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Advancements & Specialties - 12/17/2019 4:08:16 AM

RandomAttack

Posts: 235
Joined: 7/23/2009
From: Arizona
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Since advancements can't be chosen by unit, I guess you have no choice but to pick one in each category and stick with it? If, for example, you pick to speed through "breakthrough", then all your armor/mech units will be eventually auto upgraded to that. If you later want "heavy armor" your only choice is to build new units from scratch and select that feature? You've lumped upgrades & reinforcements together, so turning them off for a unit isn't much of an option if you are fighting and NEED the reinforcements. Is that correct?

Does the "heavy artillery" specialization really work? I opened the 1943 scenario and attacked the soviet unit one hex south of Leningrad with the German arty inf just south of it-- alone and with the other German units for the first attack-- and got no indication the arty had any impact at all. The defending unit had entrenchment level 2 before and after the attack, with no indication the odds were impacted in any way. Just wondering how you can tell if the effect is actually being applied.

And I've read the manual several times but there are a lot of gray areas. I find the tutorials basically useless as the gent talks so fast and low/guttural I simply can't understand what he's saying most of the time...

Post #: 1

RE: Advancements & Specialties - 12/17/2019 7:14:40 AM

jzardos

Posts: 662
Joined: 3/15/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RandomAttack

Since advancements can't be chosen by unit, I guess you have no choice but to pick one in each category and stick with it? If, for example, you pick to speed through "breakthrough", then all your armor/mech units will be eventually auto upgraded to that. If you later want "heavy armor" your only choice is to build new units from scratch and select that feature? You've lumped upgrades & reinforcements together, so turning them off for a unit isn't much of an option if you are fighting and NEED the reinforcements. Is that correct?

Does the "heavy artillery" specialization really work? I opened the 1943 scenario and attacked the soviet unit one hex south of Leningrad with the German arty inf just south of it-- alone and with the other German units for the first attack-- and got no indication the arty had any impact at all. The defending unit had entrenchment level 2 before and after the attack, with no indication the odds were impacted in any way. Just wondering how you can tell if the effect is actually being applied.

And I've read the manual several times but there are a lot of gray areas. I find the tutorials basically useless as the gent talks so fast and low/guttural I simply can't understand what he's saying most of the time...

Yes, I don't like the reinforcement and tech models. To confining. We need a toggle for certain units to turn OFF reinforcements (i.e. garrison units or units not in the main theater). Not being able to change the type of unit from say assault to anti-tank is unfortunate. Even if you have to pay a small re-tooling fee, would be a key feature.

The "heavy artillery" specialization DOES NOT work. It was suppose to be fixed in the next patch. But the state of 1.04 patch is sketchy at best. I think you might want to wait a couple weeks to a month before playing more or just lower your expectations until most bugs can get addressed. These things take time and it's also the holidays.

< Message edited by jzardos -- 12/17/2019 7:15:46 AM >

(in reply to RandomAttack)

Post #: 2

RE: Advancements & Specialties - 12/17/2019 2:30:41 PM

RandomAttack

Posts: 235
Joined: 7/23/2009
From: Arizona
Status: offline

Assuming I am even interpreting the system correctly, I'm just a little confused about the lumping together of advancements (upgrades) & reinforcements. They are two different things, but are controlled by one setting. The table in the manual (p.57) gives the pecking order of units receiving them, but doesn't explain how it works for each category (how they interact):
- Do you have to be full strength first to get an upgrade?
- Will reinforcements happen first then upgrades, the other way around, or is it a random thing?
- Are the costs significantly different?
- Is all this magic and we should just shut up and be grateful that any of our units are getting "fixed" (other than setting a priority for key units that is)?

IMO, Naval having top billing seems a little weird for the Axis. If I could control it would probably be last-- I can see a lot of points being sucked away there. Understand there are "gamey" solutions like hiding your Navy somewhere safe or disbanding parts of it.

I haven't played a full game yet as I am still struggling to understand all the mechanics, but I have noticed in the 1940 scenario all the armor is "breakthrough" and that tech is at max research-- so if I want to start there I will have to re-jigger the tech priority to "heavy armor" and eventually build new units if I want that advancement. So I take it that "breakthrough" is perceived as the way to go?

