game I've no doubt he truly enjoys.

I say this partially because John has heard on the grapevine some of what has been said here and no doubt he doesn't like the prospect of people attacking him over a mod he put a lot of his own time and effort into for a video game we all love. So if you have comments on the mod, keep it professional, stick to trying to make it a better mod for the purposes its clearly meant for (i.e. the alternate history creating a stronger Japan and IJN within reason), and please post your thoughts in John's new mod page for all to see as all active critiques of merit help make it better. That is far more productive than hiding your critiques behind the secrecy of this thread.

< Message edited by Anachro -- 12/12/2019 4:37:55 AM >

(in reply to CaptBeefheart)
Post #: 1812
RE: August 28th, 1943 - 12/12/2019 4:41:27 AM   
Anachro


Posts: 2506
Joined: 11/23/2015
From: The Coastal Elite
Status: offline 		On a second note, I'm not sure I'm getting a new turn tonight based on John's last email.

(in reply to Anachro)
Post #: 1813
RE: August 28th, 1943 - 12/12/2019 5:28:13 PM   
Bif1961


Posts: 2014
Joined: 6/26/2008
From: Phenix City, Alabama
Status: offline 		Yamamoto knew what he was getting into when he started his mod when after the Pearl Harbor attack he said "I am afraid we have awakened a sleepy giant."

(in reply to Anachro)
Post #: 1814
August 29th, 1943 - 12/12/2019 5:36:06 PM   
Anachro


Posts: 2506
Joined: 11/23/2015
From: The Coastal Elite
Status: offline 		August 29th, 1943

This day contains two key elements. First, around the Marshalls, my carrier divebombers conduct a long-range strike on Kwajalein with middling results against the ships in port there. We hit the CVL Aso many times, but a lot of the 500 lbs GP bombs bounce off her. That said, she is shown to be heavily damaged and on fire when we last see her. We additionally hit some heavy cruisers, which also show heavy damage, but we doubt any of them will sink. In addition, some cruisers and ships have fled northwest towards our subs, so hopefully we'll be able to sink a few more in transit. Unfortunately, our carrier task forces need fuel and are thus retiring to Pearl. We have an AO replenishment convoy on its way to meet them midway, so we might try and conduct a few more strikes on Kwajalein's port. We'll see.

Surely the CVL Aso is very heavily damaged, right? It's taken quite the punishment the last few days.



In China, where we've been slowly overrun, John makes a poor decision to attack a much superior AV opposing force and suffers disproportionate losses. This somewhat makes up for the 400-500 AV I've had trapped in the Southeast. John has a couple of divisions at Kunming, but they won't be in a position to take it anytime soon. We will soon be getting decent supply in by air.


(in reply to Anachro)
Post #: 1815
RE: August 29th, 1943 - 12/12/2019 6:01:11 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3100
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline 		unless those bombs penetrate the decks (true of both the CVL and the CA)they cause some damage but often not major damage. Lots and lots of hits add up though. Sometimes on the CA's you will destroy a turret which takes lots of yard time

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Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to Anachro)
Post #: 1816
RE: August 29th, 1943 - 12/12/2019 6:05:06 PM   
Anachro


Posts: 2506
Joined: 11/23/2015
From: The Coastal Elite
Status: offline 		Yup, none of the hits successfully penetrated the flight deck or the belt armor. A number of devices were destroyed, such as turret/AA mounts and radar. We can only hope the fires plus previous penetrating bombs from the last few days all adds up. It COULD be difficult extracting CVL Aso from port without her sinking. We'll try to revisit with our carriers soon. Would be nice to sink a few CAs.

(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 1817
RE: August 29th, 1943 - 12/12/2019 6:13:44 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

Yup, none of the hits successfully penetrated the flight deck or the belt armor. A number of devices were destroyed, such as turret/AA mounts and radar. We can only hope the fires plus previous penetrating bombs from the last few days all adds up. It COULD be difficult extracting CVL Aso from port without her sinking. We'll try to revisit with our carriers soon. Would be nice to sink a few CAs.

Those ships may not have huge Flotation damage but their System damage has to be very high and moving ships like that is extremely risky. Had they been movable, they should have left when that CA to the northwest did. I think they will either sink from fires or still be in port when your DS returns.

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(in reply to Anachro)
Post #: 1818
RE: August 29th, 1943 - 12/12/2019 6:56:04 PM   
Chickenboy


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Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		Not to mention that the IJA 29th and 69th Divisions are-as of now-combat ineffective with those losses and disablements.

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Post #: 1819
RE: August 29th, 1943 - 12/12/2019 10:54:00 PM   
Bearcat2

 

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Status: offline 		I am not sure what the 4 Aso class CVL's are supposed to represent; all the CVL's built by the Japanese had little deck armor. The Aso's get armor[75-50-0], 36 planes, 33kt at 12,000t, the Zuiho's get no armor[5-5-0] with 31 planes, 28kt at 11262t.



