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Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome)

 
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Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/21/2019 11:35:29 AM   
Almeron

 

Posts: 60
Joined: 8/4/2017
Status: offline 		My first AAR with Warplan, so let's see how it goes. I wish to give any opportunity for my opponent (Michael T), to react my posts, therefore I will delay my uploads.


T01 actions, and overall strategy

So, the main strategy is to fight west in the following two clear turn, and try to capture Belgium, Holland and Denmark, before the bad weather hits me.

I decide to sent all my main efforts (for an early victory) west, and beat Poland with infantry.
So all my air forces moves west, without any action on east, and the southern panzer corps railed west as well (one infantry corps moves closer to the german-danish border). The second panzer fights around Poznan, and his end hex is in rail hex, preparing for the next turn transport. Some of westwall garrisons are activated, because I need extra muscle early.
My fighters, and panzer units receive extra fuel, keeping their supply high, for the upcoming battles (-14 fuel)

Luxemburg was occupied, before the allied side did that move.

My subs moves to raid, but unfortunately I forgot to place them on raid stance, so they where it badly (next turn).
Post #: 1
RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/22/2019 2:47:31 PM   
Almeron

 

Posts: 60
Joined: 8/4/2017
Status: offline 		T02

Holland invaded, as well as Denmark. Denmark falls quickly (one infantry corps is far enough to take in one turn), and Netherland still falls, by the massive german air forces, and armour corps. Air strikes where divaided by the capital city garrison, and the river line garrison.

In Poland the invasion process is still slow, and my last panzer was railed out, supporting the next turn invasion of Belgium.
17 fuel was used, strengthening the fighters, and armours.






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< Message edited by Almeron -- 12/22/2019 2:48:37 PM >

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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/22/2019 3:47:53 PM   
Almeron

 

Posts: 60
Joined: 8/4/2017
Status: offline 		T03

Belgium falls, all panzers moves into a position to take Lille next turn. Brussels was hit by all german air forces, and allied air power was badly hit, countering my bomber actions.
Poland is still in play, but my troops encircled Warsaw, so next turn will fall (or the next one, but it doesn't matter).

All my fuel point where used, so I decide to by another 50 points (i know, sound expensive, but extra +6% effecticty could be a huge factor), and one panzer corps, what will be ready around 40 mid spring.

The U-boot campaign turned into a disaster, one sub was sunked, and another close to be destroyed.




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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/22/2019 3:54:46 PM   
Almeron

 

Posts: 60
Joined: 8/4/2017
Status: offline 		T03 casulties

Without armour and air support, my troops in Poland fight a grind war, but the allied air forces where hit badly, and with the fall of Belgium, and Holland, France and GB must fight in 1939. There will be no Phony war.






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< Message edited by Almeron -- 12/22/2019 3:55:26 PM >

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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/22/2019 8:44:22 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		!

Nicely done. I did not think it was possible to take Belgium in 3 a turn window like this. But you went all in and it has paid off handsomely. Knocking out the Dutch in a single turn made the difference, and having ALL the luftwaffe there is what made that possible.

Even if Poland takes forever to conquer, it will have been worth it.

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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/22/2019 9:37:29 PM   
Almeron

 

Posts: 60
Joined: 8/4/2017
Status: offline 		Hollands fall almost guarantee. You need really bad luck to fail on T02.
Only need to rail one armour and 3 infantry corps to set them ready on T02. And the air force is the most crucial part. Crossing the river is easy, when 3 Infantry corps attack, even if they have river penalty. And the air attacks should be split between one border infantry unit, and the unit, who defends the capital.The armour corps has enough movement point to hit several time the capital defender unit. Armours route units easy.
And use your fuel.

And Belgium is not hard to capture on the third turn. Brussels northern area is defined only by divisions, and there is a hex, when the german could hit both, without river penalty. 1:8 rate, or even more, deals with those units. The capital is the real crack. However, the trick is to attack with two armour division, and they must have at least 5 movement points, and effectiveness more the 90+
And all the planes attack the capital, use all your fuel, maintaining the effective power.
Germany starts with 40 fuel, what counts as +18 effectiveness for armours, fighters, and for other key units.

And of course all industrial points should be spend on air unity, and armours replacements.

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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/23/2019 1:42:21 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		The German attack in to Belgium really caught me off guard. I was not expecting it on turn 3. Is it normal for clear weather in the West on turn 3 though? Not so sure the plan would work every time, as the weather may throw a spanner in the works. But regardless it worked a treat this time. And my unpreparedness cost me Lille. Won't make that mistake again.