I am not a "min-max" player and not really looking for excruciating details, but feel I should be able to understand all the key mechanics. This is a game I can see playing for many years to come, but at the moment I'm often left scratching my head.

(in reply to jzardos)

Post #: 3

RE: Advancements & Specialties - 12/18/2019 2:01:19 PM

RandomAttack

Posts: 235
Joined: 7/23/2009
From: Arizona
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quote:

- Do you have to be full strength first to get an upgrade?
- Will reinforcements happen first then upgrades, the other way around, or is it a random thing?
- Are the costs significantly different?
- Is all this magic and we should just shut up and be grateful that any of our units are getting "fixed" (other than setting a priority for key units that is)?

So does no one know this? Or maybe everyone BUT me knows the answers...but it sure isn't explicitly explained anywhere.

(in reply to RandomAttack)

Post #: 4

RE: Advancements & Specialties - 12/18/2019 3:47:26 PM

Journier

Posts: 349
Joined: 3/28/2010
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I believe you get upgrades as a possibility even if not full strength judging by my play in russia.

Remember a unit can only reinforce 20% a turn. Theres gonna be occasions after reinforce that the unit upgrades with leftover points.

Reinforcement is a proportional cost of the unit I believe.
Tech is I think 10% cost per level? That's stated in manual I thought.

< Message edited by Journier -- 12/18/2019 3:51:27 PM >

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Post #: 5

RE: Advancements & Specialties - 12/18/2019 6:12:39 PM

jzardos

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Joined: 3/15/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RandomAttack

quote:

- Do you have to be full strength first to get an upgrade?
- Will reinforcements happen first then upgrades, the other way around, or is it a random thing?
- Are the costs significantly different?
- Is all this magic and we should just shut up and be grateful that any of our units are getting "fixed" (other than setting a priority for key units that is)?

So does no one know this? Or maybe everyone BUT me knows the answers...but it sure isn't explicitly explained anywhere.

If you read the manual, you should have the answers you need.

(in reply to RandomAttack)

Post #: 6

RE: Advancements & Specialties - 12/18/2019 6:42:55 PM

RandomAttack

Posts: 235
Joined: 7/23/2009
From: Arizona
Status: offline

There is info in the manual that addresses each separately (upgrade speed tied to logistics; repairs up to 20% per turn), but I see nothing about how they INTERACT. Which has priority if both are available? Does all of one happen before the other? Are the production points allocated split down the middle (since there is only one pot for two different systems)? I don't see this addressed in the manual anywhere. And if I ask a bunch of questions and only some of them are answered/partially answered in the manual, telling me to "read the manual" (esp. after I've already said that I've read the manual several times) is not particularly helpful.

(in reply to jzardos)

Post #: 7

RE: Advancements & Specialties - 12/18/2019 7:14:47 PM

Michael T

Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
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Here is what I do. I make every naval unit with a black cross. Then green cross only the units I want upgraded/repaired. And figure out how much that is going to cost me in production. It's the only way I can control it effectively.

< Message edited by Michael T -- 12/18/2019 7:16:49 PM >

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Post #: 8

RE: Advancements & Specialties - 12/18/2019 7:21:23 PM

AlvaroSousa

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Heavy Artillery - lowers entrenchment for that attack with the specialty unit. It doesn't prevent or destroy a unit's ability to entrench. That would be bad for the game and unrealisitc. The largest killer in combat is artillery so it is represented as lowering their defenses and taking effectively 10% more casualties.

Reinforcements - Page 36 and 37 gives the order and specifies weaker units get repaired before other units. I will add a line to page 36-37 about repair then upgrade check.

Upgrades - Follows the same rules as repairs. Upgrades are also part of repairs at the same time. It checks if a unit can be repaired then it checks if it can be upgraded. Please note that reinforcing and upgrading are two items of the same nature. If you are in battle and 12 of your Panzer IIIf get destroyed after this model has been in the field for 7 months your reinforcement might be a Panzer IIIg of IIIh. It isn't that you lost a Panzer III and got a Panzer IV because you got upgraded. Upgrades are also incremental in the formation. The player's control of reinforcements and upgrades is at an operational level not a unit level like most games in which you can reinforce a unit by clicking on it and how much. Units do upgrade even if they are NOT at full strength but if they have upgraded they also have repaired.