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Post #: 1820
RE: August 29th, 1943 - 12/13/2019 12:00:45 AM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearcat2

I am not sure what the 4 Aso class CVL's are supposed to represent; all the CVL's built by the Japanese had little deck armor. The Aso's get armor[75-50-0], 36 planes, 33kt at 12,000t, the Zuiho's get no armor[5-5-0] with 31 planes, 28kt at 11262t.



I think that is an excellent question to ask of John III over in the mod section. BTW, I believe they convert to full size CV's, keep the deck armor, and sprout another 30 aircraft for a total of 60

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

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Post #: 1821
RE: August 29th, 1943 - 12/13/2019 12:59:16 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearcat2

I am not sure what the 4 Aso class CVL's are supposed to represent; all the CVL's built by the Japanese had little deck armor. The Aso's get armor[75-50-0], 36 planes, 33kt at 12,000t, the Zuiho's get no armor[5-5-0] with 31 planes, 28kt at 11262t.



I think that is an excellent question to ask of John III over in the mod section. BTW, I believe they convert to full size CV's, keep the deck armor, and sprout another 30 aircraft for a total of 60

They just put a huge canvas tent over the flight deck and keep a full strike of 30 aircraft on deck at all times. Pilots have to be trained in tunnel landings.

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Post #: 1822
RE: August 29th, 1943 - 12/13/2019 1:51:22 AM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Pilots have to be trained in tunnel landings.

Sounds kinky.

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Post #: 1823
RE: August 29th, 1943 - 12/13/2019 2:27:18 AM   
Bearcat2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearcat2

I am not sure what the 4 Aso class CVL's are supposed to represent; all the CVL's built by the Japanese had little deck armor. The Aso's get armor[75-50-0], 36 planes, 33kt at 12,000t, the Zuiho's get no armor[5-5-0] with 31 planes, 28kt at 11262t.



I think that is an excellent question to ask of John III over in the mod section. BTW, I believe they convert to full size CV's, keep the deck armor, and sprout another 30 aircraft for a total of 60


Different carrier, those are the G6's [140-60-100] 30planes, 35kts at 14,500t that convert to CV's [140-65-50] 63planes 32kts at 15900


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Post #: 1824
RE: August 29th, 1943 - 12/13/2019 9:01:04 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anachro

Surely the CVL Aso is very heavily damaged, right? It's taken quite the punishment the last few days.



Even though the hits didn't penetrate, the fires may continue to burn, and that will affect system damage significantly. The size of port and amount of naval support will influence too how much it burns and for how long.

Bring more subs in to retreat paths while your CVs refuel and keep recon on the base if you can. Even some night strikes by long range aircraft could be useful.

_____________________________

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Post #: 1825
RE: August 29th, 1943 - 12/13/2019 4:12:32 PM   
Anachro


Posts: 2506
Joined: 11/23/2015
From: The Coastal Elite
Status: offline 		Did I mention I have a Chinese army in India? I won't post much on future invasion plans here until they happen as I worry about opsec given the attention this thread has gotten. We also have our heavy bombers in India systematically bringing airfields in Burma up to 100% damage to affect John's supply there. We haven't struck Rangoon yet given its heavy CAP and our fighters not yet being in range to sweep.



< Message edited by Anachro -- 12/13/2019 4:17:48 PM >

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 1826
RE: August 29th, 1943 - 12/13/2019 5:26:32 PM   
JohnDillworth


Posts: 3100
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline 		Has that Chinese Army upgraded to1943 squads? If so that is a formidable army, if not that is a paper tiger

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Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

(in reply to Anachro)
Post #: 1827
RE: August 29th, 1943 - 12/13/2019 5:28:10 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		621 AV? Ugh... (from a JFB perspective)

ETA: Why haven't you crushed Akyab like a little Japanese bug yet? You've got a land route leading there, beaucoup supply and so forth. Seems like low hanging fruit at this stage of the game.

[4 masked figures burst into Chickenboy's office. Two of them hold him down while one duct tapes his hands together behind his back and another slips a hood over his face. He's roughly brought to his feet and dragged out of the room backwards]

SORRY! SORRY! Was this an OPSEC violation?



< Message edited by Chickenboy -- 12/13/2019 5:32:16 PM >

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Post #: 1828
RE: August 29th, 1943 - 12/13/2019 5:40:01 PM   
Anachro


Posts: 2506
Joined: 11/23/2015
From: The Coastal Elite
Status: offline 		Yes, they are all upgraded 1943 squads. We plan to take Akyab soon. They aren't even max strength yet as the theoretical TOE is something like 800+ squads.

Here's the 1st New Corps TOE. All the devices are fully filled out except for support and '43 squads.



< Message edited by Anachro -- 12/13/2019 5:48:11 PM >

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 1829
RE: August 29th, 1943 - 12/15/2019 1:02:49 AM   
Capt. Harlock


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From: Los Angeles
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quote:

SORRY! SORRY! Was this an OPSEC violation?


Not unless you had revealed something about the Japanese strength at Akyab. You haven't told Anachro anything he couldn't see for himself.

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(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 1830
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