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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/23/2019 1:54:52 AM   
MagicMissile


Posts: 1629
Joined: 10/11/2014
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael T

The German attack in to Belgium really caught me off guard. I was not expecting it on turn 3. Is it normal for clear weather in the West on turn 3 though? Not so sure the plan would work every time, as the weather may throw a spanner in the works. But regardless it worked a treat this time. And my unpreparedness cost me Lille. Won't make that mistake again.


In all my games I always take out Denmark, Netherlands and Luxembourg on turn 3 and it has always been clear weather and the sample is pretty big so I think clear on turn 3 is almost certain.
/MM

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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/23/2019 2:02:56 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Pretty sure the first 3 turns are auto clear, yes.

I had never considered transferring over all the luftwaffe like this to make this happen. That's the secret sauce. And you do not even need both panzers on turn 2 to get this rolling.

This might well be the optimal opening.

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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/23/2019 2:12:06 AM   
MagicMissile


Posts: 1629
Joined: 10/11/2014
From: Stockholm, Sweden
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Pretty sure the first 3 turns are auto clear, yes.

I had never considered transferring over all the luftwaffe like this to make this happen. That's the secret sauce. And you do not even need both panzers on turn 2 to get this rolling.

This might well be the optimal opening.


Yes it is likely to be standard. Personally I am always slightly torn between what a game allow and what was done historically which is a disadvantage when playing a game but this might well be the way to go.

Are there any real drawbacks? I am thinking the allies can wage a better air war with air attacks on German ground troops which the Germans might find it hard to oppose. Also it might be good but as long as it isn’t game breaking good I guess it’s ok.

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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/23/2019 2:24:47 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		I don't see any drawbacks to this nor how it can be stopped. It might delay Poland for a bit, but no big deal.

Possibly you also have to delay Denmark as well, but again, no big deal. Knocking out Belgium early like this is huge.

The only thing the allies could do differently here is the airforce. Doesn't look like the UK was set up on turn 2 to deal with this. Not seeing the fighters at any rate. And I am doubting that even with that it would change the result. It would likely just raise the cost of it doing it.

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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/23/2019 6:34:41 AM   
tyronec


Posts: 4940
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline 		Surprised at so many air losses for Allies, how did that come about ?
Given Axis were using air for ground support would have expected the losses to be closer.


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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/23/2019 9:38:26 AM   
Almeron

 

Posts: 60
Joined: 8/4/2017
Status: offline 		No clue... later the ratio keeps 2:1, favoring the german side. I'm also really surprised, how badly the allied air power could be hit. I always keep my planes on mission only stage, and out from allied fighter range (7+ hex). I another game (as allied), the losses are still high, for my opponent.
Perhaps there is a bug, or... I don't know, but it's more beneficial to keep the fighter at non full support.

And the Belgium rush could be prevented with an easy solution. Just change the starting position for the german armour, placing her in a non rail hex. But, if we talking about balances, well, the french navy is really a big deal blocking the iron ore trade route.

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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/23/2019 9:47:50 AM   
Almeron

 

Posts: 60
Joined: 8/4/2017
Status: offline 		T04-T08


After Belgium fall, the german advance hit Lille, and the unprepared allied lines. The bad weather slows down the german efforts, but armour + air units clear one, or two hex in a turn.
German ground casualties are high, but allied air damage are severe. Maybe Michael will corrects me, but the france, and even GB starts scraping her air forces for production points.
I belive France has only one fighter on T08.






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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/23/2019 11:18:08 AM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		I don't why I am losing the air war so badly. Maybe something has changed. Who knows, only Alvaro. But my air losses were so bad, consistently being 3:1 or 2:1 in German favor, I simply could no longer afford to replace them. So I disbanded most of the French airforce. No choice really after Lille fell so soon.

And my RAF bombers just got hacked to pieces by German Flak, not city flak. Ground unit flak. Yet my own flak has not shot down a single German air factor after literally dozens and dozens of ground strikes.

It feels like a whole new ball game to me since my last game as allied v Tyrone.

And now my opponent wished to deny me my only joy, chaining up my glorious French Navy....



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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/23/2019 11:50:53 AM   
Almeron

 

Posts: 60
Joined: 8/4/2017
Status: offline
quote:

And now my opponent wished to deny me my only joy, chaining up my glorious French Navy....