I will give you some strategies to help.

Move units that are weak to the rear and set them to repair priority if you really want them back up on a map level 9 supply.

Turn off units using the HQ reinforce options to affect all units within command range. Makes it easy to toggle units on and off for reinforcements

Use Priority sparingly.

Set a port for naval units you don't want to repair and another that you want to repair and maybe another for priority repairs since the toggle is on the fleet level not the unit level.

Naval units are at the top of the list because they require the most production. There are also far less naval units that are grouped into fleets than any other units. So it is far easier to click off 2-3 fleet counters than 20-30 land unit counters at the top of the priority list.

I hope this answers all your questions. If you have any more feel free to post.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to jzardos)

Post #: 9

RE: Advancements & Specialties - 12/18/2019 10:10:53 PM

RandomAttack

Posts: 235
Joined: 7/23/2009
From: Arizona
Status: offline

Thanks Michael T & Alvaro-- very enlightening! I never would have thought that upgrades were incremental like reinforcements-- I assumed that if a unit showed as upgraded that meant the entire unit was upgraded. So if a unit shows as "Breakthrough 1943" it doesn't necessarily mean every point of that unit has been upgraded yet? Or will it not show until it's been 100% upgraded? Thanks again!

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 10

RE: Advancements & Specialties - 12/18/2019 11:22:03 PM

AlvaroSousa

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The unit is upgraded to 1943 but the increments are very small ones abstractly representing those tiny conversions.

In real life if a new tank was introduced or a machine gun it would be slowly filtered into a unit. Not here's your Tigers and MG42 people!!

The advancements are +1 or +2 per level affected by experience or effectiveness. So if you are 1 year behind your opponent it really isn't that much or even 2 years. If you are 3 years it becomes a problem.

ASW tech is more incremental because it affects the battle of the Atlantic. The impact is greater because it is a slightly different combat model vs subs. By 1942 the Germans were beaten by the English at sea. The numbers you see in charts are foolish Americans not taking their advice in 1943.

So ALL units get upgraded at once. It happens slowly over time just like it did in real life.

I want you to focus on strategy not micromanaging.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to RandomAttack)

Post #: 11

RE: Advancements & Specialties - 12/19/2019 12:24:56 AM

RandomAttack

Posts: 235
Joined: 7/23/2009
From: Arizona
Status: offline

Got it! I have no problem with it, it's just not something I can recall ever seeing implemented in quite that way before. Thank you for your patience.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 12

RE: Advancements & Specialties - 12/19/2019 4:57:12 PM

AlvaroSousa

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Joined: 7/29/2013
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You should see what I am designing for the fantasy strategy game I have in mind and how that will work. All my work is based on focusing on thinking not clicking and giving a feel like a general in the field with all its challenges.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to RandomAttack)

Post #: 13

RE: Advancements & Specialties - 12/19/2019 7:11:46 PM

RandomAttack

Posts: 235
Joined: 7/23/2009
From: Arizona
Status: offline

Sounds great! This could just be a personal thing, but I have played a number of wargames that seem to have INCREDIBLY complex COMBAT calculations under the hood and in the cold, cynical world we live in (

) I can't help but be suspicious whether all is working as designed. If I attack a poor old conscript Soviet Infantry Division with my buffed up Panzer Div and get 5:1 odds, with an old-fashioned CRT I easily understand that I rolled a 6 and was just plain unlucky not to destroy it. With all these newfangled hidden math formulas that calculate the impact of a Soviet decreased vodka ration on morale, and 1 Panzer that accidentally ran over Guderian's foot and sent him to the hospital, I never feel really confident that I'm getting "fair" results...

But it's just another cross we wargamers have to bear...sigh.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 14

RE: Advancements & Specialties - 12/19/2019 8:23:36 PM

AlbertN

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
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I am with RandomAttack here. As said 10:1 attacks that net 0 defender losses and 1-2 attacker losses are iffy - but I experience them frequently.

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Post #: 15

RE: Advancements & Specialties - 12/19/2019 11:16:12 PM

AlvaroSousa

Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline

The lucky rolls have been curved so extremes are rare.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to AlbertN)

Post #: 16