That navy shot down the entire iron ore route :)

But, with the air war, something is not really balanced. I don't know why I lost just half of allied rate of casualties, maybe there is something about fighter set on mission only stance. Or about giving them fuel.
That's the only setup, what I did, and attack ground troops, of course. Allied fighter where hit (by german fighter) badly, and even german bombers strike back, in 1:1 ratio.
When I started our game with Michael, my expectations were to lose more planes, because I wanted to take Belgium at all cost. The opposite happened.

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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/23/2019 1:53:00 PM   
tigercub


Posts: 2004
Joined: 2/3/2003
From: brisbane oz
Status: offline 		Almeron interesting moves looks like it will pay off! weather will be the phony war? do ya turn! on holidays in the Philippines! but send when you can!

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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/23/2019 2:24:33 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Air losses are due to the fighter double dip.

Send in a Fighter unit to bomb, and another fighter joins in to escort. Defender intercepts with 1 fighter, that fights on par with the first fighter and then proceeds getting mauled by the 2nd fighter.
Almeron taught me the hard way - and he ups with trucks his fighters til the Allies need to ground their fighters as they cannot sustain losses.

There has been a thread already about the 'double dip' business.

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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/23/2019 3:01:27 PM   
Almeron

 

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Joined: 8/4/2017
Status: offline
quote:

Air losses are due to the fighter double dip.


No. This time all fighter where used to bomb units. All casualties came by one vs one fight. No double fighters.

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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/23/2019 4:10:51 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Maybe the problem lies in the bomber being quite capable tbh - it emerged already in another thread by someone else that strategic bombers can take on their own the fighters so...
Just hypothesis.

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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/23/2019 4:25:48 PM   
Chocolino


Posts: 2095
Joined: 2/14/2009
Status: offline 		Amazing - a very quickly executed decisive breakthrough in the west. Interesting to see that it actually can be done. I failed at it in my ongoing game.

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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/23/2019 8:13:02 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		Am very concerned with how the air war is developing here, and glad I'm sitting back for a bit and letting others do beta testing, lol.

I could understand a 3-2 loss ratio, reflecting better tech and experience. And that edge should be gone by the time of the Battle of Britain.

It seems we have flipped the script here entirely in the air war, from the allies having too big an edge to the other way around.

The suggested balance fix to remove the panzers from rails on turn 1 is simple and elegant. I don't like that the Germans can just roll the West like this and see no way to stop it.

As for the French navy, shrug. The Royal Navy can do this just the same and can spare the assets. Germany just has to either shut down the convoy route during the winter or get some air in range to interfere with this. Since the allies can interfere with this convoy at points out of range of that air until Norway falls...

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 12/23/2019 8:19:11 PM >

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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/23/2019 9:18:56 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		It only gets worse for me with bugs. Last turn after a surprise "cold" weather offensive in February that rolled thru half of France I lost a new unit when I deployed it and then hit "undo", poof unit vapourized. Then when I moved a unit in to the hex where the unit got vaporized it disappeared as well. Lucky an undo retrieved that one. I wouldn't be starting another game anytime soon. The game seems more wobbly now than at release.

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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/23/2019 9:40:31 PM   
tyronec


Posts: 4940
Joined: 8/7/2015
From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
Status: offline 		Am not convinced that this strategic approach gains against good defence.
Yes, Axis get Netherlands on T2 and Belgium on T3, but they still have to slog it out against Poland through the winter.
Is that any better than Poland on T2 and Netherlands on T3 and then wait for Cold weather to take Belgium out during the Winter, and if you don't get any Cold weather it is not a disaster.

Attacking France from T4 onwards through mixed weather should be costly, maybe if you get Cold turns you can do some damage, but then you can do that with the 'traditional' strategy too.

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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/23/2019 9:51:51 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		They pay off is down the line in terms of an accelerated French conquest. That is most definitely worth a delay in Poland, if you can pull it off.

That gives Germany most of the 1940 summer season to do things elsewhere. Yugoslavia and maybe Greece and maybe some other things, too. And you have more time to prepare for Barbarossa.

This has knockdown effects basically for the entire rest of the game, all to the benefit of the Axis. Set against that, Poland is pretty small beer.

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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/23/2019 10:19:09 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Well I will naturally play this game out. But I have doubts I will start another until the game settles down. Too many bugs and too many rather drastic changes that get shoved in. Many undocumented. It's kinda like a minefield playing allied ATM.

This cold turn would have cost the Germans a lot. As a fresh UK Armoured Corp hammered some tired German Corp. But if he gets another cold turn between now and the end of April it will be an early conquest of France.





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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/23/2019 10:25:23 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		One thing I find odd is that IIRC the French had numerous tank formations at the start of the war. Certainly more than the UK and maybe even more than Germany. But they don't get a single Armoured Corp at start.

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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/23/2019 10:28:01 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I agree Panzers should be out of rail tbh so that they ought to crash into Poland.

Air War I have experienced that also the Allies can punish the Luftwaffe an amount - I've still to get the grip of it tbh.

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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/29/2019 7:39:02 PM   
Michael T


Posts: 4443
Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		My opponent has resigned or rather in Viktor's words, rage quit. So I will write a short review of events up to the end of the game end.

The German proceeded to attack France pretty much through the bad weather leading up to April 1940. During this period losses for both sides were very heavy. I did manage to shatter a German Panzer Corp. But could not stem the slow methodical German advance during this period. Though his losses were heavy.

Come the clear weather it only took the Germans a couple of turns to take Paris and force the French to terms. This was early June. I had committed 4 UK INF Corp and 1 UK Arm Corp to France. These units were in the process of returning to the UK when France surrendered. However as soon as the French surrendered and prior to the BEF getting back to the UK the Germans launched a surprise Para drop just behind Dover and captured the port. They then transported over a couple of INF divisions. The invasion was supported by the KM.

I had a feeling this invasion was adhoc and opportunistic rather than a planned Sealion. But not certain. Anyway the RN sallied forth (lucky for me it was boosted that very turn with the CV Illustrious). The UK carriers smashed the KM. Sinking 2 BB and shooting up the supporting U-Boats. The turn prior the UK deployed a new Armored Corp very close to the invasion site so they easily rolled up the the German divisions (shattered both) drove right back to Dover which was held by the German Para's. I then withdrew the Armor to the rough terrain adjacent to London. I figured he might withdraw anyhow.

Meanwhile in the Med the Italians surged in to Egypt. They drove right up to Alexandria but did not attack. They also declared war on Vichy North Africa and invaded Tunisia. The Germans also declared war on Vichy France and Yugoslavia. The Italian Navy also was hit by the RN as they had come out to play. They got somewhat hammered. Many Italian ships were badly damaged and a few sunk.

In the following turn the RN lost 3 BB to the Luftwaffe. This surprised me. I had no idea how vulnerable surface units were to land based air. I recalled in my last game how difficult it seemed to actually find them. But the Germans had no trouble this time and a great disaster befell the Home fleet. Lucky our carriers were unscathed.

In the next few turns the Germans did not withdraw from their beachhead but rather reinforced it with a Panzer Corp. But neither side could make any progress. He could not expand his small toehold and I could not eradicate it. The rest of the BEF had returned to the UK and no other invasions had occurred in the UK. Fortress Britain it was.

In the Med the Italian's tried to invade Cyprus, but were sunk. They continued to push in to Vichy North Africa. The situation in Egypt was both sides eyeballing each other between the depression and Alexandria. I observed a bunch of Germans arriving in Italy so I was expecting the DAK to arrive. So I stationed 2 UK CV's between Bengazi and Tobruk.

It was now 16 August 1940. The last turn. I did not see the results. But apparently the Germans tried to run the gauntlet of the RN around Bengazi and Tobruk. All Panzers were sunk. This was the last straw for the Axis. They quit.

It was an interesting game. Challenging for sure. I think under this version life is very tough for the Allies, at least early on anyway.

Perhaps Viktor might tell us things from his side and enlighten me about his overall strategy. As I could not fathom it. He had me wondering what his goal was. I still don't know whether his intention was to just cripple the UK and invade Russia in 41 or to fully conquer the UK in 41 and wait for Russia to attack him in 42. Curious.

Anyway on to the next game.



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RE: Almeron vs. Michael T (Michael T welcome) - 12/29/2019 10:35:40 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		No Yugoslavia?

Surprised your opponent was so intent on Egypt. Just piling on panzers doesn't solve the basic problem here for the Axis: supply.

Unless they are willing to spend a fortune in trucks, they will never crack the Alamein chokepoint. And that eats into your Barbarossa prep.

Once the BEF was safely out of France he probably should have evacuated his British sideshow since it was clear this was never going to go anywhere. I guess he was going for an all in against the UK and once that blew up on him, game over. Moral of the story: don't do an all in on the UK like this unless the UK player makes some kind of serious mistake and lets you take multiple ports in the UK or whatever. Dover isn't a great location to try to develop a UK invasion, either. Had he tried this in Portsmouth, maybe a different story.

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